Review Round 2, 2025 - Brisbane Lions vs. West Coast

[Saucery]

One dog barks at the moon, the rest bark at him.

 

[Tom14]

Yep I probably wouldn't take McGrath either . My point was McGrath is far more consistent in a crap system and could be a lot better. But they're not comparable ,apples and oranges.

What's the best version of McGrath - Starce? As a defensive midfielder a smaller dunkley who doesn't offer the same value in the air or as a target when resting inside F50?

Cadman looks good enough so far but has benefited from being the second or third banana. Will be interesting to see him whenever he's the primary target.

 

[KissKiss]

What's the best version of McGrath - Starce? As a defensive midfielder a smaller dunkley who doesn't offer the same value in the air or as a target when resting inside F50?

Maybe a bit better with run and carry than Starce. Maybe Wilmot but with a few more years. McGrath looks like he can do a lot of lockdown work but also able to rebound pretty well. He also looks like one of the few players at their club that will always do above and beyond what he is asked to (ie good clubman).

I'd say he is a little underrated as a player but wasnt a great choice at pick 1 and gets maligned for that. Just wrong choice for the wrong club at the wrong time

 

[Sproj]

We don't win last year's premiership without Rayner, that says everything. Its a team sport and the best teams have different blokes standing up at different times. When it matters, we have plenty of guys who can step up and Rayner is very much one of them, so you take the quiet games here and there.

 

[Tom14]

Maybe a bit better with run and carry than Starce. Maybe Wilmot but with a few more years. McGrath looks like he can do a lot of lockdown work but also able to rebound pretty well. He also looks like one of the few players at their club that will always do above and beyond what he is asked to (ie good clubman).

I'd say he is a little underrated as a player but wasnt a great choice at pick 1 and gets maligned for that. Just wrong choice for the wrong club at the wrong time

I just don't think his kicking or instincts in space are good enough to ever be a good offensive small defender. Has the speed and is genuinely a good lockdown option, but doesn't really run and carry that well and ball use is just fine to above average. Starce is a much better intercept mark as well I'd say.

 

[p4p1]

Harley Reid is a very talented footballer but he needs to just concentrate on getting possession and making the most of his disposals. Running around flopping, diving and taking cheap late shots only takes away from his value to the team. I hope he had a good look at the way Lachie Neale plays because that’s the way he will make the most of his opportunities.

It doesn't matter at the moment because they get pumped every week but if on the weekend we won by a goal, as a coach or teammate I would be looking at Harley and saying, your 7 FA cost us the game.

 

[morsie]

The fact of the matter is that an excessive number of rules in this sport are subjective and basically requires umpires to be able to read minds.

If we can remove this subjectivity from the rules, umpiring will become easier and it will become more appealing as a vocation.

Another is rules being ignored.My personal bugbear is the throwing the ball rule.Either enforce it or repeal it so that my blood pressure can recover.

 

[martinson]

We don't win last year's premiership without Rayner, that says everything. Its a team sport and the best teams have different blokes standing up at different times. When it matters, we have plenty of guys who can step up and Rayner is very much one of them, so you take the quiet games here and there.

I remember 23 and how we lost it. We don't win 24 without a lot of players . I wouldn't have him up there but the PF against Geelong was a good performance by him and last year was the first year where he realised his value in a few games.

Apart from that I agree. He's going to have quiet periods and during those times I'd prefer if he took more care with his disposal.

 

[p4p1]

Lester killed Jeremy Cameron in the Preliminary Final and he gets him every game. He’ll play on him this week too. The idea that Lester only gets the 4th or 5th best defender is an old canard that used to get trotted out by those who could see he was playing well, early in his late career revival, but didn’t really want to give Lester the credit he deserved. Not in the least bit surprised to see your post liked by NB.

Would you suggest Cameron is Geelong’s fourth or fifth best forward? Lester will pick him up again this week and I suggest he’ll beat him again.

I note the bolded bit at the end of your post On the quiet and realise you are not having a go at Lester. I just don’t know what more he needs to do. He is miles ahead of Payne, no disrespect to Payne, because I thought he’s been good this year. Zoning off beautifully when we have this ball inside 50.

Payne often takes the #1 forward though. Lester does when the matchup is correct IE Jeremy Cameron. Not knocking Lester at all, his form since he has been back in the side is one of the reasons we wont the premiership last year.

 

[Elixuh]

Andy McGrath is what mid to late round firsts are for.

Rayner's consistency is his pressure and tackling. The inconsistent side is his ability to turn momentum and win matches off his own boot. Tell me a player who has that as a consistent trait who plays the same role as Cam.

 

[martinson]

Another is rules being ignored.My personal bugbear is the throwing the ball rule.Either enforce it or repeal it so that my blood pressure can recover.

I think it would slow the game down so much the AFL would be deadset against the strict enforcement policy, and likewise to take the handball out of the game would have most supporters and diehards up in arms.

It's comical the way they let marquee players get away with it all day and then pluck one against a nobody.

 

[martinson]

Andy McGrath is what mid to late round firsts are for.

Rayner's consistency is his pressure and tackling. The inconsistent side is his ability to turn momentum and win matches off his own boot. Tell me a player who has that as a consistent trait who plays the same role as Cam.

No one sensible expects him to turn matches and win games off his own boot consistently and how often has he done that anyway ? I can't remember a game, maybe you could make a case for a handful.

His tackling averages 2.6 a game which is good. He's a player you like to have in your side because of his strength and mercurial qualities when he produces them but I think he's overrated as a game changer.

Still has plenty of time to do it I suppose. He's getting away without a tag in nearly every game unlike our other mercurial players like Cameron, Zorko and Neale have copped over the years. Though someone seemed to mark him very closely on Saturday.

He can't play more M/F time and he does have a difficult role in the forward line . But players of his type generally take a while to work into the season and that's been the case with him every year. You'd have to say 24 was his best year to date.

 

[braddsey]

Probably wrong place to put this but Cam Raynor when compared to other recent No.1 picks.

Andrew McGrath 2016 - Middling at best, has not developed.
Cam Raynor 2017 - Premiership player 2024.
Sam Walsh 2018 - Talented but mostly injured.
Matt Rowell 2019 - Probably as consistent as CR in effort and effect.
JUH 2020 - LOL WOW.
JHF 2021 - Downhill skier.
Aaron Cadman 2022 - OK the kid can play.
Harley Reid 2023 - Man boy.
Sam Laylor - Welcome.

For mine Cam is the best and most accomplished on that list of no.1 draft picks for the last 8 drafts, got a shiny medal to boot.

I'm not sure what's the be gained from comparing #1 year on year. We only had access to the #1 pick in 2017, so the rest is moot. Similarly, each of these players are a product of the team and system to which they played, and the opportunities and development that affords. The only similarity of these players is they were viewed the best junior footballer in their draft year. Horn-Francis was the man-child at North because he didn't want to work in a system that was bloody terrible at the time. Then he went to Port and is much improved. Reid is off the chain because he's bigger than the team he plays for with massive expectation, and the media have made him bigger than the messiah in that market. Sam Laylor won't have the same issues.

The more relevant comparison (if you're so inclined) is the compare against the alternatives from the 2017 draft. Andy Brayshaw, LDU, Adam Cerra, Aaron Naughton, Darcy Fogarty... again all influenced by the system and opportunity presented to them in the clubs they were drafted to. I'd still take Cam, but I'm biased.
Incidentally, the 3 highest drafted players from that draft to have premiership medallions are all Lions. You can throw Jack Payne in the mix too.

Cam does go missing sometimes, but almost all players have good games and bad games. We notice Cam because we have elevated expectations of him. The rest of the media notice him because he was a #1 pick.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Rayner's consistency is his pressure and tackling. The inconsistent side is his ability to turn momentum and win matches off his own boot. Tell me a player who has that as a consistent trait who plays the same role as Cam.

There are also intangibles about a team that are not always apparent to supporters and outsiders.

What goes on in and around the club, not just on the field during a game, can have a significant influence on morale and energy.

It's the old who do you want to go into battle with. A team is always something greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[BuntonRules]

There are also intangibles about a team that are not always apparent to supporters and outsiders.

What goes on in and around the club, not just on the field during a game, can have a significant influence on morale and energy.

It's the old who do you want to go into battle with. A team is always something greater than the sum of its parts.

Exactly. We were a shitshow. Cam Rayner signed a long term contract extension before he had played a game. Significant in establishing our culture, that got us a flag.

 

[Saucery]

I'm not sure what's the be gained from comparing #1 year on year. We only had access to the #1 pick in 2017, so the rest is moot. Similarly, each of these players are a product of the team and system to which they played, and the opportunities and development that affords. The only similarity of these players is they were viewed the best junior footballer in their draft year. Horn-Francis was the man-child at North because he didn't want to work in a system that was bloody terrible at the time. Then he went to Port and is much improved. Reid is off the chain because he's bigger than the team he plays for with massive expectation, and the media have made him bigger than the messiah in that market. Sam Laylor won't have the same issues.

The more relevant comparison (if you're so inclined) is the compare against the alternatives from the 2017 draft. Andy Brayshaw, LDU, Adam Cerra, Aaron Naughton, Darcy Fogarty... again all influenced by the system and opportunity presented to them in the clubs they were drafted to. I'd still take Cam, but I'm biased.
Incidentally, the 3 highest drafted players from that draft to have premiership medallions are all Lions. You can throw Jack Payne in the mix too.

Cam does go missing sometimes, but almost all players have good games and bad games. We notice Cam because we have elevated expectations of him. The rest of the media notice him because he was a #1 pick.

It was a joke Joyce.

 

[tony]

I really need someone to make a gif of Cam kicking the sealer in the prelim to post when anyone criticises him.

Here you go

 

[mpal6]

Yep I probably wouldn't take McGrath either . My point was McGrath is far more consistent in a crap system and could be a lot better. But they're not comparable ,apples and oranges.

The closest comparable one for Rayner is De Goey in my view.

DeGoey goes to the middle in bursts and comes up with the footy when needed, especially in 3rd or 4th quarters. Similarly he uses that breakaway speed really well to kick goals. In spite of all the off-field shenangians, Pies paid pick 5 for him and he's worth that if we look at how his career has panned out with them.

De Goey's best stats appear to be in 2021 for marks, goals (as 25 year old) and disposals, kicks, handballs peak was in 2023 (as 27 year old). In comparison Rayner's best in marks/goals was 2023 and he certainly has upped his disposals/kicks/handballs last year.

If Rayner reaches De Goey's peak output level (minus all off-field shenangians) in the overall career stand point, then he's definitely worth well above McGrath. Rayner's elite is game breaking level and he did that in the second half our 2024 prelim as well. Haven't seen something from McGrath like that yet.

 

[martinson]

The closest comparable one for Rayner is De Goey in my view.

DeGoey goes to the middle in bursts and comes up with the footy when needed, especially in 3rd or 4th quarters. Similarly he uses that breakaway speed really well to kick goals. In spite of all the off-field shenangians, Pies paid pick 5 for him and he's worth that if we look at how his career has panned out with them.

De Goey's best stats appear to be in 2021 for marks, goals (as 25 year old) and disposals, kicks, handballs peak was in 2023 (as 27 year old). In comparison Rayner's best in marks/goals was 2023 and he certainly has upped his disposals/kicks/handballs last year.

If Rayner reaches De Goey's peak output level (minus all off-field shenangians) in the overall career stand point, then he's definitely worth well above McGrath. Rayner's elite is game breaking level and he did that in the second half our 2024 prelim as well. Haven't seen something from McGrath like that yet.

If Cam could produce what De Goey has in his good years I'd be elated. I don't think he has the capacity of De Goey in the M/F imo.

As someone else pointed out you've got to put up with De Goey whereas Cam seems to be a good citizen.

Whilst we're in this window he is one player we need to get the optimum of what he's capable out of. Just to give us a couple of extra goals out of nowhere in big games.

 

[mpal6]

If Cam could produce what De Goey has in his good years I'd be elated. I don't think he has the capacity of De Goey in the M/F imo.

As someone else pointed out you've got to put up with De Goey whereas Cam seems to be a good citizen.

Whilst we're in this window he is one player we need to get the optimum of what he's capable out of. Just to give us a couple of extra goals out of nowhere in big games.

I believe Rayner will never get the opportunity in our midfield to elevate himself to peak De Goey levels. This is purely due to the supply we have in midfield replacements now, Ashcroft brothers, Marshall waiting, Annable incoming, I have high hopes for Fletcher once he fills out as he has all the traits for contested ball win through traffic and breakaway pace on the outside with elite kicking/finishing skills. Not to mention McCluggage and Berry are around for the next 6 years alongside Dunkley.

 

[Nunez]

I believe Rayner will never get the opportunity in our midfield to elevate himself to peak De Goey levels. This is purely due to the supply we have in midfield replacements now, Ashcroft brothers, Marshall waiting, Annable incoming, I have high hopes for Fletcher once he fills out as he has all the traits for contested ball win through traffic and breakaway pace on the outside with elite kicking/finishing skills. Not to mention McCluggage and Berry are around for the next 6 years alongside Dunkley.

This. Fletcher would be a midfielder in most teams. Berry too. Such is the depth and versatility of this team.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Cam more like Cyril Rioli? Not in how they play but the way they impact the game

 

[martinson]

Cam more like Cyril Rioli? Not in how they play but the way they impact the game

Easy on there Nathan.

Perhaps expectations of Cam are too high.

 

[martinson]

This. Fletcher would be a midfielder in most teams. Berry too. Such is the depth and versatility of this team.

You've also got someone like Wilmot who most teams would be trying to elevate to the M/F. Then Zorko who would know what to do if we needed him there in a pressure situation. Lohman potentially has the tank, he gets around the field fairly well.

 

[Dalions]

This. Fletcher would be a midfielder in most teams. Berry too. Such is the depth and versatility of this team.

Interesting little tidbit from Lachie Neale’s press conference today, when asked who he thought would be Captain of the Lions when the new Stadium was ready, he said Jasper Fletcher.