Review Round 7, 2024 - GWS vs. Brisbane Lions

[Kernel Kurtz]

I wanted to think about things a bit before I got on here. I'll start with the highlight of the night and that was the young soldier singing the national anthem with no music and the whole crowd in total silence.

About the game, we were beaten by a younger, faster, fitter, stronger, better coached team. GWS were very good. That has to be said.

We were very bad. Stating the obvious hey? Turnover after turnover, out of position because of it. Bombing deep to a pack, then wasting opportunities with bad goal kicking. The intent to kick the ball lower n sharper in general play is there but were either biting off more than we can chew or under or over kicking them. Skill error after skill error. We looked very tired, but a 5 day turnaround after a hard slog in the wet can't be easy. Another week like last week where everyone was as bad as each other, so it's not worthwhile lowlighting individual players. The frustrating thing is that we don't have bad players. They are just playing badly and bad as a team.

What do we do? Who bloody knows. We have a bit of a run of easier run games now, I think we've gotta hope the slump ends with the team were playing now and get on a form and confidence building run. I'm not getting the slasher out just yet. If things haven't changed by the bye, it's time to do so. Time to test the kids and change things up.

Where does it leave our season? I'm not going to have another heart attack over it, lol. We make the 8 or we don't. That's sport, that's footy. I've said before that a lot has to go right to win a flag and there's been a lot go wrong already. Factors within our control, and factors we can do absolutely nothing about. Teams n players have slumps, some teams just have a shitty seasons. There's no rhyme or reason to it, it just happens. Geelong had an ordinary season last year, Pies had theirs before that. I think we need to lose all expectations for this season. Enjoy the wins we have. Watch the continued development of Wilmot, Lohmann, Fletcher. See Ashcroft return as strong as ever. While I think top 4 is out, making the 8 is now our ceiling this season and anything can happen from there. Not making the 8 will be disappointing but not the end of the world. And definitely not the close of the premiership window.

Yes yes but you never mentioned how good the ribs were

 

[FeastOrFamine]

Pretty embarrassing stat from last night. Not much more we can do when we're unable to keep the ball in F50 or adequately pressure the opposition when they're transitioning the ball from HB. Watching the Giants repeatedly move the ball with relative ease under nearly no pressure from one end to the other was frustrating to say the least.

Team feels stale to me. Need a circuit breaker to freshen things up, potentially in the form of a debutant or a positional change that's come from left field.

 

[LionCub29]

Thankfully the Chicago Bears won the NFL Draft earlier today. After 24 hours not wanting to think about about AFL, I send a heartfelt apology to Jarrod Berry

7

Jarrod Berry

Age

26

Ht

193cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

8.5

3star

HB

8.9

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

7.6

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.1

5star

CL

2.9

4star

D

10.6

3star

K

4.4

2star

HB

6.2

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.8

5star

CL

0.8

3star

(who has been good the last 3 or so weeks) and think his mate Clugga (my favourite player) might be about to get the cold shoulder instead. Never seen Clugga so off, whatever his contract position is it’s very bad for him. Instead of the exquisite skills, he resembled Andrew Braysher’s disposal.

 

[scoman]

Pretty embarrassing stat from last night. Not much more we can do when we're unable to keep the ball in F50 or adequately pressure the opposition when they're transitioning the ball from HB. Watching the Giants repeatedly move the ball with relative ease under nearly no pressure from one end to the other was frustrating to say the least.

Team feels stale to me. Need a circuit breaker to freshen things up, potentially in the form of a debutant or a positional change that's come from left field.

Yeah I think this stat popped up late in the game. Something like 24 - 4 at the time. Enough said really. Disgusting effort from the fwd/ mid brigade.

Edit - Not normally a problem as we have 6 players in the top 50 for tackles inside f 50 for the season so far. But clearly missing last night.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Yeah I think this stat popped up late in the game. Something like 24 - 4 at the time. Enough said really. Disgusting effort from the fwd/ mid brigade.

Edit - Not normally a problem as we have 6 players in the top 50 for tackles inside f 50 for the season so far. But clearly missing last night.

Also comes from a lack of deep inside 50s

 

[Grasshopper17]

Hodge called for it during the game. Clear out the 50 and leave Cameron one on one.

This does not work, has very rarely ever worked and quite frankly I've had a gutful of people suggesting it.

We need our small forwards to actually play like small forwards.

Luke Hodge of all people should know better.



Post in thread 'Fages and the coaching group' https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/fages-and-the-coaching-group.1279600/post-83144700

 

[Big Sauce 21]

This does not work, has very rarely ever worked and quite frankly I've had a gutful of people suggesting it.

We need our small forwards to actually play like small forwards.

Luke Hodge of all people should know better.



Post in thread 'Fages and the coaching group' https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/fages-and-the-coaching-group.1279600/post-83144700

What's the stats, cbf listening to it ?

 

[Grasshopper17]

What's the stats, cbf listening to it ?

No stats, just commentary on how much better our forward line functions when we have a tall forward playing out of the square and our smalls getting up the ground and then charging forward to get front and centre.

That said, the "Telstra Tracker" does keep tabs on who is our "deepest forward" at any specific point in time, and I'd be fascinated to see what our scoring profile looks like depending on who that is. I think one way or the other it would be very enlightening.

 

[notliondown]

this is probably the worst take ive seen, linc does all the little things right, he did have one bad moment tried to hit a pass on the left and it got chopped off and turn over

I don't want to get into a fight with you ML - you rate Linc, I don't.

He had 9 disposals that game. He laid 1 tackle. I'm sorry that just doesn't cut it. He's in the team to be a pressure forward... 1 tackle isn't doing your job.

 

[Viceregal]

The good news is I went to removed myself for a good night's sleep at half time.

The bad news is so did the team

 

[Elixuh]

This does not work, has very rarely ever worked and quite frankly I've had a gutful of people suggesting it.

We need our small forwards to actually play like small forwards.

Luke Hodge of all people should know better.



Post in thread 'Fages and the coaching group' https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/fages-and-the-coaching-group.1279600/post-83144700

This x100. Our smalls don’t play like smalls. Which is fine when everything is humming but when it’s not it’s part of the reason for our efficiency problems. I also personally don’t think our ball movement works for Charlie deep + he just get scragged out with no frees.

Rayner should be rested deep forward in between his midfield time. He is our most natural deep forward.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

No stats, just commentary on how much better our forward line functions when we have a tall forward playing out of the square and our smalls getting up the ground and then charging forward to get front and centre.

That said, the "Telstra Tracker" does keep tabs on who is our "deepest forward" at any specific point in time, and I'd be fascinated to see what our scoring profile looks like depending on who that is. I think one way or the other it would be very enlightening.

I flash back to Charlie deep 3 or so years ago and carving up. I guess that's 3 years ago an not relevant any more.

 

[briztoon]

This x100. Our smalls don’t play like smalls. Which is fine when everything is humming but when it’s not it’s part of the reason for our efficiency problems. I also personally don’t think our ball movement works for Charlie deep + he just get scragged out with no frees.

Yes.

Rayner should be rested deep forward in between his midfield time. He is our most natural deep forward.

No.

Rayner needs to be playing either in the midfield, or high half forward, linking the midfield and forward line.

 

[Fitzroy uppercut]

Gardener is a back man. Swapping with Starcivich who was a junior Ruck Rover can play in the middle and maybe get the ball unlike Rayner who is the most overhyped player in the AFL played a good game of against Melbourne you won’t see That for another 10 weeks. Neale gets bashed every week with no one to protect him and our forwards cannot kick straight if their life depended on it forward Line function Good last year without gardener there why would you change that? Coaching is pathetic? I’ll think a big name needs to be dropped and it should be Hipwood cannot get near the ball and cannot kick either is costing us dearly actually falls over every time he is near it but he won’t. He’ll drop a young player he can’t drop lyons because he does that every other week, lyons is definitely a first 22 player. At least he gets the ball.

 

[Grasshopper17]

One thing that really concerns me about the forward line is that no one is able to get separation on their defenders. Every kick to them they have a defender basically on top off them (or the ball goes over their head).

Daniher and Hipwood are not contested markers and do way better on the lead, pushing up and back with speed and agility to give them selves space. Similar with Cameron his best attribute was always speed and getting away from his man. But either they have all slowed way way down, they arent leading properly to create space, or our game plan is way too stagnant and they only lead once the ball is kicked at them

Yes, we play way too slow. It worked well for parts of the Melbourne game but even that night we hardly set the world on fire converting entries into shots.

We need to bite the bullet and be willing to play faster. Take on aggressive kicks into the corridor. Get some overlap run going with handballs etc. Yes it will come unstuck at times and yes we will get hurt on turnover. Guess what, that's happening anyway. Might as well get it in quickly to a more open forward line, and if it does bounce out of there, well it's no worse than what's happening right now.

It feels like we try to move the ball patiently in an attempt to help us defend should we lose possession. This is something I foretold over a year ago, I didn't think it was the right way to play then and I still don't think it's the right way to play now. Whilst in possession we need to play to score and back our on-ball pressure to be better, and for our team defence to be organised behind the ball should we mess it up.

Ultimately tho it's hard to have any sort of discussion about strategy after Thursday night's performance. This week the conversation has to be about basic effort, which even Fages admitted was inadequate.

These days, it's important for players to have buy-in at a philosophical level as to how they want to play. There were rumours flying around at Freo earlier in the season that there was disconnect in that sense... How things play out for them remains to be seen but certainly they are also struggling to score at the moment.

Without being inside the club it's hard to tell exactly what is going on, but I think there are 4 main reasons as to why things might go wrong:

1. The plan is a good one, and the players have bought into it. But yet we all agree the effort was inadequate, so the players are either hypocrites or they lack the necessary conditioning to carry out the plan.
2. The plan is a good one, but the players haven't bought into it. This would surprise me after 7 seasons of buying in, but I guess it's possible if the message has become stale etc. Either way there needs to be 2-way communication between coaches and players. To be fair I think this has always been one of Fagan's strengths, and I think even his harshest critics would probably recognise this.
3. The plan is a bad one, but the players have bought into it. Ultimately this one is on the coaches. Well done for communicating the plan and getting the players to buy in, but the game evolves so fast that strategies and tactics need to evolve with it. Perhaps it's possible the players came to the realisation mid-game on Thursday night that the plan wasn't so good after all and mentally hit the "off button" as a response.
4. The plan is a bad one and the players haven't bought into it either. This one is a shambles obviously. This is a coaching group who doesn't know what they're doing and a playing group who aren't willing to challenge them either.

Ultimately I think a good plan has 3 main components:

1. Be fun to execute, and great to watch. I know the knee jerk reaction is "no, winning is more important", but have a good think about the reason you played footy when you were a kid, the reason you go to games, heck, the reason you're even on this forum. I doubt those reasons are much different for the players.
2. Be suited to the players you have. No point having a long kicking to contest style if you have a forward line of short people.
3. Be sustainable against the best teams and under pressure. Talking about finals here mainly. Can the plan allow you to win a Preliminary Final?

Certainly I think we are struggling on the #2 front right now. We move the ball slowly before running out of ideas and plonking the ball on Eric and Joe's heads, who we have noted are not great contested marking options. Our ball movement needs to improve, either with better off-ball movement as I've expanded on elsewhere, or, by changing the pace of our attack, and be willing to move the ball faster towards a more poorly set defence.

The latter would also improve #1 I'm sure.

As for #3, our defence I think has actually been pretty admirable much of the time this season, and I think it would actually get the credit it deserves if our forwards took more of their chances. That said, I can absolutely see our defence right now holding up if given the opportunity to play one on one with pressure put on the opposition's ball movement.

So right now the 3 main areas for improvement I see, besides the obvious across-the-board effort levels, are

1. Move the ball faster (easier to train, but higher risk) or with better coherence (harder to train, but if you can get it right you become basically bulletproof)
2. Better forward pressure when the ball hits the ground inside 50. This is all about attitude and might be difficult to change midseason without a bit of a shock to the group, maybe via selection?
3. Better conversion of high probability scoring opportunities. Missing these is such an emotional let down for us, and I'm sure it must be for the players also.

 

[martinson]

Yes, we play way too slow. It worked well for parts of the Melbourne game but even that night we hardly set the world on fire converting entries into shots.

We need to bite the bullet and be willing to play faster. Take on aggressive kicks into the corridor. Get some overlap run going with handballs etc. Yes it will come unstuck at times and yes we will get hurt on turnover. Guess what, that's happening anyway. Might as well get it in quickly to a more open forward line, and if it does bounce out of there, well it's no worse than what's happening right now.

It feels like we try to move the ball patiently in an attempt to help us defend should we lose possession. This is something I foretold over a year ago, I didn't think it was the right way to play then and I still don't think it's the right way to play now. Whilst in possession we need to play to score and back our on-ball pressure to be better, and for our team defence to be organised behind the ball should we mess it up.

Ultimately tho it's hard to have any sort of discussion about strategy after Thursday night's performance. This week the conversation has to be about basic effort, which even Fages admitted was inadequate.

These days, it's important for players to have buy-in at a philosophical level as to how they want to play. There were rumours flying around at Freo earlier in the season that there was disconnect in that sense... How things play out for them remains to be seen but certainly they are also struggling to score at the moment.

Without being inside the club it's hard to tell exactly what is going on, but I think there are 4 main reasons as to why things might go wrong:

1. The plan is a good one, and the players have bought into it. But yet we all agree the effort was inadequate, so the players are either hypocrites or they lack the necessary conditioning to carry out the plan.
2. The plan is a good one, but the players haven't bought into it. This would surprise me after 7 seasons of buying in, but I guess it's possible if the message has become stale etc. Either way there needs to be 2-way communication between coaches and players. To be fair I think this has always been one of Fagan's strengths, and I think even his harshest critics would probably recognise this.
3. The plan is a bad one, but the players have bought into it. Ultimately this one is on the coaches. Well done for communicating the plan and getting the players to buy in, but the game evolves so fast that strategies and tactics need to evolve with it. Perhaps it's possible the players came to the realisation mid-game on Thursday night that the plan wasn't so good after all and mentally hit the "off button" as a response.
4. The plan is a bad one and the players haven't bought into it either. This one is a shambles obviously. This is a coaching group who doesn't know what they're doing and a playing group who aren't willing to challenge them either.

Ultimately I think a good plan has 3 main components:

1. Be fun to execute, and great to watch. I know the knee jerk reaction is "no, winning is more important", but have a good think about the reason you played footy when you were a kid, the reason you go to games, heck, the reason you're even on this forum. I doubt those reasons are much different for the players.
2. Be suited to the players you have. No point having a long kicking to contest style if you have a forward line of short people.
3. Be sustainable against the best teams and under pressure. Talking about finals here mainly. Can the plan allow you to win a Preliminary Final?

Certainly I think we are struggling on the #2 front right now. We move the ball slowly before running out of ideas and plonking the ball on Eric and Joe's heads, who we have noted are not great contested marking options. Our ball movement needs to improve, either with better off-ball movement as I've expanded on elsewhere, or, by changing the pace of our attack, and be willing to move the ball faster towards a more poorly set defence.

The latter would also improve #1 I'm sure.

As for #3, our defence I think has actually been pretty admirable much of the time this season, and I think it would actually get the credit it deserves if our forwards took more of their chances. That said, I can absolutely see our defence right now holding up if given the opportunity to play one on one with pressure put on the opposition's ball movement.

So right now the 3 main areas for improvement I see, besides the obvious across-the-board effort levels, are

1. Move the ball faster (easier to train, but higher risk) or with better coherence (harder to train, but if you can get it right you become basically bulletproof)
2. Better forward pressure when the ball hits the ground inside 50. This is all about attitude and might be difficult to change midseason without a bit of a shock to the group, maybe via selection?
3. Better conversion of high probability scoring opportunities. Missing these is such an emotional let down for us, and I'm sure it must be for the players also.

I'm not sure where to go with all that Grasshopper but the one observation I have is that when we take risks and play quicker it comes off more often than not.

The slowdown and long kicks down the line might stop the opposition scoring for a while but overall doesn't get us far and our team seems to do it with glum acceptance and not the same persistence they had when they were younger and had had little success.

Collingwood were a team like us that everyone said were too slow and not skilled enough and McCrae put the fun back in to it and even pensioners like Pendlebury and Sidebottom bought in . And players like De Goey who was going nowhere and everyone on here said they wouldn't touch with a barge pole is one of the elite players in the game and is carving out a better personal narrative.

It's a risky alternative but I can't see that we can't put a bit of life back in to our players again. They're all young enough.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Yes, we play way too slow. It worked well for parts of the Melbourne game but even that night we hardly set the world on fire converting entries into shots.

We need to bite the bullet and be willing to play faster. Take on aggressive kicks into the corridor. Get some overlap run going with handballs etc. Yes it will come unstuck at times and yes we will get hurt on turnover. Guess what, that's happening anyway. Might as well get it in quickly to a more open forward line, and if it does bounce out of there, well it's no worse than what's happening right now.

It feels like we try to move the ball patiently in an attempt to help us defend should we lose possession. This is something I foretold over a year ago, I didn't think it was the right way to play then and I still don't think it's the right way to play now. Whilst in possession we need to play to score and back our on-ball pressure to be better, and for our team defence to be organised behind the ball should we mess it up.

Ultimately tho it's hard to have any sort of discussion about strategy after Thursday night's performance. This week the conversation has to be about basic effort, which even Fages admitted was inadequate.

These days, it's important for players to have buy-in at a philosophical level as to how they want to play. There were rumours flying around at Freo earlier in the season that there was disconnect in that sense... How things play out for them remains to be seen but certainly they are also struggling to score at the moment.

Without being inside the club it's hard to tell exactly what is going on, but I think there are 4 main reasons as to why things might go wrong:

1. The plan is a good one, and the players have bought into it. But yet we all agree the effort was inadequate, so the players are either hypocrites or they lack the necessary conditioning to carry out the plan.
2. The plan is a good one, but the players haven't bought into it. This would surprise me after 7 seasons of buying in, but I guess it's possible if the message has become stale etc. Either way there needs to be 2-way communication between coaches and players. To be fair I think this has always been one of Fagan's strengths, and I think even his harshest critics would probably recognise this.
3. The plan is a bad one, but the players have bought into it. Ultimately this one is on the coaches. Well done for communicating the plan and getting the players to buy in, but the game evolves so fast that strategies and tactics need to evolve with it. Perhaps it's possible the players came to the realisation mid-game on Thursday night that the plan wasn't so good after all and mentally hit the "off button" as a response.
4. The plan is a bad one and the players haven't bought into it either. This one is a shambles obviously. This is a coaching group who doesn't know what they're doing and a playing group who aren't willing to challenge them either.

Ultimately I think a good plan has 3 main components:

1. Be fun to execute, and great to watch. I know the knee jerk reaction is "no, winning is more important", but have a good think about the reason you played footy when you were a kid, the reason you go to games, heck, the reason you're even on this forum. I doubt those reasons are much different for the players.
2. Be suited to the players you have. No point having a long kicking to contest style if you have a forward line of short people.
3. Be sustainable against the best teams and under pressure. Talking about finals here mainly. Can the plan allow you to win a Preliminary Final?

Certainly I think we are struggling on the #2 front right now. We move the ball slowly before running out of ideas and plonking the ball on Eric and Joe's heads, who we have noted are not great contested marking options. Our ball movement needs to improve, either with better off-ball movement as I've expanded on elsewhere, or, by changing the pace of our attack, and be willing to move the ball faster towards a more poorly set defence.

The latter would also improve #1 I'm sure.

As for #3, our defence I think has actually been pretty admirable much of the time this season, and I think it would actually get the credit it deserves if our forwards took more of their chances. That said, I can absolutely see our defence right now holding up if given the opportunity to play one on one with pressure put on the opposition's ball movement.

So right now the 3 main areas for improvement I see, besides the obvious across-the-board effort levels, are

1. Move the ball faster (easier to train, but higher risk) or with better coherence (harder to train, but if you can get it right you become basically bulletproof)
2. Better forward pressure when the ball hits the ground inside 50. This is all about attitude and might be difficult to change midseason without a bit of a shock to the group, maybe via selection?
3. Better conversion of high probability scoring opportunities. Missing these is such an emotional let down for us, and I'm sure it must be for the players also.

We’ve been trying to move the ball quicker for quite a while now. When we picked up Ah Chee and Birchall Noble noted that one was quick by foot and the other a quick decision maker.

I think it breaks down when we’re not running hard enough up the field with guys like Neale, Oscar, Dunks and others not working hard enough and the ball carrier being too hesitant

 

[Squizz89]

I remember thinking this was horrible viewing live. It’s even worse on replay.

Joe’s Joe, we know that and love him for it but his “care free” ways look far worse when the team is losing.

 

[Mr Ripper]

I remember thinking this was horrible viewing live. It’s even worse on replay.

Joe’s Joe, we know that and love him for it but his laconic, care free ways look far worse when the team is losing.

Aw, man.

 

[BRAB]

Aw, man.

Laconic post Mr Ripper

 

[Squizz89]

Aw, man.

Let me fix that for you.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I remember thinking this was horrible viewing live. It’s even worse on replay.

Joe’s Joe, we know that and love him for it but his “care free” ways look far worse when the team is losing.

Early in the third too so fatigue not an issue

Doubt he would’ve got him but needed an effort

Noticed all these live. Was clear we weren’t up to the fight

 

[M Malice]

Early in the third too so fatigue not an issue

Doubt he would’ve got him but needed an effort

Noticed all these live. Was clear we weren’t up to the fight

Yes, it stood out like dogs testicles on the night, would not have taken much investigative journalism from Nathan Brown to find it unfortunately.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Early in the third too so fatigue not an issue

Doubt he would’ve got him but needed an effort

Noticed all these live. Was clear we weren’t up to the fight

They can always stuff the bounce up, should always chase until the ball is out of the area.

 

[Squizz89]

Early in the third too so fatigue not an issue

Doubt he would’ve got him but needed an effort

Noticed all these live. Was clear we weren’t up to the fight

Yeah agree doubt he would’ve got there. Still a bad look from an experienced, highly paid player though who as you say had no real excuse at that stage of the game to not give effort, given we were still in it.

It should rightly get called out internally this week too. I’m sure he wasn’t the only one though!