News Sam Hayes signs for North Melbourne VFL

[240volt]

Jeez, there is some rubbish in that post! He had a back issue, "totally banged up" is a bit of hyperbole! He was an undoubted talent in that draft, and showed it in that much spoken about debut season. The fact the he got the Ian Baker-Finch syndrome, and we couldnt help him through it, will always be debated. Was it his fault? Was the club to blame?

Now Hayes has been another that has failed to come on. We have since seen both Marshall & Lord develop nicely though, so the debate will continue. I am certainly not going to throw shade on our recruiters though. Sure, there have been a few bombs, but we are def no worse than any other club, with some of our drafting over the last 15 years being pretty damn good

You obviously have no idea how many games he missed with injuries related to before he was drafted.
We picked him up in 09 and he never played a AFL game till round 21 in 2011.
He only played just over 30 games total.

Much easier to blame the club and others on this forum, always very popular with the natives.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Now Hayes has been another that has failed to come on. We have since seen both Marshall & Lord develop nicely though, so the debate will continue.

Marshall is a great example actually. For whatever reason Ken liked him a lot more than he liked Butcher and Hayes, so we backed him in through his early career poor form, and he eventually developed into a good player.

Had Todd Marshall been held to the same standards as John Butcher or Sam Hayes, he could have easily been delisted two years ago and consequently never developed into the player that he is today, and the half of this board that can never see the forest for the trees would have said that was proof that he was never up to it (for evidence, read any thread on this board about Todd Marshall from 2021 or earlier).

 

[longdonkey]

Marshall is a great example actually. For whatever reason Ken liked him a lot more than he liked Butcher and Hayes, so we backed him in through his early career poor form, and he eventually developed into a good player.

Had Todd Marshall been held to the same standards as John Butcher or Sam Hayes, he could have easily been delisted two years ago and consequently never developed into the player that he is today, and the half of this board that can never see the forest for the trees would have said that was proof that he was never up to it (for evidence, read any thread on this board about Todd Marshall from 2021 or earlier).

Yeah I'm not 100% sold on Lord yet. I still have memories of Brendan Ah Chee and Sam Gray being premier midfielders one year in November.

 

[240volt]

Perhaps I need to highlight my sarcasm more vividly when taking the piss at 240volt.

Bloody well said

 

[240volt]

I can’t find any proof anywhere that says Ken has/had a grudge against either Butcher or Hayes.
More fairy tales on this forum than Grimms had.

 

[Shaucob_Burjan]

I understand cutting the losses argument with Hayes and Butcher

But when you don't do the same with shitty small forwards, as in put 50 games of development into rookie drat level players, then you aren't convincing anyone that your're right at all

 

[longdonkey]

I can’t find any proof anywhere that says Ken has/had a grudge against either Butcher or Hayes.
More fairy tales on this forum than Grimms had.

Ah yes but there is also no evidence on BF that Donuts didn't have a grudge against them

 

[El_Scorcho]

You obviously have no idea how many games he missed with injuries related to before he was drafted.
We picked him up in 09 and he never played a AFL game till round 21 in 2011.
He only played just over 30 games total.

Much easier to blame the club and others on this forum, always very popular with the natives.

Butcher being limited to 30 games was categorically NOT because of injury and it's revisionist hogwash to say so. He had some injuries, but he also played plenty of football at SANFL level, quite often while we were playing 1 genuine KPF in the AFL side.

He only played 31 games (and never more than 5 in a row) because Ken Hinkley repeatedly dropped him for a single down game and didn't back him through tough games like every other coach does with every other blue chip KPF prospect.

As Schulzenfest said earlier, if Todd Marshall had been held to the same standard he'd have been delisted 2 seasons ago, and a huge proportion of this board would be telling us he was never good enough.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I dont get why so many are reluctant to believe that maybe Sam just didnt develop as we would have hoped. I dont get why so many are reluctant to believe that he came back in a less than prime condition at the start of the year.

This might be true. But it's yet another tall development failure at Port Adelaide in the 21st century. I guess we can keep blaming the players and eventually we'll stop being so unlucky?

If the best we could hope for John Butcher was him becoming a comparison to arguably the worst long term kpf of the modern era whos played in 1 final in 13 years then im kinda glad we cut our losses with him.

Casboult's career isn't the ceiling, it's the floor. Butcher was a much better footballer and had he gone literally anywhere else he'd have had at the very least a solid KPF career. You could write a book on how to torpedo the development of a key forward with Butcher as your case study.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I understand cutting the losses argument with Hayes and Butcher

But when you don't do the same with shitty small forwards, as in put 50 games of development into rookie drat level players, then you aren't convincing anyone that your're right at all

Just for posterity in this thread

Riley Bonner 93 games under Hinkley
Jed McEntee 32* games under Hinkley
Boyd Woodcock 12 games under Hinkley
Martin Frederick 14 games under Hinkley
Aidyn Johnson 11 games under Hinkley
Jake Neade 66 games under Hinkley
Kane Mitchell 35 games under Hinkley
Sam Gray 96 games under Hinkley
Nathan Krakouer 29 games under Hinkley
Cam O'Shea 59 games under Hinkley
Andrew Moore 36 games under Hinkley
Aaron Young 64 games under Hinkley
Paul Stewart 36 games under Hinkley
Cam Sutcliffe 9 games under Hinkley
Matt Thomas 4 games under Hinkley

Just a touch under 600 games for the low ceiling small brigade.

Couldn't possibly have gotten another 30 games into Butcher or Hayes though.

 

[Tibbs]

You obviously have no idea how many games he missed with injuries related to before he was drafted.
We picked him up in 09 and he never played a AFL game till round 21 in 2011.
He only played just over 30 games total.

Much easier to blame the club and others on this forum, always very popular with the natives.

Meh .. It happens all the time. Clubs are willing to accept the injuries if they can get the player they want. He wasnt "totally banged up," when we drafted him. and in the end, his back injury was the least of his problems ... But go ahead and deflect if it suits your narrative.

 

[240volt]

Ah yes but there is also no evidence on BF that Donuts didn't have a grudge against them

Innocent until proven guilty

 

[240volt]

Meh .. It happens all the time. Clubs are willing to accept the injuries if they can get the player they want. He wasnt "totally banged up," when we drafted him. and in the end, his back injury was the least of his problems ... But go ahead and deflect if it suits your narrative.

Fact is he never played a AFL game from when we drafted him in 09 till basically the end of 2011.
Why was that and please don’t spare me the Hinkley Hogwash.

 

[dirty2]

For crying out loud... It's like children... Every one trying to get the last word in... No Hayes was shit... No Hinkley is shit (he is) blah blah...

 

[El_Scorcho]

Fact is he never played a AFL game from when we drafted him in 09 till basically the end of 2011.
Why was that and please don’t spare me the Hinkley Hogwash.

He was a raw 18yo key forward. It's hardly unusual for him to debut late in his 2nd season. I'm really not sure why you think this is some sort of gotcha. Even if he was injured for his first couple of seasons, i'm not complaining about how much he played then, i'm complaining about the amount he played under Hinkley when our lack of marking targets was killing us.

I didn't spend every changes thread for 4 seasons demanding Butcher's selection despite him being injured. He could have played plenty more than he did.

 

[240volt]

For crying out loud... It's like children... Every one trying to get the last word in... No Hayes was s**t... No Hinkley is s**t (he is) blah blah...

End of the day they are both gone, at least there is still Jed to get excited about.

 

[240volt]

He was a raw 18yo key forward. It's hardly unusual for him to debut late in his 2nd season. I'm really not sure why you think this is some sort of gotcha. Even if he was injured for his first couple of seasons, i'm not complaining about how much he played then, i'm complaining about the amount he played under Hinkley when our lack of marking targets was killing us.

I didn't spend every changes thread for 4 seasons demanding Butcher's selection despite him being injured. He could have played plenty more than he did.

No Gotcha at all, like Hayes it was never going to happen in my opinion.
They will both have supporters and critics and opinions will differ to why they didn’t play more AFL footy.
At the end of the day it never worked out for them at Port or another AFL club.

 

[Puddy]

I dont get why so many are reluctant to believe that maybe Sam just didnt develop as we would have hoped. I dont get why so many are reluctant to believe that he came back in a less than prime condition at the start of the year.

You are 100% right on both points.
However, it was self sabotage that we played Lycett through injury and into retirement for little return and played Teakle for no return at all, while completely ignoring Hayes until we had no other option.

 

[Windy Cindy]

He was a raw 18yo key forward. It's hardly unusual for him to debut late in his 2nd season. I'm really not sure why you think this is some sort of gotcha. Even if he was injured for his first couple of seasons, i'm not complaining about how much he played then, i'm complaining about the amount he played under Hinkley when our lack of marking targets was killing us.

I didn't spend every changes thread for 4 seasons demanding Butcher's selection despite him being injured. He could have played plenty more than he did.

And yet when he was delisted not a single team wanted him, for free, not a single team. Ended up at centrals and did heck all.

and the same for Sam, not a single team, not for the last 2-3 years has a team been interested.

some players just aren’t any good.

teakle Got a game ahead of him, the whole coaching group considered teakle a better option, that’s surely telling you that you are just not up to it.

 

[Phar Ted]

Hayes simply didn't make the grade, time to move on to hopefully better ruckmen.

Comparing Butcher to Todd is so dumb, Todd can actually kick a ball whereas Butcher was nothing but a meme - in our house when he was having a shot for goal we'd all pick either which point or OOF direction he would kick it and that's if it actually hit his boot.

 

[Schulzenfest]

And yet when he was delisted not a single team wanted him, for free, not a single team. Ended up at centrals and did * all.

and the same for Sam, not a single team, not for the last 2-3 years has a team been interested.

some players just aren’t any good.

teakle Got a game ahead of him, the whole coaching group considered teakle a better option, that’s surely telling you that you are just not up to it.

It tells me that the whole coaching group isn't up to it. But then again so is a lot of other stuff.

 

[Tibbs]

Fact is he never played a AFL game from when we drafted him in 09 till basically the end of 2011.
Why was that and please don’t spare me the Hinkley Hogwash.

Mate, you have an agenda, and are twisting details around to suit it. These are the real facts about Butcher:
*He was extremely impressive at the AFL Draft Camp, with his speed (2.99 sec over 20 m) and repeat sprints (24.88 sec)
*He was in the top 28 percent of all players (impressive for a big man).
*He kicked 40 goals for the year for Gippsland & Vic Country in 16 games.
*He was a Vic Country Under-18 representative in both 2008 and 2009,
*He was also an AIS-AFL Academy graduate
*He was widely tipped to be the first key position player to be selected in the 2009 draft.

Tredrea called him a 'super talent,' and his Gippsland coach Aussie Jones, raved about him. So if we didnt select him, he would have gone quickly after.

With the stress fractures in his spine, which was known, he had to be given time to heal before even playing in the sanfl. Then as KPP, he was always going to be given time to develop in the 2's first. So no pre-season in 09/10, and only getting on the park for one sanfl reserves game late in the year. Then still a limited preseason in 10/11. Then in 2011, Rohde had this to say: ''With John we always took the view that he was going to take a while to catch his breath, we just tried to build up his fitness and his core because we knew he'd have problems with his legs if he didn't get his core right.''

True to that, he suffered early hamstring injuries in 2011, no doubt owing to his rehab and limited preseasons - very easy for a player to push & strain a hammy. Finally managing 10 sanfl games, then getting his AFL break late in the season.

What irritates me, is your use of hyperbole!
Firstly, the "we drafted a totally beaten up player" BS! ... He had just starred in his draft year with 40 goals, and starred in the draft camp!
Secondly the sneaky use of "09 till the end of 2011" ... Implying THREE years! He was a skinny tall KPP, and then he played developing games in his second year, with an AFL debut late. Pretty OK for a 20yo KPP, esp considering he entered the system with a back fracture!

No Hinkley hogwash, and none of your BS hyperbole, just basic facts. Who was to blame for his AFL failure? Did his spine stress fractures, and later hip operation affect him? Was he limited by his own mental gremlins? Was he a victim of the Hinkley-Factor? We will never know, but what is clear that he was definitely a young talent that for some reason couldnt reach his potential.

 

[Macca19]

This might be true. But it's yet another tall development failure at Port Adelaide in the 21st century. I guess we can keep blaming the players and eventually we'll stop being so unlucky?



Casboult's career isn't the ceiling, it's the floor. Butcher was a much better footballer and had he gone literally anywhere else he'd have had at the very least a solid KPF career. You could write a book on how to torpedo the development of a key forward with Butcher as your case study.

Yeah but he wasnt. Butcher was a gangly bloke with almost no strength who was regularly caught miles out of position and the worst kicking action we’ve seen.

The fact he didnt get another shot, when third tier KPPs regularly get passed around the league says it all.

 

[240volt]

Mate, you have an agenda, and are twisting details around to suit it. These are the real facts about Butcher:
*He was extremely impressive at the AFL Draft Camp, with his speed (2.99 sec over 20 m) and repeat sprints (24.88 sec)
*He was in the top 28 percent of all players (impressive for a big man).
*He kicked 40 goals for the year for Gippsland & Vic Country in 16 games.
*He was a Vic Country Under-18 representative in both 2008 and 2009,
*He was also an AIS-AFL Academy graduate
*He was widely tipped to be the first key position player to be selected in the 2009 draft.

Tredrea called him a 'super talent,' and his Gippsland coach Aussie Jones, raved about him. So if we didnt select him, he would have gone quickly after.

With the stress fractures in his spine, which was known, he had to be given time to heal before even playing in the sanfl. Then as KPP, he was always going to be given time to develop in the 2's first. So no pre-season in 09/10, and only getting on the park for one sanfl reserves game late in the year. Then still a limited preseason in 10/11. Then in 2011, Rohde had this to say: ''With John we always took the view that he was going to take a while to catch his breath, we just tried to build up his fitness and his core because we knew he'd have problems with his legs if he didn't get his core right.''

True to that, he suffered early hamstring injuries in 2011, no doubt owing to his rehab and limited preseasons - very easy for a player to push & strain a hammy. Finally managing 10 sanfl games, then getting his AFL break late in the season.

What irritates me, is your use of hyperbole!
Firstly, the "we drafted a totally beaten up player" BS! ... He had just starred in his draft year with 40 goals, and starred in the draft camp!
Secondly the sneaky use of "09 till the end of 2011" ... Implying THREE years! He was a skinny tall KPP, and then he played developing games in his second year, with an AFL debut late. Pretty OK for a 20yo KPP, esp considering he entered the system with a back fracture!

No Hinkley hogwash, and none of your BS hyperbole, just basic facts. Who was to blame for his AFL failure? Did his spine stress fractures, and later hip operation affect him? Was he limited by his own mental gremlins? Was he a victim of the Hinkley-Factor? We will never know, but what is clear that he was definitely a young talent that for some reason couldnt reach his potential.

Yeah couldn’t reach his potential because he was banged up.

 

[Duck Farmer]

Hayes was never up to AFL standard that’s why nobody was interested in him at any other club.

If there was a grain of potential in him another club would have picked him up ...

Fair enough. Now apply this logic to Hinkley.