Steps towards Treaty: the Uluru Statement and Referendum Council Report

[Gethelred]

Alright.

We've had the Referendum into the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, and the public rejected it.

From the notes to the Referendum Committee:

The Dialogues discussed who would be the parties to Treaty, as well as the process, content and enforcement questions that pursuing Treaty raises. In relation to process, these questions included whether a Treaty should be negotiated first as a national framework agreement under which regional and local treaties are made. In relation to content, the Dialogues discussed that a Treaty could include a proper say in decision-making, the establishment of a truth commission, reparations, a financial settlement (such as seeking a percentage of GDP), the resolution of land, water and resources issues, recognition of authority and customary law, and guarantees of respect for the rights of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples.

Would you be okay with any or all of the above? What do you think would be a reasonable means of reparations, or do you think reparations are not required at all?

Try and keep it civil from here. The last few pages have been as base as anywhere else on this forum.

 

[Gethelred]

I don't watch enough Sky News to know exactly how much money we as taxpayers already contribute to initiatives to help aboriginal people. But don't you think that if we could see the total amount already paid it would be some staggering figure to which you couldn't honestly say we should be paying a lot more?

Potentially a lot more.

But the other side of it is, it shouldn't really just be us the citizens who should pay; we already contribute some of our income via taxes to first nations initiatives. It's business who operate on first nations lands and pay nothing to them that would need to set something up, and it's them who are the biggest obstacle at present anyway.

 

[ElectricG]

Potentially a lot more.

But the other side of it is, it shouldn't really just be us the citizens who should pay; we already contribute some of our income via taxes to first nations initiatives. It's business who operate on first nations lands and pay nothing to them that would need to set something up, and it's them who are the biggest obstacle at present anyway.

That sounds less like reparations and more like something that has no end date

 

[Gethelred]

That sounds less like reparations and more like something that has no end date

... well, how do you propose to compensate people for the loss of their way of life, for part of their culture, for the removal of their children?

Do you propose we just leave it?

Capitalism cannot put a figure on it, but capitalism can certainly ensure that the descendants of the victims of colonialism are compensated to the point where they're not stuck in poverty traps. The other side of it is also that one thinks the mining companies - of all people - can ****ing afford it.

 

[Carringbush2010]

But we were told that wouldn’t be all about making us pay reparations

On Gethy's ideal about reparation in some way shape or form.

Don't forget, the body could would only advise such an ideal. Any parliament would likely never pass such an ideal into a reality at least from an individual perspective - that'd be political suicide.

 

[faible]

I've no doubt that if we sent lump sums of cash to anyone indigenous, studies done in the decades after will see spikes in death rates among those who were worst off.

Elaborate?

From memory, they've done studies of giving money to homeless people and they actually spend it quite wisely and usually for their long-term betterment. Not on drugs and alcohol which I would take as what you're getting at?

 

[ElectricG]

... well, how do you propose to compensate people for the loss of their way of life, for part of their culture, for the removal of their children?

Do you propose we just leave it?

I don’t resent that we already pay for indigenous programs. But while you put the question rather crudely, yeah I do propose we just leave it.

Given that welfare and specific benefits are and continue to be available to them, I don’t know exactly what future you envision for them. Do you hope that they become full participants in our society and economy? Or something else? If it is the “something else” route then I would like to know what precisely what that is since their pre-colonial way of life is no longer possible and does not conform to their expectations AND we also can’t just doom them to a life on welfare.

 

[ShanDog]

Elaborate?

From memory, they've done studies of giving money to homeless people and they actually spend it quite wisely and usually for their long-term betterment. Not on drugs and alcohol which I would take as what you're getting at?

I've seen info about that but it's always been for low-SES families etc, rather than homeless.

I could be very wrong but I don't see much changing for a person who is already on the extreme margins with no housing, work or education options if they were to receive a small but notable lump sum of money. Occasionally I'll go for a run near the city in Adelaide and come across little tent villages set up in the parklands by indigenous people. These are the kinds of people I worry about the effects of a cash injection. I'm sure many wouldn't experience any significant change, but it would have to be a minor miracle for there not to be some negative repercussions for some.

Even still, what sort of change for the good can we expect from additional payments? Assuming some reparation bill is made law and results in cash payments of something like $20,000 (which, based on quick sums would cost around $15bn) - what does that do for someone at the bottom of the barrel, so to speak? It's not life changing money. It can't permanently solve housing problems for them, nor education. Ultimately it would make the public feel nice about doing something and ease their guilt which actually achieving nothing for those who need help the most.

 

[Gethelred]

I don’t resent that we already pay for indigenous programs. But while you put the question rather crudely, yeah I do propose we just leave it.

Are you comfortable, then, with what this says about you, EG?

You do not see value in culture or religion not your own. You do not see wrong in deliberate attempts by government to remove the racial and cultural identity of people provided it is not happening to you, and see nothing to be made up for knowing that it has happened and is still happening here as long as it is not happening to you.

How does this make you any different from those who support the Chinese government in their persecution of Tibet and Uyghar Islam, EG?

 

[burge13]

Well that's quite a leap

 

[ElectricG]

Are you comfortable, then, with what this says about you, EG?

You do not see value in culture or religion not your own. You do not see wrong in deliberate attempts by government to remove the racial and cultural identity of people provided it is not happening to you, and see nothing to be made up for knowing that it has happened and is still happening here as long as it is not happening to you.

How does this make you any different from those who support the Chinese government in their persecution of Tibet and Uyghar Islam, EG?

I don't agree with deliberate attempts to erase a culture, and I don't agree that it's what's happening in Australia. Nor do I support the terrible things that are done to minority groups by China.

It is my opinion that the outcomes we want for them can only be achieved by largely their adoption of the mainstream Australian lifestyle. It seems irreconcilable that we somehow want to shield them from the systems that have allowed for human flourishing in the West and at the same time ensure they reap the full benefits of those systems.

At the end of the day, where has our culture gone? We go to work and come home to our family who are also exhausted from a day of work, collapse on the couch or study into the evening, spend the weekend catching up on things and maybe try to squeeze in a footy game or something fun, then do it all again starting Monday. Where do we find time to practice anything resembling a culture? We don't, and maybe it's just the price we've opted to pay for our lifestyle and security. Or maybe it's neoliberalism (one problem at a time though). But to suggest we don't pay a huge price to live at our end of the 'gap' isn't accurate, imo.

BTW I'm trusting you to not have an uncharitable interpretation of the above. I'm not suggesting aboriginal people don't work or want to work. I guess my point is that closing the gap can't come without some relaxation on the commitment to preserving the culture.

 

[evolved2]

This link gives some insight into the affect of intergenerational trauma on indigenous Australians and suggests some solutions.

Intergenerational trauma and mental health

Intergenerational trauma and mental health

www.indigenousmhspc.gov.au

 

[Gethelred]

Well that's quite a leap

Why have you taken to not quoting me when responding to my posts, Burge?

 

[Chief]

It is my opinion that the outcomes we want for them can only be achieved by largely their adoption of the mainstream Australian lifestyle. It seems irreconcilable that we somehow want to shield them from the systems that have allowed for human flourishing in the West and at the same time ensure they reap the full benefits of those systems.

To butt in, "the outcomes we want for them" seems pretty proscriptive. What outcomes do we all want for ourselves? Our families? Friends?

Which systems is anyone being shielded from on the wishes of "us"?

At the end of the day, where has our culture gone? We go to work and come home to our family who are also exhausted from a day of work, collapse on the couch or study into the evening, spend the weekend catching up on things and maybe try to squeeze in a footy game or something fun, then do it all again starting Monday. Where do we find time to practice anything resembling a culture? We don't, and maybe it's just the price we've opted to pay for our lifestyle and security. Or maybe it's neoliberalism (one problem at a time though). But to suggest we don't pay a huge price to live at our end of the 'gap' isn't accurate, imo.

The price of just living is getting steeper and steeper. But somehow a certain section of society seems to be getting richer at an increasing pace.

Things like right to disconnect are small ways we can all exert our power to have private time. See the shrieks from the capital owning class in response, and no small number of workers who aspire to become owners.

But if you are in a work long hours, play short hours, that's a form of culture.

 

[burge13]

Why have you taken to not quoting me when responding to my posts, Burge?

That was quite a leap

 

[ElectricG]

To butt in, "the outcomes we want for them" seems pretty proscriptive. What outcomes do we all want for ourselves? Our families? Friends?

Which systems is anyone being shielded from on the wishes of "us"?

Health, happiness, prosperity, meaningful connections, etc. You're right, all the same things we want for ourselves and the people in our lives.

As for the bolded question, there does seem to be a sentiment that if an aboriginal person gets an education, a 9-5 job and a home in the suburbs then they are alienated from their culture, rather than thriving. Education and employment are systems that are available to aboriginal people, and we know they are systems that work. Someone said earlier in this thread something along the lines of "well why should they go to school?". While they're not (imo) systematically shielded from them, I think "we/us" contribute to their lack of confidence in those systems with this growing sentiment that general participation is making an unsavory concession to their colonisers.

 

[Chief]

Health, happiness, prosperity, meaningful connections, etc. You're right, all the same things we want for ourselves and the people in our lives.

OK I see. I didn't see "systems" as the word for those things but no biggie.

 

[ShanDog]

There is definitely friction between the two ideas of closing the gap and preserving the old culture that I don't think many acknowledge. Immigrant groups have had to deal with a similar situation.

 

[Chief]

The life expectancy gap?

Edit:

The agreement including the aims?

3. Objective and Outcomes | Closing the Gap

www.closingthegap.gov.au

1. The outcomes of this Agreement are:
   1. Shared decision-making: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are empowered to share decision-making authority with governments to accelerate policy and place-based progress on Closing the Gap through formal partnership arrangements.
   2. Building the community-controlled sector: There is a strong and sustainable Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community-controlled sector delivering high quality services to meet the needs of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the country.
   3. Improving mainstream institutions: Governments, their organisations and their institutions are accountable for Closing the Gap and are culturally safe and responsive to the needs of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, including through the services they fund.
   4. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander-led data: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have access to, and the capability to use, locally-relevant data and information to set and monitor the implementation of efforts to close the gap, their priorities and drive their own development.
   5. The socio-economic outcomes (listed at Table B).

 

[Chief]

ShanDog - tag for above

 

[ShanDog]

The life expectancy gap?

Edit:

The agreement including the aims?

3. Objective and Outcomes | Closing the Gap

www.closingthegap.gov.au

1. The outcomes of this Agreement are:
   1. Shared decision-making: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are empowered to share decision-making authority with governments to accelerate policy and place-based progress on Closing the Gap through formal partnership arrangements.
   2. Building the community-controlled sector: There is a strong and sustainable Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community-controlled sector delivering high quality services to meet the needs of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the country.
   3. Improving mainstream institutions: Governments, their organisations and their institutions are accountable for Closing the Gap and are culturally safe and responsive to the needs of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, including through the services they fund.
   4. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander-led data: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have access to, and the capability to use, locally-relevant data and information to set and monitor the implementation of efforts to close the gap, their priorities and drive their own development.
   5. The socio-economic outcomes (listed at Table B).

Table B was what I had in mind.

 

[Chief]

Table B was what I had in mind.

OK so, which ones are in friction with preserving culture?

Do you mean preserving language? Traditions? Rituals? Fishing and hunting skills - I don't know if they are culture or not but they seem tied in with land use, so is that what you mean?

I have never looked through the closing the gap agreement and outcomes and all that, but looking now there is one involving cultural education, which I don't think you would have been thinking of as in friction with preserving culture. More are about household safety, child birth weight, appropriate, affordable housing and so on. I'm just flicking back and forth at random.

 

[ShanDog]

OK so, which ones are in friction with preserving culture?

Do you mean preserving language? Traditions? Rituals? Fishing and hunting skills - I don't know if they are culture or not but they seem tied in with land use, so is that what you mean?

I have never looked through the closing the gap agreement and outcomes and all that, but looking now there is one involving cultural education, which I don't think you would have been thinking of as in friction with preserving culture. More are about household safety, child birth weight, appropriate, affordable housing and so on. I'm just flicking back and forth at random.

It depends on how far you want to take the preservation of culture, which is where the friction lies. If you want it to be close to pre-colonial times, then many of those outcomes are simply impossible. It's a game of give and take as you'd expect.

 

[Chief]

It depends on how far you want to take the preservation of culture, which is where the friction lies. If you want it to be close to pre-colonial times, then many of those outcomes are simply impossible.

Who wants to do that?

 

[ShanDog]

Who wants to do that?

Why are you asking me? It's a hypothetical. The friction will occur across the whole spectrum of perspectives, e.g. how far do you assimilate into the mainstream culture vs how much you try to preserve.

 

[Chief]

Why are you asking me? It's a hypothetical. The friction will occur across the whole spectrum of perspectives, e.g. how far do you assimilate into the mainstream culture vs how much you try to preserve.

Or maybe how much society changes.