Opinion Sydney Swans Academy and Rebuild

[Lemma]

No?

So then what exactly is your reason for the academies existing at all?
What exactly is the benefit to the rest of the competition if Sydney get the best players from the academy every year?

 

[SM]

So then what exactly is your reason for the academies existing at all?
What exactly is the benefit to the rest of the competition if Sydney get the best players from the academy every year?

The development of talent in NSW..? I've already said adding more players to the draft pool then means other clubs are able to select players from their states, rather than having the Swans drafting them away from Vic/WA/etc. McDonald is almost the exception that makes the rule as we'll rarely have a pick that high and so will usually have to use all our currency on any good Academy talent coming through.

 

[sataris]

Brain Damaged.

 

[Sphynx]

For the record there are currently 62 players on a current AFL list who have moved back to their original state.58 0f these are divided up between Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia and 4 have returned to NSW and Queensland.Giants have Brander and Davis who is originally from Canberra.For Brisbane I included Cameron as I remember him stating he had family ties to Queensland.Weller is the only Go home player for the Suns.

Swans are the only club that dont have any go home players.While obviously part of the reason for academies is to grow the game the other side is to even up this equation.I know it's stating the obvious but non traditional footy states can't have a bad year like the crows or Eagles and actively target players originally recruited from there states.Also Giants and Suns are a long way off being on equal footing with regards to recruiting father sons in the draft

Conversely.

Sydney, particularly, has one of the best strike rates of recruiting players who move, but don't return home.

Your argument is flawed, whilst they don't have the same volume for go-home factor players, that is one of their biggest strengths and their best pulling power.

They can offer football in Australia's largest city, outside of the media bubbles of Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth.

But that doesn't suit the narrative does it?

 

[dosser]

Conversely.

Sydney, particularly, has one of the best strike rates of recruiting players who move, but don't return home.

Your argument is flawed, whilst they don't have the same volume for go-home factor players, that is one of their biggest strengths and their best pulling power.

They can offer football in Australia's largest city, outside of the media bubbles of Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth.

But that doesn't suit the narrative does it?

Correct. Player retention is something that the Swans have had to work very, very hard on because they know that players will not be coming back the other way. There are so many layers of player support and team cultural attractions that have had to be deliberately initiated because of the pull 'home' for various young players who are treated as kings back in their own neighbourhood but as nobodies in Sydney.

ALL clubs have to deal with this when their interstate recruits get 'homesick' but the northern states usually have to cope with it more because they have a higher proportion of interstate players.

 

[Number37]

Conversely.

Sydney, particularly, has one of the best strike rates of recruiting players who move, but don't return home.

Your argument is flawed, whilst they don't have the same volume for go-home factor players, that is one of their biggest strengths and their best pulling power.

They can offer football in Australia's largest city, outside of the media bubbles of Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth.

But that doesn't suit the narrative does it?

2022 Draft Combine invitees by state:

Victoria (33)
South Australia (13)
Western Australia (12)
NSW (3)
NT (2)
Qld (2)
Tas (2)


Go home factor is attached to 3 kids from NSW, 2 from QLD, 33 from Vic, 13 from SA, 12 from WA.
That's 58 out of 67 for Vic/WA/SA and 5/67 for NSW/QLD.

 

[Syd]

2022 Draft Combine invitees by state:

Victoria (33)
South Australia (13)
Western Australia (12)
NSW (3)
NT (2)
Qld (2)
Tas (2)


Go home factor is attached to 3 kids from NSW, 2 from QLD, 33 from Vic, 13 from SA, 12 from WA.
That's 58 out of 67 for Vic/WA/SA and 5/67 for NSW/QLD.

1 from Bendigo Pioneers, 2 from GWS Academy None from Sydney Swans Academy

NAME	DOB	STATE	STATE LEAGUE CLUB	COMMUNITY CLUB
Jason Gillbee	15/05/2004​	NSW/ACT	Bendigo Pioneers	Balranald
Nick Madden	17/05/2004​	NSW/ACT	GWS Giants Academy	Osborne
Harry Rowston	12/08/2004​	NSW/ACT	GWS Giants Academy	Griffith Swans

2 from Brisbane Lions Academy, None from GC Suns Academy

Shadeau Brain	13/02/2004​	QLD	Brisbane Lions Academy	Noosa
Jaspa Fletcher	24/02/2004​	QLD	Brisbane Lions Academy	Sherwood

So 1 of the 5 in Victoria, not NSW to start with.

 

[MF]

Conversely.

Sydney, particularly, has one of the best strike rates of recruiting players who move, but don't return home.

Your argument is flawed, whilst they don't have the same volume for go-home factor players, that is one of their biggest strengths and their best pulling power.

They can offer football in Australia's largest city, outside of the media bubbles of Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth.

But that doesn't suit the narrative does it?

You're correct in that we've been able to do this during periods of success.

This is the conundrum with the northern clubs though... When they're up the top of the ladder for a sustained period they don't see as many players wanting to go home and conversely it's not as difficult to attract talent from other clubs.

However the second that sustained success ends the opposite becomes true. We've seen all of Sydney, Brisbane, Gold coast and GWS hemorrhage players to Victoria and get stuck in a sustained cycle of drafting, developing and losing players year on year. They all lose players at a far greater rate than struggling teams from traditional football states do.

There has to be a mechanism in place to prevent this but it's difficult to find one that doesn't also become an unfair advantage when these teams are doing well for a sustained period.

I think the academies definitely address this issue but they need to really tweak the rules. For instance it shouldnt be so easy to trade an early draft pick for a bunch of later junk picks to use on academy selections.

The AFL ideally should move to an entirely points based system or at the very least tweak the value of each draft pick.

 

[Sphynx]

2022 Draft Combine invitees by state:

Victoria (33)
South Australia (13)
Western Australia (12)
NSW (3)
NT (2)
Qld (2)
Tas (2)


Go home factor is attached to 3 kids from NSW, 2 from QLD, 33 from Vic, 13 from SA, 12 from WA.
That's 58 out of 67 for Vic/WA/SA and 5/67 for NSW/QLD.

So the question has to be asked.

Why are the Swans and GWS entrusted with development in NSW then with the above numbers?

I've read over and over again that the AFL didn't give a shit about NSW football until the Swans were given the task, but the proof is in the pudding.

Numbers have regressed in NSW compared to when the AFL used to control the development system.

Are Sydney really concentrating on developing the NSW talent pool, or just the best 3-4 prospects within it?

 

[SM]

So the question has to be asked.

Why are the Swans and GWS entrusted with development in NSW then with the above numbers?

I've read over and over again that the AFL didn't give a s**t about NSW football until the Swans were given the task, but the proof is in the pudding.

Numbers have regressed in NSW compared to when the AFL used to control the development system.

Are Sydney really concentrating on developing the NSW talent pool, or just the best 3-4 prospects within it?

You are aware the combine isn't the actual draft, yes?

 

[Sphynx]

You are aware the combine isn't the actual draft, yes?

Yes, let me know how many were drafted last year?

 

[Number37]

So the question has to be asked.

Why are the Swans and GWS entrusted with development in NSW then with the above numbers?

I've read over and over again that the AFL didn't give a s**t about NSW football until the Swans were given the task, but the proof is in the pudding.

Numbers have regressed in NSW compared to when the AFL used to control the development system.

Are Sydney really concentrating on developing the NSW talent pool, or just the best 3-4 prospects within it?

The answer is simple.
The academies have been around for about 10 years.
Victorian/WA/SA have been around since 1788.

Inadvertently you have supported the argument for academy concessions.
It doesn't take 5 minutes to establish a talent pathway.
Kids from Vic/WA/SA aren't being targeted by rival codes as much as NSW/Qld kids.
All NRL clubs are paying players in their under age rep teams.
35 years ago they were paying 12 year old kids $500 per game.
It is much more than that today.
There is a tonne of kids from NZ that are lured to the NRL with $$$$ ...from the time they are in high school. Scholarships to schools worth tens of thousands, free accomodation, you name it.
No different to many Vic/SA/WA country kids that get scholarships to metro schools for AFL.
That is what the AFL is competing with. That is what the AFL clubs in the northern states are competing with.
There is no Xavier college in Sydney/Brisbane handing out AFL scholarships to kids. There is no Geelong Grammar. There is no PAC. There is no <insert WA schools> .

 

[Ticky009]

Further to the above the NRL teams are not only paying players <18 years of age and paying them very well, they are also paying for all medical, transport & kit.

 

[Maddo11]

Conversely.

Sydney, particularly, has one of the best strike rates of recruiting players who move, but don't return home.

Yeah no shit Sherlock, we can't get NSW players back from the go home factor because without the academies no campaigner in NSW would get drafted

Talk about the cart before the horse

 

[Lemma]

Yeah no s**t Sherlock, we can't get NSW players back from the go home factor because without the academies no campaigner in NSW would get drafted

Talk about the cart before the horse

Yes before the academies not one player was drafted from NSW...except for duds like....James Hird.....Jarrad McVeigh.....Shane Crawford...Lenny Hayes...
Definitely need an academy lol

 

[Lemma]

The development of talent in NSW..? I've already said adding more players to the draft pool then means other clubs are able to select players from their states, rather than having the Swans drafting them away from Vic/WA/etc. McDonald is almost the exception that makes the rule as we'll rarely have a pick that high and so will usually have to use all our currency on any good Academy talent coming through.

If it's solely to develop talent in NSW for the good of the code and the entire competition, why do 2 clubs have exclusive access (no other clubs can match bids) to the best talents in an entire state?

 

[WOFTAMWarrior]

Yes before the academies not one player was drafted from NSW...except for duds like....James Hird.....Jarrad McVeigh.....Shane Crawford...Lenny Hayes...
Definitely need an academy lol

Where did Crawford go to school?? Assumption College. One of the biggest nurseries for Australian Rules Footballers. Not much that NSW did in his development except him living on the northern side of the NSW and Victorian border.

Academies also take time to develop. It isn’t an instant switch where kids are suddenly AFL standard footballers. They’re not born out of the womb with a sherrin like kids in traditional footballing States.

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Yes before the academies not one player was drafted from NSW...except for duds like....James Hird.....Jarrad McVeigh.....Shane Crawford...Lenny Hayes...
Definitely need an academy lol

So to argue an academy that was established in 2010, the only examples you can come up with are players drafted in the 90’s (McVeigh 2002).

Doesn’t that show you the massive discrepancy? Sure you can cherry pick 10 or so top echelon players from NSW in the last 20-30 years but for each one there are hundreds of players from traditional footy states that are just as good.

I believe the benefits of the academy will be whittled down eventually but for that to happen the AFL needs to step in and take over and they need to give it equal or more attention and funding than the Swans do.

When that happens I am sure we will no longer get our pick of the bunch, but even while we are we’re still a long way behind in terms of player retention and even further back in terms of locally produced talent. Ask yourself who was the last top tier NSW born player to ask for a trade back home? Then compare that number to the amount of talent forcing their way back to traditional footy states on a yearly basis. Even our biggest fish (Buddy) was only lured to us due to an obscene contract because that’s what it takes. We can’t offer the incentives that big Melbourne teams can.

If you assume that Victoria, SA and WA will always take up at least 70-75% of the draft every year, then that means for the NSW and QLD teams to even have a reasonable share of the pie they need to have about 30% of the talent available on a consistent basis. Year after year. Long enough to establish a regular influx of local players without the need of "advantages" to get them to our clubs.

That is a long way off.


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[Scotland]

I believe the benefits of the academy will be whittled down eventually but for that to happen the AFL needs to step in and take over and they need to give it equal or more attention and funding than the Swans do.

I've heard many times from Sydney fans that the AFL don't want to do this and aren't capable of running academies anyway. I've also heard that part of the attraction is the club association, i.e. NSW juniors don't want to go to 'AFL academy' and be drafted to Victoria or WA or wherever. They want to rise through the ranks and play 'first grade' for Sydney or GWS as they would in rugby league. Or go from Shute Shield to the Waratahs as they would in union. Same goes for soccer where there are no restrictions on player movement.

What makes you think the the AFL will whittle down the benefits? They had every chance to do so when they introduced the Ugle-Hagan rule. Are NGAs not run and funded by clubs? All that would've done is put the next Campbell into an open draft while the next Gulden would be as per the rules now.

The amount of money spent on Northern academies is chicken feed in terms of overall AFL revenue and overall expenditure into NSW/Qld. I think the AFL are pretty happy with the current arrangement.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

So to argue an academy that was established in 2010, the only examples you can come up with are players drafted in the 90’s (McVeigh 2002).

Doesn’t that show you the massive discrepancy? Sure you can cherry pick 10 or so top echelon players from NSW in the last 20-30 years but for each one there are hundreds of players from traditional footy states that are just as good.

I believe the benefits of the academy will be whittled down eventually but for that to happen the AFL needs to step in and take over and they need to give it equal or more attention and funding than the Swans do.

When that happens I am sure we will no longer get our pick of the bunch, but even while we are we’re still a long way behind in terms of player retention and even further back in terms of locally produced talent. Ask yourself who was the last top tier NSW born player to ask for a trade back home? Then compare that number to the amount of talent forcing their way back to traditional footy states on a yearly basis. Even our biggest fish (Buddy) was only lured to us due to an obscene contact because that’s what it takes. We can’t offer the incentives that big Melbourne teams can.

If you assume that Victoria, SA and WA will always take up at least 70-75% of the draft every year, then that means for the NSW and QLD teams to even have a reasonable share of the pie they need to have about 30% of the talent available on a consistent basis. Year after year. Long enough to establish a regular influx of local players without the need of "advantages" to get them to our clubs.

That is a long way off.


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This is a very sensible post.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Another top 4 finish propped up by yearly priority picks. The AFL can't afford the Swans out of the finals for more than a year at a time as they will bleed money and support so they'll continue giving them a leg up indefinitely.

 

[SM]

If it's solely to develop talent in NSW for the good of the code and the entire competition, why do 2 clubs have exclusive access (no other clubs can match bids) to the best talents in an entire state?

That's not what exclusive means. I've already explained what exclusive means to one person do I need to explain it again?

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Another top 4 finish propped up by yearly priority picks. The AFL can't afford the Swans out of the finals for more than a year at a time as they will bleed money and support so they'll continue giving them a leg up indefinitely.

Do Melbourne have any distinct advantages over NSW and QLD based teams? Now, I’ll help you by letting you know that long held advantages are still considered advantages today.

Think hard before you reply. Much harder than you did before your last effort.

I’m excited about your findings.


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[Achy Blakey Heart]

Another top 4 finish propped up by yearly priority picks. The AFL can't afford the Swans out of the finals for more than a year at a time as they will bleed money and support so they'll continue giving them a leg up indefinitely.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

So to argue an academy that was established in 2010, the only examples you can come up with are players drafted in the 90’s (McVeigh 2002).

Doesn’t that show you the massive discrepancy? Sure you can cherry pick 10 or so top echelon players from NSW in the last 20-30 years but for each one there are hundreds of players from traditional footy states that are just as good.

I believe the benefits of the academy will be whittled down eventually but for that to happen the AFL needs to step in and take over and they need to give it equal or more attention and funding than the Swans do.

When that happens I am sure we will no longer get our pick of the bunch, but even while we are we’re still a long way behind in terms of player retention and even further back in terms of locally produced talent. Ask yourself who was the last top tier NSW born player to ask for a trade back home? Then compare that number to the amount of talent forcing their way back to traditional footy states on a yearly basis. Even our biggest fish (Buddy) was only lured to us due to an obscene contract because that’s what it takes. We can’t offer the incentives that big Melbourne teams can.

If you assume that Victoria, SA and WA will always take up at least 70-75% of the draft every year, then that means for the NSW and QLD teams to even have a reasonable share of the pie they need to have about 30% of the talent available on a consistent basis. Year after year. Long enough to establish a regular influx of local players without the need of "advantages" to get them to our clubs.

That is a long way off.


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Great post.