Oppo Camp Taylor Adams (Traded to Swans 2023)

[JLC]

This isn't true. His key stat, clearances has been inferior to Adams, comparing both as mids. His very first game was 10, he has also had two 8s quite early in the year. Adams had 9 against Power. The last full game where Mitchell had more than 5 clearances was his 8 against Carlton in round 10.

In my view Adams was much more impactful with those clearances, running with the ball and kicking (eg. 20 kicks, 5 handballs against Power) rather than handballing and not just quick hack kicks. His 9 coaches votes is more than Tom has recieved in a game.

Adams recent best form is clearly better than Mitchell's for mine. I'd also take Adams best over the year, but there could be more of a debate there.

To me the difference is that Mitchell understands his limitations and his game.

That kick to handball ratio for Adams is a bad one and will end in disaster more times than it ends in success, especially against high pressure teams.

If we want to become a better team then Adams needs to go and we upgrade that position. The upgrade may happen in the off season but it has to happen.



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[jmac70]

To me the difference is that Mitchell understands his limitations and his game.

That kick to handball ratio for Adams is a bad one and will end in disaster more times than it ends in success, especially against high pressure teams.

If we want to become a better team then Adams needs to go and we upgrade that position. The upgrade may happen in the off season but it has to happen.



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Adams will be collecting his premiership medallion this year.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

This isn't true. His key stat, clearances has been inferior to Adams, comparing both as mids. His very first game was 10, he has also had two 8s quite early in the year. Adams had 9 against Power. The last full game where Mitchell had more than 5 clearances was his 8 against Carlton in round 10.

In my view Adams was much more impactful with those clearances, running with the ball and kicking (eg. 20 kicks, 5 handballs against Power) rather than handballing and not just quick hack kicks. His 9 coaches votes is more than Tom has recieved in a game.

Adams recent best form is clearly better than Mitchell's for mine. I'd also take Adams best over the year, but there could be more of a debate there.

Adams having a kick-handball ratio of 4 to 1 is not a good thing. He played well against Port but long term he is literally the last player on the list we'd want to see with that ratio.

Adams has had to adapt to playing a difficult small forward role this season. He's not ideal for that position but he's done ok. As a rule of thumb though...The less Adams kicks the ball the better.

Adams is safe. Mitchell's recent form is the issue. As you pointed out he is not winning as many clearances as we need him to. It's your only job Tom!

 

[Vicky Park]

Interesting debate about Tay.

There are some players whose place is clearly under threat as we head to September. Because of form, structure, or position pressure. It’s just happened with WHE and Cox. Lippa is another in this conversation.

But there are others who are heart and soul players, who give their all week after week, and take a pounding for the team. Players we have relied on in building this team, and are beloved by their teammates. Guys like Adams and Checkers.

Their form would have to be at rock bottom before they get dropped. It would be like ripping the heart out of the team.

Not all decisions about who is in, or out, are made on recent form.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Having finally resolved the two ruck debate, we now need to address the two inside mids debate! Reckon they are both having good seasons and working well as a combo. Next year might be a different question.

 

[sr36]

Having finally resolved the two ruck debate, we now need to address the two inside mids debate! Reckon they are both having good seasons and working well as a combo. Next year might be a different question.

I view it as a bit of a different mid debate. Adams is as safe as a house - he's justified his position as a half forward even if you choose to not use him in the midfield. But I'd use him in the midfield. To me, Pendles and Mitchell aren't a good combination to have inside together as it makes us slow around stoppage. And neither of them are particularly suited to other positions. And it's still Pendles over Mitchell.

So the question is how do you make it work so that these fantastic footballers work well together in the same team - is there space for too slow mids - are we better off playing a forward ahead of Mitchell rather than playing them together or trying to fit Pendles or Mitchell into a non-mid role for big chunks of the game.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I view it as a bit of a different mid debate. Adams is as safe as a house - he's justified his position as a half forward even if you choose to not use him in the midfield. But I'd use him in the midfield. To me, Pendles and Mitchell aren't a good combination to have inside together as it makes us slow around stoppage. And neither of them are particularly suited to other positions. And it's still Pendles over Mitchell.

So the question is how do you make it work so that these fantastic footballers work well together in the same team - is there space for too slow mids - are we better off playing a forward ahead of Mitchell rather than playing them together or trying to fit Pendles or Mitchell into a non-mid role for big chunks of the game.

Yep definitely one too many slow players in the team. It’s largely been a non issue through the year though, and let’s be frank there’s no obvious replacements at this stage of the season so we can fix it if we wanted to make a tough call and drop one of them. Clever use of the sub bench and these guys bringing their A games are what’s required. That probably means Mitchell mostly in the clearances and Adams forward, and Pendles where he’s needed.

Edit… when I called mitchell and adams a combo, agree that they shouldn’t share too many centre bounces together. I see them more as old school “ ruckrovers changing on the half forward flank”

 

[sr36]

Yep definitely one too many slow players in the team. It’s largely been a non issue through the year though, and let’s be frank there’s no obvious replacements at this stage of the season so we can fix it if we wanted to make a tough call and drop one of them. Clever use of the sub bench and these guys bringing their A games are what’s required. That probably means Mitchell mostly in the clearances and Adams forward, and Pendles where he’s needed.

I think Pendles should be mid only. I'll get empty stubbies thrown at me from those who are breathing a sigh of relief with this week's non-selection, but I'd play everyone's favourite - WHE and leave out Mitchell.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I'll get empty stubbies thrown at me from those who are breathing a sigh of relief with this week's non-selection, but I'd play everyone's favourite - WHE.

Yeah we need to be careful not to make our side even slower, although Hill is back this week. I wouldn’t be writin* WHE off yet but not the time of year to be dropped…

Wh9 knows, WHE for Mitchell might be on the cards in coming weeks.

 

[Pies_Iceman]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth


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Just ignore him.

He seems to enjoy finding a way to have a little crack at your posts. Even previously on other forums.

 

[Maggie5]

Two players come to mind re clangers - Maynard (60) and Adams (70) this season but doubt either will be dropped.

Have to accept the good and the bad until someone can push them out. Unlikely at this stage.

 

[Mollythedolly]

Having finally resolved the two ruck debate, we now need to address the two inside mids debate! Reckon they are both having good seasons and working well as a combo. Next year might be a different question.

Have we resolved the 2 ruck debate? I think there’s a lot more to play out with that over the last few H&A rounds.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Have we resolved the 2 ruck debate? I think there’s a lot more to play out with that over the last few H&A rounds.

Resolved maybe not the right word but this is the first firm step in that direction

 

[sr36]

Has it really? Mitchell at his best has been able to provide multiple 30+ disposal 10+ tackle games. More tackles, clearances and disposals, less scores and less clangers.

I think it would be interesting if there was a genuine measure of disposal effectiveness. To me, Mitchell is a bit of a nil all draw specialist, whereas Adams has a lot more losses but also a lot more wins.

 

[Mollythedolly]

Resolved maybe not the right word but this is the first firm step in that direction

I’m looking forward to see how it works. If Cameron could play more TOG it would make me less worried about it. Dry weather and less stoppages would be nice.

 

[3rdMan]

I think it would be interesting if there was a genuine measure of disposal effectiveness. To me, Mitchell is a bit of a nil all draw specialist, whereas Adams has a lot more losses but also a lot more wins.

This. Mitchell is a "safer" kick because he mostly goes high to a contest and rarely bursts from packs.

Adams can do damage with his kicks. He runs with the ball, even through packs, and can deliver quality passes. Given that DE is lower for contested ball players anyway, Adams' kicking is not overly poor, Dangerfield is the comparison I'd make.

You take an inside mid who is more often able to kick than handball as they don't require a sidekick to get the ball inside 50. A player who can drive the ball forward from clearances is usually more valuable than one who mostly handballs.

The 20 kicks 5 handball game isn't the norm for Adams either. This was in the wet against Port. Against Freo, probably his best game, he had 13 kicks, 10 handballs. Also 7 clearances, 2 goals. I highlighted because Adams did what you want in the wet, gaining territory. Whereas Mitchell had 5 kicks and 10 handballs.

Anyway, I don't want to bash on Mitchell too much. At their best this year there isn't a huge amount between them. I just don't think Mitchell has been at his best for a while and his lack of clearances at times (0 in first half against Blues) is possibly a problem. Will say again, I never hold these opinions strongly, and I'm not hoping for Michell to be dropped, I'm hoping for us to come up with our best mix of 23 whatever that is.

 

[3rdMan]

I’m looking forward to see how it works. If Cameron could play more TOG it would make me less worried about it. Dry weather and less stoppages would be nice.

I think Cameron's TOG is pretty good for a ruck. Against Blues he played 84%. Same as English, 5% less than Gawn. He would of course have less in games where Cox is going well, but with no Cox I'd expect he'd play 80+ percent which he's don't quite a few times already.

 

[JLC]

Adams will be collecting his premiership medallion this year.

I am not even convinced we will win a final, let alone make a grand final, let alone win a Premiership.

Would like to start with a four quarter performance.

 

[gouki88]

I am not even convinced we will win a final, let alone make a grand final, let alone win a Premiership.

Would like to start with a four quarter performance.

We were a worse team last season, yet won a final and lost two by a kick

 

[JLC]

We were a worse team last season, yet won a final and lost two by a kick

At the moment, Melbourne would roll us in the first final. Melbourne have improved significantly since Kings birthday.

In the second match up if we played GWS, Carlton or Geelong then that is no certainty either.

I want to see a vast improvement prior to finals.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

At the moment, Melbourne would roll us in the first final. Melbourne have improved significantly since Kings birthday.

In the second match up if we played GWS, Carlton or Geelong then that is no certainty either.

I want to see a vast improvement prior to finals.

If Melbourne would roll us, the Bulldogs would absolute destroy us. They were up on Richmond 44-7 in the first quarter last night.

Seriously though, they’ve lost Fritsch and we’ve regained De Goey, Sidebottom Howe and McStay. Reckon we’d go ok.

 

[JLC]

If Melbourne would roll us, the Bulldogs would absolute destroy us. They were up on Richmond 44-7 in the first quarter last night.

Seriously though, they’ve lost Fritsch and we’ve regained De Goey, Sidebottom Howe and McStay. Reckon we’d go ok.

It is not as simple as the ins and outs. It is more the brand of football they are playing. I am not seeing our brand often enough in games. Unless our brand is to fall behind most weeks and expect to come back in the last quarter? I want to see us stamping our authority on more games.

Last week provided me with no confidence that Gawn, Viney and Brayshaw would not destroy our midfield again.

Still to see any evidence that we can curtail Steven May. Weitering had a field day last week.

I also don't see Howe as a significant inclusion.

But I hope i am wrong. I just want some evidence of us playing ruthless football - fast decisive ball movment, creating turnovers, repeat stoppages in forward line, winning centre clearance etc.

 

[gouki88]

At the moment, Melbourne would roll us in the first final. Melbourne have improved significantly since Kings birthday.

In the second match up if we played GWS, Carlton or Geelong then that is no certainty either.

I want to see a vast improvement prior to finals.

I think it's a bit silly to suggest Melbourne would roll us.

 

[JLC]

I think it's a bit silly to suggest Melbourne would roll us.

Why?

 

[sr36]

At the moment, Melbourne would roll us in the first final. Melbourne have improved significantly since Kings birthday.

In the second match up if we played GWS, Carlton or Geelong then that is no certainty either.

I want to see a vast improvement prior to finals.

It's an even comp and like all sports luck plays a big role on the day. If you're looking for certainty that we'll win finals in Round 21, you'll be looking forever.