Toast The Big 4 all getting over a million people through the gate in season 2023

[Hawkk]

Richmond achieved that first with 119k attending BEFORE the 1970 granny.

To be fair, the Hawks and Saints drew 118k in 1971 (3rd largest crowd of all time - and in the wet too)

1968-1973 was the golden era for finals crowds, so whether a game drew 117k or 121k was largely due to weather.

In fact, the only game to drop below 117k was 1972 (Rich v Carl, 112k), which was arguably the best spectacle of the lot.

Those monster crowds were due to the massive amounts of standing room in the Ponsford Stand (errected in 1967).

By the mid ‘70s, capacity dipped below 115k, as seating was added to the bottom two decks. Which is why 1979 and 1981 (and 1982) was under 115k.

You can actually track finals crowds based on the staggered redevelopments to the MCG.

 

[What else we can do]

Richmond achieved that first with 119k attending BEFORE the 1970 granny.

Against who?

 

[Hawkk]

Against who?

Do you think a Carlton v St Kilda 1969 Grand Final would draw less than Hawthorn v St Kilda (1971) or Carlton v Essendon (1968)

 

[What else we can do]

To be fair, the Hawks and Saints drew 118k in 1971 (3rd largest crowd of all time - and in the wet too)

1968-1973 was the golden era for finals crowds, so whether a game drew 117k or 121k was largely due to weather.

In fact, the only game to drop below 117k was 1972 (Rich v Carl, 112k), which was arguably the best spectacle of the lot.

Those monster crowds were due to the massive amounts of standing room in the Ponsford Stand (errected in 1967).

By the mid ‘70s, capacity dipped below 115k, as seating was added to the bottom two decks. Which is why 1979 and 1981 (and 1982) was under 115k.

You can actually track finals crowds based on the staggered redevelopments to the MCG.

You can't take away the fact Carlton appear in 4 of the 5 biggest crowds of all time. The biggest prelim final crowd and the biggest final's crowd other than a GF.

1971 is the third biggest not the biggest and I think Peter Hudson breaking Bob Pratt's record played a factor in it.

 

[What else we can do]

Do you think a Carlton v St Kilda 1969 Grand Final would draw less than Hawthorn v St Kilda (1971) or Carlton v Essendon (1968)

Honestly more not but not quite 1970 levels St Kilda vs Carlton had 108,000 in the 1970 prelim still the record.

 

[Hawkk]

You can't take away the fact Carlton appear in 4 of the 5 biggest crowds of all time. The biggest prelim final crowd and the biggest final's crowd other than a GF.

1971 is the third biggest not the biggest and I think Peter Hudson breaking Bob Pratt's record played a factor in it.

I highly doubt it did, except for Carl v Rich there was less than 4k in every GF between 1968-1973. When it came to GF’s the only variable was weather.

Finals attendances has never been an indicator of drawing power.

In fact the Grand Final attendance record basically was reset every year in the late 1960s, after the Haw v Foots GF drew 108k in 1961 (10k more than Carl v Ess in 1962, and 11k more than Coll v Melb in 1960).

That number was only bettered in 1967 (Rich v Geel) with the opening of the Ponsford (108k), before it jumped 10k in 1968-69.

There is a reason that pretty much all GF marathons include 1966, 1970, 1971, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1984 and 1989

 

[Hawkk]

Honestly more not but not quite 1970 levels St Kilda vs Carlton had 108,000 in the 1970 prelim still the record.

St Kilda v South Melbourne set a first weeks finals record of 104,500 also in 1970. Attendance records were being bested every week - that’s why the Saints have the highest finals crowd average, because such a high proportion of their finals were played between 1965 and 1972.

If you go back to the mid 1960s, for example, Geelong drew considerably larger finals crowds than Carlton, Essendon and Richmond. Does that make them a bigger club? Probably not, just a combination of weather, pairings and random chance

 

[What else we can do]

I highly doubt it did, except for Carl v Rich there was less than 4k in every GF between 1968-1973. When it came to GF’s the only variable was weather.

In fact the Grand Final attendance record basically was reset every year in the 1960s, starting with the Haw v Foots GF which drew 108k in 1961 (which was 10k more than Carl v Ess in 1961, and 11k more than Coll v Melb in 1960).

That number was only bettered in 1967 (Rich v Geel) with the opening of the Ponsford (108k), before it jumped 10k in 1968-69.

There is a reason that pretty much all GF marathons include 1966, 1970, 1971, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1984 and 1989

But the facts state that Carlton are in 4 of the 5 biggest crowds of all time no matter how you look at it.
108,000 record prelim crowd v St Kilda
112,000 record finals crowd v Coll non GF

 

[Hawkk]

But the facts state that Carlton are in 4 of the 5 biggest crowds of all time no matter how you look at it.
108,000 record prelim crowd v St Kilda
112,000 record finals crowd v Coll non GF

But that fact is largely a quirk of Carlton being hugely successful at the exact time that the Ponsford Stand had happened.

Same reason why Hawthorn - who were in every right a much smaller club than compared to now - drew enormous finals crowds in 1961, 1963 and 1971.

There are many different metrics that show Carlton’s drawing power (the best is their average attendances pre world war 2 fwiw), but finals crowds are largely irrelevant.

Take 1962-63:
Using your logic, Geelong was as big or bigger than the Dons and Blues in the mid 1960s. However this is very deceiving - the Cats were a top team of the era and every VFL club were given Series finals tickets…

Evidently, it’s the same with 1951-52:



Other examples include Melbourne 1987-90

 

[Occidental]

I highly doubt it did, except for Carl v Rich there was less than 4k in every GF between 1968-1973. When it came to GF’s the only variable was weather.

Finals attendances has never been an indicator of drawing power.

In fact the Grand Final attendance record basically was reset every year in the late 1960s, after the Haw v Foots GF drew 108k in 1961 (10k more than Carl v Ess in 1962, and 11k more than Coll v Melb in 1960).

That number was only bettered in 1967 (Rich v Geel) with the opening of the Ponsford (108k), before it jumped 10k in 1968-69.

There is a reason that pretty much all GF marathons include 1966, 1970, 1971, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1984 and 1989

Way back in 1956 Collingwood v Melbourne drew 115,902 to the GF with the Ponsford Stand not being built for another 11 years.

 

[Hawkk]

Way back in 1956 Collingwood v Melbourne drew 115,902 to the GF with the Ponsford Stand not being built for another 11 years.

Yep, you’re right! I stand corrected.

But that also coincided with the Olympic Stand - I presume the configuration for the Olympics allowed for a lot more seating (ala Sydney in 2000?).

…because the crowds dropped back to 98k to 103k leading up to 1961.

 

[What else we can do]

St Kilda v South Melbourne set a first weeks finals record of 104,500 also in 1970. Attendance records were being bested every week - that’s why the Saints have the highest finals crowd average, because such a high proportion of their finals were played between 1965 and 1972.

If you go back to the mid 1960s, for example, Geelong drew considerably larger finals crowds than Carlton, Essendon and Richmond. Does that make them a bigger club? Probably not, just a combination of weather, pairings and random chance

St Kilda's record crowd of all time is against Carlton.
Essendon's record GF crowd and finals crowd is against Carlton ditto Collingwood there is a pattern here

Let's take the installation of seating from 1974 to 1983 as an example Carlton v Collingwood had the biggest GF crowd in 1979. The biggest crowd other than the GF was 95,000 Carlton v Collingwood in the 1980 semi final.

Jack Hamilton(VFL pres) stated in 1979 "due to the limitation of tickets for the Grand Final the two biggest football clubs in Australia would sell 200,000 tickets" referencing the 1970 lockout.

With installation of corp boxes in 1984 it dropped the capacity even more with the record being held by Hawthorn v again Carlton in 1986. More recently the three times crowds above 96,000 occured for a non GF involve Carlton and Collingwood against Melbourne, Geelong and GWS.

 

[What else we can do]

But that fact is largely a quirk of Carlton being hugely successful at the exact time that the Ponsford Stand had happened.

Same reason why Hawthorn - who were in every right a much smaller club than compared to now - drew enormous finals crowds in 1961, 1963 and 1971.

There are many different metrics that show Carlton’s drawing power (the best is their average attendances pre world war 2 fwiw), but finals crowds are largely irrelevant.

Take 1962-63:View attachment 2022002View attachment 2022004
Using your logic, Geelong was as big or bigger than the Dons and Blues in the mid 1960s. However this is very deceiving - the Cats were a top team of the era and every VFL club were given Series finals tickets…

Evidently, it’s the same with 1951-52:

View attachment 2022011View attachment 2022012

Other examples include Melbourne 1987-90

As I said the facts state that Carlton are involved the biggest crowds I highlighted you can spin it any way you like but these are the facts. Carlton and Collingwood were biggest clubs in the old VFL.

Taking my Carlton hat off now you can argue the Bombers, Eagles and Tiges are bigger now but when I hear Brian Cook say Carlton and Collingwood are top two according to the metrics they get from the AFL who knows?? Anyway adios mouchachos

 

[Occidental]

Not tea

Yep, you’re right! I stand corrected.

But that also coincided with the Olympic Stand - I presume the configuration for the Olympics allowed for a lot more seating (ala Sydney in 2000?).

…because the crowds dropped back to 98k to 103k leading up to 1961.

Yes the Olympic Stand was finished in time for the 1956 GF and they let in 115,000. It was unsafe with crowds filling access aisles and people scrambling up onto the roofs of the stands!
The Olympics two months later showed the VFL how ticketing worked.
The 1956 massive crowd was the last where it was just turn up and pay at the door. People would sleep out and the ground would fill until the gates were locked.
From 1957 onward, pre sale of tickets became available. Clubs got allocations and others were sold via mail in.
Standing room would still have plenty of walk up sales on the day however if you got their early.
That reduced crowds somewhat as the 115,000 in 1956 was simply unsafe. Plus pre sales generated more income.
This the 1956 GF crowd. Picture shows the Reserves GF.

 

[PizzaPie]

But....

Possible reason why something happened does not change the known facts of what happened. No shit if some of the circumstances were different there might have been a different result, doesn't change anything though.

 

[Hawkk]

I mean that’s cool and all.

Why would you quote someone, only use the first word and not address the post

 

[What else we can do]

Who did Geelong play in the 50's and 60's? I can't see the font is too small I should of gone to Specsavers

 

[PizzaPie]

I mean that’s cool and all.

Why would you quote someone, only use the first word and not address the post

Because the substance of your entire post was limited to only that word

 

[Peacock]

There have only been two H&A games in history that have drawn over 90,000 on a non-public holiday. Just two. Ever.

Carl-Ess in 2000 which drew over 91,000 and Rich-Carl in 2018 when the Tigers were unfurling their premiership flag.

Attendances of 90,000 just don’t happen unless it’s a public holiday. High 80’s is pretty much the limit. The game in 2000 was, in my opinion, the biggest build up to a H&A game in history and stands alone as the most insane build up to a game the sport has ever seen with one team on a 19-game win streak versus another who had won 13 of their last 14. The game had 10-week build up as the Bombers and Blues kept winning.

Coll-Ess on the Kings Eve wouldn’t have drawn 90,000 in my humble opinion. I suspect it would be high 80,000s similar to the Collingwood-Carlton Friday night game earlier this year.

90,000 just doesn’t happen on a non-public holiday unless it’s under the most extraordinary of circumstances.

It was also under the old configuration of the MCG. Had it been how it is now it would have pulled about 94k which is pretty much Anzac capacity for a regular season Friday night game! It was hot off the '99 prelim too for extra spice.

Kings Eve is only marginally better than a regular season Friday night game, if at all.

 

[What else we can do]

Possible reason why something happened does not change the known facts of what happened. No shit if some of the circumstances were different there might have been a different result, doesn't change anything though.

No matter what era you look at whether it has to do with the weather, seating, standing room whatever you will find the biggest crowds of all time involve Carlton or Collingwood or both.

 

[PizzaPie]

No matter what era you look at whether it has to do with the weather, seating, standing room whatever you will find the biggest crowds of all time involve Carlton or Collingwood or both.

If you're going by how many people attended, sure, but that's just an opinion. When you factor in that Carlton and/or Collingwood have played in 100% of matches in which an incorrect umpiring decision favored either Carlton or Collingwood, it tells another story. Also, the only reason the crowds are so big in the first place is because lots of people that follow football barrack for one of them, and they play on the biggest stadium in the country in the same city as most of those supporters. If less people barracked for them, or half of them lived in Norway for example, or they played on stadium with 1/4 the capacity, I suspect the crowd sizes wouldn't actually be as big so the numbers can be a bit deceiving.

 

[What else we can do]

If you're going by how many people attended, sure, but that's just an opinion. When you factor in that Carlton and/or Collingwood have played in 100% of matches in which an incorrect umpiring decision favored either Carlton or Collingwood, it tells another story. Also, the only reason the crowds are so big in the first place is because lots of people that follow football barrack for one of them, and they play on the biggest stadium in the country in the same city as most of those supporters. If less people barracked for them, or half of them lived in Norway for example, or they played on stadium with 1/4 the capacity, I suspect the crowd sizes wouldn't actually be as big so the numbers can be a bit deceiving.

I understand that but you could say that about H/A games too, my point being when Carlton or Collingwood are involved it has been proven that it bumps the total attendance a little bit more.

 

[PizzaPie]

I understand that but you could say that about H/A games too, my point being when Carlton or Collingwood are involved it has been proven that it bumps the total attendance a little bit more.

It's worrying that you understand what I said. Read it again with your sarcasm detector turned up to 11

 

[Crippa13]

Pies vs bombers both top 6 and no rain and only getting 81,000? thats poor in my opinion