The future of Local Geelong Footy

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tim finnigan said:
Wasn't it already 18.5? I know it was in my last year of u18's in 2004 or did has it been scrapped again and now being restored?
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100%graded under 18 in 2012. Perhaps 18.5 stillto decide,sides will be limited with numbers as in if fielding only 1 side a max of ?only allowed on list same with 2 side teams. The theory is to spread numbers around a bit so that for instance sth barwon may have 2 sides and a list of 44 any excess would need to find a new home. Theory is good but how do kids 45/46/47/48 feel and would they go to belmont ? or do you lose them altogether ? One thing for certain is that graded 18 footy should of happened years ago when first mentioned this year under 18 footy thru 3 leagues is far too lopsided with bfl and gdfl being very ordinary with only 2/3 decent sides.
 
When will football geelong realise that it's not just junior footy that's the problem? Check the results and ladders and it'll show that in all 3 leagues there's clubs struggling in seniors, reserves and u18's.

It's very rare to see a club with a great u18 and a struggling senior team or vice versa. Its time for a revamp of all football in geelong not just the junior section.
 
tim finnigan said:
Thought I'd go back into this thread and re open the debate regarding promotion/relegation.

I believe all u18 footy in the region will be graded from next year and there is still clubs struggling big time in the different leagues.

Has people's thoughts changed now or should everything remain as is?

My opinion? Something's gotta change..
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Check the results and ladders and it'll show that in all 3 leagues there's clubs struggling in seniors, reserves and u18's.
 Very True. Seems the same few clubs are in the top and the same few who will not get there in a long time.

my guess is a change is already in the works given the new growth areas -armstrong creek in particular.
 

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The Hills FL in South Australia require clubs in their second division to apply for a place in the higher grade before the season starts. If one of these clubs win the A Grade footy flag, then they are offered a place in A Grade and a club championship (As/Bs/Senior Colts) is used to determine the team who gets relegated with the 'worst' side over the three grades being demoted. Usually only the strong clubs apply for promotion.

Wouldn't a system like this (e.g. Sen/Res/Netball A) - preferrably without the application process - be possible in determining movements between grades in Geelong? It would factor in club depth and also the top netball side and be an easy system to follow (with say a 5-4-3 point system per win) throughout the season and everyone would undertand the equation as the season progressed.

If that was impossible (and I don't know how), would an interim North/Central/South division structure work for a 3-5 year period and then take the top three from each grade and one other club for a Div 1, then next 10 best across the board for a Div 2, etc. or even leave it as geographic like the MPNFL.
 
Theres certainly issues in senior football in the three leagues but the 18s system at the moment is just ridiculous. The North Geelong under 18s have only lost one game in 3 years and have racked up 100 point win after 100 point win. They deserve a chance to play against better opposition and im sure it would help the club from a senior point of view also as a lot of the guys coming up from 18s have been no where near senior level and im sure the lack of competition over there junior years is a big part of it.
 
Does anyone know what powers the vcfl has. Can they force clubs to merge if it is in the regions best interests? Can they shut down a club that may not have much future and has low population base and relies on players travelling to keep running???
 
Thought this is worth revisiting. I have a Bellarine club family with 5 representatives across junior netball/football and senior football. Yes, we rack up the kms every weekend!

Over the years I've seen all the models and here's a few observations. At junior level the best players want to play in the best league to fastrack their development. This meant BFL and GDFL kids used to move to GFL teams. Now, with a graded system kids are more likely to stay with their clubs which is a good thing. It's also seen plenty of BFL and GDFL junior teams play in Div 1. Where this doesn't work is U/18s. It would be much better to have these guys playing at the same venue as the seniors and netballers. The elite kids are already in the falcons program.

The standard of netball across the 3 leagues (in seniors and juniors) is pretty much the same so it's definitely an advantage if they they all go with the senior footy team.

The gap in the quality of GFL and BFL has closed significantly over recent years. On this years form Queenscliff would have vied for finals in the GFL, and Ammos and Drysdale would not have been out of place. Based on this, I think a relegation system covering a senior/reserves/U/18 footy and all netball (based on senior footy teams performance) is the best solution. The grading system works well for U/14 & U/16 footy although the mechanics of it can be improved. Also, agree with grading and no finals for U/10 & U12 to ensure the focus is on participation and skill development rather than win at all costs.
 
Deep We11s 1 said:
Thought this is worth revisiting. I have a Bellarine club family with 5 representatives across junior netball/football and senior football. Yes, we rack up the kms every weekend!

Over the years I've seen all the models and here's a few observations. At junior level the best players want to play in the best league to fastrack their development. This meant BFL and GDFL kids used to move to GFL teams. Now, with a graded system kids are more likely to stay with their clubs which is a good thing. It's also seen plenty of BFL and GDFL junior teams play in Div 1. Where this doesn't work is U/18s. It would be much better to have these guys playing at the same venue as the seniors and netballers. The elite kids are already in the falcons program.

The standard of netball across the 3 leagues (in seniors and juniors) is pretty much the same so it's definitely an advantage if they they all go with the senior footy team.

The gap in the quality of GFL and BFL has closed significantly over recent years. On this years form Queenscliff would have vied for finals in the GFL, and Ammos and Drysdale would not have been out of place. Based on this, I think a relegation system covering a senior/reserves/U/18 footy and all netball (based on senior footy teams performance) is the best solution. The grading system works well for U/14 & U/16 footy although the mechanics of it can be improved. Also, agree with grading and no finals for U/10 & U12 to ensure the focus is on participation and skill development rather than win at all costs.
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I'm more a traditionalist when it comes to this topic. I'm a big fan of community vs community as the case is in the BFL and to a varying degree in the other comps. Id say there is still a gap between BFL and GFL and that's ok and gives individuals with drive to challenge themselves at a higher level. With Juniors the grading system works well and has been a success where teams can be competitive against other teams of similar talent. There are still edge cases where some teams are in the wrong division but hopefully that gets ironed out. I'd like to see it stay as is and see how things progress next year.

The other grey area is the GDFL and Football Geelong being under different corporate structures. Whilst this is in place I can't see teams from different leagues (GDFL vs GFL/BFL) swapping around. It was all under one banner then the relegation system would be one step closer (rightly or wrongly).
 
godons26 said:
I'm more a traditionalist when it comes to this topic. I'm a big fan of community vs community as the case is in the BFL and to a varying degree in the other comps. Id say there is still a gap between BFL and GFL and that's ok and gives individuals with drive to challenge themselves at a higher level. With Juniors the grading system works well and has been a success where teams can be competitive against other teams of similar talent. There are still edge cases where some teams are in the wrong division but hopefully that gets ironed out. I'd like to see it stay as is and see how things progress next year.

The other grey area is the GDFL and Football Geelong being under different corporate structures. Whilst this is in place I can't see teams from different leagues (GDFL vs GFL/BFL) swapping around. It was all under one banner then the relegation system would be one step closer (rightly or wrongly).
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I think you are right godons. The GFL clubs don't want to be relegated and the GDFL likes its own league. But what about the greater good. Times are changing as are the demographics of Geelong. Clubs like North Shore are struggling to compete as their area population changes and with so many teams in that area competition is high. North Shore are a classic case for promotion relegation. As it stands North Shore will struggle, they have a lack of juniors coming through and find it hard to compete with other teams in their area. So if they keep going as they are they will again be the whipping boys next year and years after that. If they were "relegated" they would not lose as much probably and the club may be a better place to be around in terms of winning footy games.

Grovedale are a good case in point to contrast North Shore. Grovedale is experiencing huge population growth and has plenty of juniors coming through. With this going for them they are better placed to improve as they have than say a North Shore. Portarlington is another case the same as North Shore. They just cant compete due to factors simular to North Shore.

But due to the pig headedness of the GFL clubs who couldn't handle being "relegated" this will never happen. One of the biggest leagues in the state the Eastern Football League has promotion relegation, and it works fine. Basically the premiers are promoted and the team on the bottom is relegated. Not difficult.

So this year North Shore would go down a division. Queenscliff would go up. Newcomb would go down and North Geelong up. So its not huge change. Now its pretty safe to say the arse wouldn't fall out of these clubs if that happened. North Shore would be competitive again, Queenscliff would test themselves. Already there is talk of Queenscliff players going to GFL to play at a higher level well under this system they could stay there and do that, so that's all good. North Geelong would be more than competitive at BFL level and Newcomb would have more chance to win by dropping down.

As I said there is not much bad to come from it. It would just take getting used to. If clubs go up and they are not up to it that's fine they will soon drop down again and become competitive.

But unfortunately this just wont happen. Shame.
 
Agree 100% having been involved with both GFL and EDFL, I am all for relegation and promotion. In the EDFL they created a 3rd division this year, a few clubs were angry that they got relegated to 3rd division as they thought they would lose players to clubs from the higher division, the opposite actually happened, some older players came back to the clubs as they knew they wouldn’t be getting belted every week, crowds were up and the club was making more money through bar sales and sponsorship and the winner of Div 3, Sydenham celebrated their grand final win harder than the Div 1 premier as prior to the new division, they were a low level team getting thumped.



I would imagine the clubs that get relegated would experience the same. The whole netball thing is valid, but a quick glance at the netball ladders and I would say that most of the stronger netball clubs are also the stronger football clubs, with Ammos being the exception so I don’t think it would have such an impact that it outweighs all the positives that would come with a promotion/relegation across a 3 tiered league. With the massive growth the region is going to experience over the next decade and beyond clubs like Torquay who will no doubt end up attracting the better players from Armstrong Creek area, as well as sponsorship from all the businesses in the area they could end up being a force capable of winning the GF if given the opportunity, where a club like North Shore unless it gets put down a grade it could easily fade away and all its history and premierships won’t mean anything.
 
This topic is rearing it's head again. Front page of the addy this morning. Looks like it might have legs this time. It's just common sense for mine. It works well in major metro melbourne leagues it will work here as well.


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Yes I seen that, wouldn't imagine the Addy would run it front page unless there were substance to it and there is a real commitment to try.

From speaking to some people who may or may not know, the hold up from what I am told is the GDFL clubs who do not want to lose the revenue they get from Buckley's and have wanted to remain independent but the BFL & GFL are happy to get on board.
 

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muttonchops said:
This topic is rearing it's head again. Front page of the addy this morning. Looks like it might have legs this time. It's just common sense for mine. It works well in major metro melbourne leagues it will work here as well.


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Alan bliss talked at a past player function on the weekend.Its 100% going to happen.
 
localfootynut said:
Alan bliss talked at a past player function on the weekend.Its 100% going to happen.
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Good I hope so. Yep there will be some pain and a bit of time to get used to it. But think of clubs like Portarlington, Newcomb, North Shore, Blue West. Clubs like this will fold eventually but something like this will give them hop of actually winning games. If it doesn't happen it will be just more of the same. Clubs like Bell Post Hill, North Geelong, Ammos, Queenscliff will have a chance to better themselves and instead of losing players who want to play at a higher level they may retain them because they will be able to stay there and play at a higher level.

Imagine North Shore, yep a proud club but are they proud enough to drop down a division? Why not. Who would want to go and play at North Shore at the moment and get flogged every week. As their results show not many people. But drop down a division and all of a sudden there is some hope of actually being competitive and it all just flows from there players will want to play there. I guarantee a flag won in the second division is just as good as one won in the first division and third for that matter.

As for the Buckleys side of things I don't see why that wouldn't continue going forward as it is now. I shouldn't matter what division those GDFL clubs are in they should continue to receive what they do now as they were involved in it from the start so why would that change.
 
Spot on, it will also make it easier for new clubs like Armstong Creek or Warilily to enter the leagues, where geographically it prob makes more sense for them to be Bellarine but they would be uncompetitive for years until there juniors started coming through, with the next 3 or 4 div comp they can start and the bottom and establish themselves without getting pumped by 100 points every week.
 
muttonchops said:
Good I hope so. Yep there will be some pain and a bit of time to get used to it. But think of clubs like Portarlington, Newcomb, North Shore, Blue West. Clubs like this will fold eventually but something like this will give them hop of actually winning games. If it doesn't happen it will be just more of the same. Clubs like Bell Post Hill, North Geelong, Ammos, Queenscliff will have a chance to better themselves and instead of losing players who want to play at a higher level they may retain them because they will be able to stay there and play at a higher level.

Imagine North Shore, yep a proud club but are they proud enough to drop down a division? Why not. Who would want to go and play at North Shore at the moment and get flogged every week. As their results show not many people. But drop down a division and all of a sudden there is some hope of actually being competitive and it all just flows from there players will want to play there. I guarantee a flag won in the second division is just as good as one won in the first division and third for that matter.

As for the Buckleys side of things I don't see why that wouldn't continue going forward as it is now. I shouldn't matter what division those GDFL clubs are in they should continue to receive what they do now as they were involved in it from the start so why would that change.
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Portarlington will never fold.
 
muttonchops said:
Good I hope so. Yep there will be some pain and a bit of time to get used to it. But think of clubs like Portarlington, Newcomb, North Shore, Blue West. Clubs like this will fold eventually but something like this will give them hop of actually winning games. If it doesn't happen it will be just more of the same. Clubs like Bell Post Hill, North Geelong, Ammos, Queenscliff will have a chance to better themselves and instead of losing players who want to play at a higher level they may retain them because they will be able to stay there and play at a higher level.

Imagine North Shore, yep a proud club but are they proud enough to drop down a division? Why not. Who would want to go and play at North Shore at the moment and get flogged every week. As their results show not many people. But drop down a division and all of a sudden there is some hope of actually being competitive and it all just flows from there players will want to play there. I guarantee a flag won in the second division is just as good as one won in the first division and third for that matter.

As for the Buckleys side of things I don't see why that wouldn't continue going forward as it is now. I shouldn't matter what division those GDFL clubs are in they should continue to receive what they do now as they were involved in it from the start so why would that change.
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I played my early footy in Geelong, then on to Essendon DFL and finished in the Yarra Valley. Now living on Mornington Peninsula so have circumnavigated the bay and seen quite a lot of local footy in the close-up!
The latter two leagues I played (and administered) in had a coherent relegation system and it has been working well. The EDFL is growing with it! The GFL had three levels in those times with Woolworth and Jarman providing the lower two levels to the Hurst Cup. The relegation system was a little loose, to say the least, so movement was rare. Too parochial in its concept.
No club likes to be relegated - admission of failure - but it does give them a chance to regroup. Demographics, club culture/management and luck play their part, but in my experience it has definitely given some clubs a chance to survive where they may have folded . As mentioned above, members like success and can enjoy a win at a lower level more than a loss at the higher grade. Builds confidence and sets a realistic goal for the club to aspire to.
Yes, more powerful clubs/leagues will attract the ambitious kids, and that can result in the 'eternal poor'; lower clubs suffering as their future stocks are raided to prop up a despotic higher profile club.
But that exists without relegation. With a relegation system, aspiring clubs can at least get a chance.
Buckley's is a problem. The GDFL controls it and it has taken a life of its own. Not sure about how GDFL would be keen to let go of a money tree. Didn't help St Albans when it opened right next door, though.
I remember Blissy from my playing days and he is on the money. Talk such as this only speeds up the inevitable move to a relegation system. Plenty of successful working models for Football Geelong to work on and I'm sure PK will be onto it. They'll get it right if given the proper power and support.
And it will happen.
Go Cats!
 
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Monniehawk said:
I played my early footy in Geelong, then on to Essendon DFL and finished in the Yarra Valley. Now living on Mornington Peninsula so have circumnavigated the bay and seen quite a lot of local footy in the close-up!
The latter two leagues I played (and administered) in had a coherent relegation system and it has been working well. The EDFL is growing with it! The GFL had three levels in those times with Woolworth and Jarman providing the lower two levels to the Hurst Cup. The relegation system was a little loose, to say the least, so movement was rare. Too parochial in its concept.
No club likes to be relegated - admission of failure - but it does give them a chance to regroup. Demographics, club culture/management and luck play their part, but in my experience it has definitely given some clubs a chance to survive where they may have folded . As mentioned above, members like success and can enjoy a win at a lower level more than a loss at the higher grade. Builds confidence and sets a realistic goal for the club to aspire to.
Yes, more powerful clubs/leagues will attract the ambitious kids, and that can result in the 'eternal poor'; lower clubs suffering as their future stocks are raided to prop up a despotic higher profile club.
But that exists without relegation. With a relegation system, aspiring clubs can at least get a chance.
Buckley's is a problem. The GDFL controls it and it has taken a life of its own. Not sure about how GDFL would be keen to let go of a money tree. Didn't help St Albans when it opened right next door, though.
I remember Blissy from my playing days and he is on the money. Talk such as this only speeds up the inevitable move to a relegation system. Plenty of successful working models for Football Geelong to work on and I'm sure PK will be onto it. They'll get it right if given the proper power and support.
And it will happen.
Go Cats!
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I cant see any reason why the GDFL Clubs couldn't become equal shareholders in Buckley's and each receive an annual dividend from the revenue, so not sure why that would need to change if the leagues merged. The clubs should receive a better return as you wouldn't have the extra admin costs of running the league.
 
I thought it was only original GDFL clubs that got money from buckleys anyway, clubs like Winchelsea etc still get a dividend but it's not as much as the originals,correct me if I am wrong, bring on 4 divisions
 
Not sure really what I think about all of this. A three tier divisional competition would work well in some respects, but also being a traditionalist I would hate to see the Bellarine league lose its individual identity. There are ebbs and flows in the composition of the competition - Queenscliff, for example, might be a power now, but were in the same boat as Portarlington and Anglesea ladder wise for most of the 80s, 90s and early part of this century. Conversely Newcomb, a power club in this period, now struggles, as does Portarlington who were a power not that long ago. Talk of new clubs starting up around Torquay and Clifton Springs may well weaken the power base of the Tigers and Drysdale, who have been perennial powers. Change for the sake of change, in my experience, is never positive.
 
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