Politics The generational debate, and the state of the nation

[Wonaeamirri33]

An excellent discussion sparked off by Bosk on the Bay gave rise to a range of strong points around this topic, and I thought it deserved a more permanent location to continue on with the issues raised there.

As far as Gen X vs Gen Y, I think it's safe to say each successive generation over the last few decades has been more materialistic, more self-absorbed, and less willing to take action, or support action, to benefit the community in general. And more fearful of others.

That obviously being a product of the rise of a consumer culture based on self-gratification, to the point where consumerism is practically a religion, and the level of disconnection within the community now as much as anything else. The breakdown of the whole concept of community itself. As a society now, we are more and more isolated from each other, and less inclusive.

And our major established media organisations sell fear and loathing like it was ice-cream.

As far as the state of the country overall, I certainly also feel strongly we've seen a massive change for the worse.

Here's my opinion on the overall picture we're looking at.

People are having to work far longer hours, spend dramatically more to maintain the same standard of living, and there's dramatically less job security, declining access to employment overall. Our civil liberties are undermined and endangered across the board, incl. the right to protest, workers' rights, and our right to decide who governs us as a country for that matter.

The state of our environment is now critical, and I hate to think where we're heading particularly with global warming, deforestation, ocean acidification, and industrial pollution otherwise.

All these problems are worsening at a frightening rate, with dire consequences for our food security, our economy and our lives overall, given the increasing incidence of extreme weather events, rising sea levels, declining agriculture, tourism and fishing, as a direct result of global warming, acidification of our oceans and water shortages.

We've certainly seen and continue to see reducing access to public services, manifested in the continual decline of public education, primary, secondary and tertiary, schools closing, university funding going steadily downhill, fees for university education rising, and TAFE funding slashed.

And the decline in health care, continual cuts to funding for public hospitals, resulting in long and increasing waiting lists, and less access to GPs, especially in regional and rural areas.

The selling-off of public enterprises like Telecom, electric, water utilities and rail state by state, public transport in Melbourne etc, resulting in corners being cut, worsening services.

These stand out to me as the most obvious problems amongst many.

We're seeing dramatically increasing income inequality, with wages for executives and middle/upper management otherwise (and politicians!) skyrocketing, while the minimum wage is barely keeping pace with inflation, working conditions otherwise are being stripped from industrial awards, and the push is on again from within the LNP and their big business backers to enact something similar to Workchoices again or worse, more substantially undermine the right to collective bargaining, go further in busting up the union movement.

Consequentially, while public (government) debt remains bugger-all - despite the shrieking from certain quarters (although the hysterical actions taken to "rectify" this imaginary problem, usually asset sales, are in fact worsening the fiscal position in structural terms) - private debt is out of control and increasing exponentially.

Personal debt is dramatically higher now than ever before, having increased over 600% in the last two decades, to the point where it is now actually higher than Australia's annual GDP.

The situation with our national infrastructure overall, often neglected by governments over these years, especially Liberal/National govts - according to Infrastructure Australia, we have a current infrastructure spending deficit of $770 billion and widening.

The gap between us as citizens and our government is now a chasm.

Especially since our mainstream media has been corrupted to the point where it's basically just a propaganda machine for Rupert Murdoch, Gina Rinehart and their fellow-travellers.

And the influence of corporate vested interests over our government has never been greater, given the massive increase in private "donations" from said interests over the last few decades, to the point where Australia arguably has the highest levels of private campaign funding/capita in the Western World - worse even than America.

Will add some sourced info here over time, but thought this post with my opinions would kick things off well enough.

Hot Pocket, The Mighty Boosh, JimmyDE, Everton Lions, Les Norton, DangerSloane, Retired Jimmy, Northworth, Some Idiot

 

[wowlace]

As far as Gen X vs Gen Y, I think it's safe to say each successive generation over the last few decades has been more materialistic, more self-absorbed, and less willing to take action, or support action, to benefit the community in general. And more fearful of others.

Wona, in reply to that paragraph. I quote the great one.

"This is your world in which we grow......"

 

[Tulip]

There is a line of thought that we need a major disaster to be forced upon us for the world to change.

I'm not sure I agree or feel comfortable with the idea, but it holds merit when you consider the environmental catastrophes that face us if we don't shape up.

I disagree that Generation's X and Y are unwilling to help out their communities, because that has been an issue with every generation.

My personal ethos on consumerism is as follows. Variety in the wardrobe and on the bookshelf is fine, it's the useless gimmicks that are the most damaging to us.

Dylan Moran has a great skit relating to it.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

The breakdown in community is largely caused by the car, but certainly there is a psychological effect on younger generations with the emphasis on individualism over community. And due to the economic success brought about by individualism we have more money to act on our individualism, especially by driving and flying further, breaking down community further, as the amount of people we are in contact with more than once or twice a week (who aren't work colleagues) gets less-and-less.

But saying consumerism is a religion is over-the-top. It is simply that if you have less community activities, then people will fill their spare time with shopping instead. Particularly if they are too fat to play sport or go 4WDing or whatever.

The problem I guess is where you get the pressure on people to not act in a self-absorbed way. People tend to like doing what they feel like and if there is less community, there are less people around to tell you to 'get out of the house' or 'turn that computer/tv off' or 'get involved'.

I don't think politics plays a large part in it. What is the evidence for attacks on civil liberties and workers' rights? A lot of it is a beat-up, and where it might not be (say, the proposed laws against Bikie gangs) I don't think it's an easy thing to solve. I certainly feel free. The media is less informative, but that is because of the Internet, and the Internet does create new communities, even while it also seems to deepen some divides. Again, there's a risk that without pressure from people who disagree with you (telling you to 'get out of the house' or that maybe 'debt and deficit aren't ruining Australia') then you will get in a rut that you won't be compelled to get out of.

A lot of your post then seems to become a semi-apocalyptical grab-bag of problems, which don't seem generationally related to me. Our politics is still largely decided by the baby boomer demographic bump. Labor shot itself in the feet, rather than Abbott convincing people he would be a good leader (hence why the tables have turned on him very quickly), so I think keeping fighting the issues as they stand rather than worrying about a greater narrative of uncaring people.

There is a place for citizens to have more say in their Superannuaion to try and stop institutes passing greater wages for executives, but I don't think other economic problems are major. The theory goes that large private debt makes people work harder to pay it down. Housing prices won't drop unless their is a proper second massive economic crisis, and I don't think there will be as it all comes down to 'confidence' and despite scaremongering about China's 'real figures' I think the backbone of the world's economy is fine. The GFC shake-up brought a lot of bad investments to the top since govts were bailing out anyway.

But, yeah, you've gone way away from a discussion about generational differences! To conflate all these things is too Pessimistic in my view, and perhaps falls for the flaw of trying to view things strictly politically - which is what we dislike about SRP.

 

[Dory_77]

I agree a lot with what ROT said and would also like to add re: consumerism/materialism that the world itself has been heading in this direction for a long, long time. Being materialistic is hardly a trait that's begun amongst younger generations. The stereotypical 'Australian dream' of the suburban house with a nice yard, 2 cars in the drive and all the modern appliances and furnishings has existed for decades. As a result of this idealised notion of what our lives should include, people have had to work more to spend more. Again, this is not exactly a new thing; struggling with costs of living has always been a pretty big issue for most members of society.
On the political side of things: I don't think they'll be as bad as you may think. Government's are always going to compromise and do what suits their needs more than what suits the needs of the broader community (although this is not to say that the two cannot overlap; they often do). However, this doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to go out of their way to do things which substantially detriment the community and there are two sides to every decision. On one hand, cutting spending could limit our nations development and economic growth in a period of global instability; on the other hand it might be wise to take a more frugal approach and 'save for a rainy day' because that instability may cause another crisis. Personally I'm more inclined to agree that governments should continue to fund new and upgraded infrastructure so the economy can continue to grow and develop, but I can see why they would want to cut back in this period.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

On one hand, cutting spending could limit our nations development and economic growth in a period of global instability; on the other hand it might be wise to take a more frugal approach and 'save for a rainy day' because that instability may cause another crisis. Personally I'm more inclined to agree that governments should continue to fund new and upgraded infrastructure so the economy can continue to grow and develop, but I can see why they would want to cut back in this period.

The cuts are unnecessary because we don't have a significant public debt problem. Australian public debt remains close to the lowest in the Western World.

And pursuing austerity, in a period of global instability especially, doesn't significantly rectify a nation's debt position, and can even result in a worse balance sheet, because it means public disinvestment in the economy, thus a direct negative impact on GDP, coupled with a negative multiplier effect as the sum total of the various knock-on effects throughout the economy otherwise. There are numerous examples out there which prove the point, both recent and further back throughout modern history.

The public surplus fetish is a cancer on Australian public policy in urgent need of treatment - has been so for most of the last 17 years. There's never been any rational, coherent economic argument for it.

Thought we might be in remission, as it were, for a couple of years after '07, but it came back with a vengeance during the next election year (2010).

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

But, yeah, you've gone way away from a discussion about generational differences! To conflate all these things is too Pessimistic in my view, and perhaps falls for the flaw of trying to view things strictly politically - which is what we dislike about SRP.

Fair to say I do feel very pessimistic and disillusioned about the political landscape and the trajectory we're on as a country mate

Not conflating as such... as I say, it was inspired by another thread I saw, and covering the range of issues raised there.

Agree with some of what you said there, so I repped it, but other things I certainly query.

saying consumerism is a religion is over-the-top.

I strongly think consumerism is a driving force within our society as it is now. It seems like personal identity these days is more defined by what you own than what you do.

The media is less informative, but that is because of the Internet

Can't really support this conclusion either.

Difficult to see how Murdoch exercising such dominance within our media, with Rinehart seeking to play a similar role, our major media outlets overall being so substantially skewed towards right-wing and often extreme right partisanship - largely as a result of the actions of those two - the way talkback radio operates in Australia as a vehicle for political extremism, and Howard's actions in government, more or less successfully colonising the ABC for the Liberal Party, and carrying out similar political stacking within SBS, has anything to do with the Internet.

I don't think other economic problems are major.

I'd have to disagree here also - for instance, aside from the point about private debt, the "Dutch disease" syndrome we now find ourselves in appears a huge problem to my mind, with the high dollar as a result of the glut of mineral exports coming from Australia, steadily eroding every other major export industry here, while most of the profits from said mineral exports go overseas as well, or into the hands of a small number of super-rich.

Housing prices won't drop unless their is a proper second massive economic crisis, and I don't think there will be as it all comes down to 'confidence' and despite scaremongering about China's 'real figures' I think the backbone of the world's economy is fine.

Not if the US defaults on its debt, and I honestly don't see how a default in the relatively near future is avoidable there at this point.

What is the evidence for attacks on civil liberties and workers' rights?

The criminalisation of refugees is an especially obvious case, of course.

And by the way, it seems police who speak out against the "bikie laws" are being threatened with the sack also.

Aside from that here in Queensland - basically a hamfisted 'stealth' action to reintroduce Bjelke-Petersen era laws on freedom of assembly etc. - I also think Howard's anti-terror laws are a very good example. And I've seen plenty of evidence regarding crackdowns on the right to protest first-hand as well.

Regarding workers' rights, the two waves of Howard govt IR legislation each clearly amounted to a major assault. The first wave did, as I say, strip substantial provisions out of industrial awards, aside from the "secondary boycott" provisions in that legislation, designed to undermine the right to strike.

Aside from the plot Howard and Reith engaged in with Corrigan and the NFF to smash the MUA back in '98 (including the Dubai mercenaries affair, involving ex-Army personnel), initially sacking the entire MUA workforce en masse without any cause except that they were members of a union, subsequently prevented in the High Court, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Australian_waterfront_dispute

The second wave was Workchoices, as I mentioned before, representing an attempt to eliminate collective bargaining outright, dramatically undermining union right of entry onto work sites, further undermining the right to strike, forcing people onto individual contracts, removing protections against unfair dismissal, neutering the Industrial Relations Commission, replacing it with a commission whose members were appointed by Howard, with less union representation and transparency in its decision-making.

And even after the last government's vow to eliminate Workchoices, elements of it still exist, and of course, there's every reason to think the current government will seek to introduce the various other elements in one way or another.

The NSW O'Farrell Liberal govt's attack on public sector wages is also an example - their attack on workers' compensation is another. As part of an overall plan even acknowledged in the Murdoch press as worse than Workchoices. And the Victorian Baillieu Liberal govt attacked workers' compensation in similar fashion, of course. Aside from their attack on building unions, seeking to reintroduce the elements of Workchoices applying to the building industry at state level, which saw workplace deaths double when introduced Federally. Amongst other things. And there are certainly many other such attacks I could mention in other states also.

It's fair to say there's been a huge body of evidence on both fronts there, civil liberties and workers' rights.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Here's a speech back in '79 from Carter when he was President which I think is very relevant.

I've always felt he was extremely prescient in so much of what he said there (although naturally I don't share his religious views), and although he was obviously talking about the US, the points made could apply equally to Australia also.