Review The joke, the fools and the jester vs Suns

[footy4ever]

Not as a Senior Coach, but I wouldn't be against signing him as an Assistant.

We have a rookie senior coach, who is surrounded by assistants who (through incompetence or inexperience) provide little in the way of assistance. Nicks is out of his depth, and the Football Department isn't even providing him with a life jacket.

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I wouldn't be against him as a senior coach either. When he was first mentioned when the Crows were in the process of Coach searching I was aghast, but after thinking about and realising the shallow coaching pool, he'd have been a good option.

Nicks, he's on a hiding to nothing. I feel for the guy but he should be gone as soon as a tried and proven coach becomes buyable.

 

[Vader]

Myles should play this week.

Only if we're re-arranging deckchairs. The only reason to select Poholke is to "send a message" to the senior player being dropped - and even them I'm doubtful as to the effectiveness, given that the players have given up completely and are well past caring about "messages".

 

[pjcrows]

This sums it all up.

So in 2012 we signed Sanderson for 3 years for 2012-14. In early 2013, after just one full season and for no real reason, we extended that contract for two more years, essentially until 2016. We then sacked him the following year and had to pay him out.

Then in 2016 we signed Pyke for 3 years 2016-2018. In late 2016, after just one full season and for no real reason, we extended that contract for two more years, essentially until 2020. We then sacked him in 2019 and had to pay him out.

So our club administration made a bad judgement on Sanderson, then did exactly the same thing on Pyke, costing us literally millions in cap money to spend in the football department. We now have the single worst coaching department in the competition, starving a first-year coach in Nicks of a senior assistant, and stopgap coaches on each line.

Laughable.

 

[Vader]

I wouldn't be against him as a senior coach either. When he was first mentioned when the Crows were in the process of Coach searching I was aghast, but after thinking about and realising the shallow coaching pool, he'd have been a good option.

Nicks, he's on a hiding to nothing. I feel for the guy but he should be gone as soon as a tried and proven coach becomes buyable.

I feel sorry for Nicks. He is, as you say, on a hiding to nothing.

If you're going to hire a rookie senior coach, then you need to surround him with at least a couple of experienced assistants - and decent ones, not duds like Campo. We've given him a bunch of incompetents (Hart) and inexperienced assistants (Godden & Mattner).

Worse, Nicks has inherited a list which is in a truly awful state. Many of the senior players have completely given up and stopped trying. Poor recruiting and/or player development means that the cupboard is looking bare when it comes to replacing those senior players. We have potatoes like Gallucci, Poholke, Frampton & Himmelberg clogging our reserves, leaving little other than raw/unready 1st year players to bring in as replacements.

Nicks is a passenger in an aircraft which has lost all engines, caught fire, and is plummeting towards the ground.

 

[Murray2503]

Well done Talia. Those players he is talking about need to moved out asap. They will also get a shock that other clubs dont think as highly of them as they think of themselves. The tail has wagged the dog for too long down at west lakes.

 

[craig crowing]

Not as a Senior Coach, but I wouldn't be against signing him as an Assistant.

We have a rookie senior ach, who is surrounded by assistants who (through incompetence or inexperience) provide little in the way of assistance. Nicks is out of his depth, and the Football Department isn't even providing him with a life jacket.

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I agree 100% our assistants are a joke with no AFl experience or ability. Even if just get him or Scott or Roos who maybe impossible to get just work on Stoppages ,clearances or defensive actions etc leaving Nicks to sort out player selection ,development ,team commitment etc etc.for rest of season.

 

[Samcro24]

This sums it all up.

So in 2012 we signed Sanderson for 3 years for 2012-14. In early 2013, after just one full season and for no real reason, we extended that contract for two more years, essentially until 2016. We then sacked him the following year and had to pay him out.

Then in 2016 we signed Pyke for 3 years 2016-2018. In late 2016, after just one full season and for no real reason, we extended that contract for two more years, essentially until 2020. We then sacked him in 2019 and had to pay him out.

So our club administration made a bad judgement on Sanderson, then did exactly the same thing on Pyke, costing us literally millions in cap money to spend in the football department. We now have the single worst coaching department in the competition, starving a first-year coach in Nicks of a senior assistant, and stopgap coaches on each line.

Laughable.

Please donate your membership this year, we really, really, need da monies.

 

[CrowBloke]

1) We're already stuck with paying salaries for Betts & Jenkins, and have Gibbs & Walker both contracted for 2021, because JR gave them all contracts that were 1-2 years too long... 2) and you think they should have given a 28yo Greenwood a 4-year contract? **** no.

I respect you, so I'll try to explain ...
1) Two/three/four wrongs don't make a right. All 4 cases are very different.
Betts: I was one of many who thought Betts was over-the-hill, but watching his second, third and fourth efforts for Carlton vs Geelong, the way he moved into position (a forward, who runs into space!!) from the R forward pocket to snap a goal from the L of the square seconds later --- wow, Eddie! --- made me wish he was mentoring our small forwards if not still playing for us. Betts was a big loss. He hasn't lost his mojo; the AFC, the GF loss, the camp etc all broke his spirit and he stopped playing with that cheeky fun, verve and flair that he displayed on the weekend. Betts' long contract seemed justified at the time it was signed. It's easy to look back and say with time-travel logic, with hindsight, that the Crows shouldn't have broken their own rules, but I blame the Club for the Betts situation. Not Betts. It's laughable that we're paying for Eddie to Eddie-fy Geelong.
Jenkins: I was a big Jenkins fan when he was being reviled for kicking so many over-the-back ("easy") goals, but he wore off on me because he just didn't improve, kept making the same mistakes, and was clearly positioning himself for a media job in a loose-cannon way, to the detriment of his job which was playing well and kicking goals. Not a team man.
I'd pick Greenwood over Jenkins for a long contract, all day, every day. Greenwood's efforts and skills in close make Jenkins look lazy and laborious. Again, the Club's mistake.
Gibbs: giving away so much to get Gibbs after he turned his back on us was a huge mistake. He was perceived to be the answer to our mid/half-back problems, but has been almost completely ineffective since being with the Crows, who knew about his off-field issues and chased him hard, anyway. Another big AFC mistake.
Walker: is a mystery to me and a shadow of the player he was. When he was re-signed, who predicted he would deteriorate so much as a player? Having said that, it's hard to be an effective forward on the back of our current mids' woeful delivery (28 x I50 total, yesterday!).
2) Each player's story is mutually exclusive. The Club's negotiators can be mindful of previous mistakes, without deciding Greenwood's fate based on the JJ mess, say. The Greenwood situation was badly handled. It was a failure of negotiating skills in being unable to retain him, because
--- he was improving (look at the way he waltzed out of clearances yesterday and the ease with which he broke the Crows half-hearted tackles, laying 13 tackles of his own --- thirteen! --- more than our 'best' 2 tacklers combined in the same game)
--- he still played with aggressive spirit and intent, and most importantly,
--- he really wanted to stay with the Crows, and said so.
Who would you have preferred to be playing for us vs the Suns yesterday, Betts (with his Carlton game) or Murphy (who got pushed/worked off the ball with ease)? Seedsman as a mid, or Greenwood?
My choices would be Betts and Greenwood, who could show our young talent a lot about skill and multiple efforts (Betts) and pressure/tackling/contested footy (Greenwood).
I don't know the ins and outs of the Greenwood contract, but I suspect it wasn't about $s as much as longevity, which = security for Greenwood. OK, offer him security, but only as a reward for performance. In my own business, I negotiate and make deals every week, and would have busted my gut to retain Greenwood without having my judgment decided by previous mistakes (the JJ contract, especially). Greenwood wanted four years --- did they offer him anything close to what he wanted with a performance-clause saying that his 3rd- and 4th- years' ongoing extensions had to be contingent on his performances in the first 2, which would have been a fair resolution? We'll never know.
Anyway, when I posted: " I'd have him back in our midfield-rotating-forward on a 4-year deal in a heartbeat", it was on the back of crushing disappointment at our last 2 losses, in fact the last two years, and looking ahead to at least 2 years of misery.
I probably should have said "I wish Greenwood was playing for us, yesterday".

 

[Mutineer]

I feel sorry for Nicks. He is, as you say, on a hiding to nothing.

If you're going to hire a rookie senior coach, then you need to surround him with at least a couple of experienced assistants - and decent ones, not duds like Campo. We've given him a bunch of incompetents (Hart) and inexperienced assistants (Godden & Mattner).

Worse, Nicks has inherited a list which is in a truly awful state. Many of the senior players have completely given up and stopped trying. Poor recruiting and/or player development means that the cupboard is looking bare when it comes to replacing those senior players. We have potatoes like Gallucci, Poholke, Frampton & Himmelberg clogging our reserves, leaving little other than raw/unready 1st year players to bring in as replacements.

Nicks is a passenger in an aircraft which has lost all engines, caught fire, and is plummeting towards the ground.

Have you been able to spot a coherent playbook/game plan/structural set up yet?.....3 games in the only thing I've worked out is it's hold onto the ball too long and then go long up the line to an outnumbered contest.

 

[SaltPeter]

3 games in the only thing I've worked out is it's hold onto the ball too long and then go long up the line to an outnumbered contest.

It just looks like more of the same from the second half of last year

 

[DJ75]

This sums it all up.

So in 2012 we signed Sanderson for 3 years for 2012-14. In early 2013, after just one full season and for no real reason, we extended that contract for two more years, essentially until 2016. We then sacked him the following year and had to pay him out.

Then in 2016 we signed Pyke for 3 years 2016-2018. In late 2016, after just one full season and for no real reason, we extended that contract for two more years, essentially until 2020. We then sacked him in 2019 and had to pay him out.

So our club administration made a bad judgement on Sanderson, then did exactly the same thing on Pyke, costing us literally millions in cap money to spend in the football department. We now have the single worst coaching department in the competition, starving a first-year coach in Nicks of a senior assistant, and stopgap coaches on each line.

Laughable.

But we have really great people working at the club and they are trying really hard.
Why can't you customers just be happy or go and support another team?

 

[Flying_as_One1991]

Ok after stomaching through the replay to watch that disaster again. I don’t know what is worse watching it live or watching a replay knowing the result. There were a few things in my head I couldn’t help but noticing

Tex as a backup ruck…. Makes no sense the guy can’t even jump

Seedsman in the middle …. WTF!!!! And who was he on…. Matt Rowell.. you kidding me.

Jones was hardly seen in the middle until the last quarter again and when he did looked scared at times and didn’t actually want to go in and get the ball.

How bad is Brodie Smith right now!!!! Pick up a few touches in the last but was nowhere to be seen for 3 quarters


We got smashed in the clearances.

So many missed tackles or poor attempts of applying any physical pressure

I don’t care what anyone says, but Murphy isn’t AFL standard. Sure he tries and has a red hot go, but he offers nothing, and why do we insist on kicking to him one on one.


We have nobody and I repeat nobody to take a contested mark in our forward line. So why bomb it in there and hope. The guys in there can’t even bring the ball to ground and when they do it goes straight out with ease.


I thought Hamill has potential and run and dash out the backline could be good but need more of it and keeps to play with confidence

McAsey got dominated early but thought go better as the game went along, but had no chance to develop and being thrown straight into the firing line and we can’t keep the ball out of our backline. Maybe a stint up forward might help for a few weeks.

I am concerned that we are no where near fit enough for an AFL Team. The boys looked puffed out In shorten quarters and when Jones in his second season is your “elite” runner at the club you have problems,

A lot of our depth has been hampered by refusal to play the youth in the past. I feel that the development of our younger players has gone backwards because of this and I take my hat off to Nicks for actually giving the young lads a run.

 

[Vader]

I respect you, so I'll try to explain ...
1) Two/three/four wrongs don't make a right. All 4 cases are very different.
Betts: I was one of many who thought Betts was over-the-hill, but watching his second, third and fourth efforts for Carlton vs Geelong, the way he moved into position (a forward, who runs into space!!) from the R forward pocket to snap a goal from the L of the square seconds later --- wow, Eddie! --- made me wish he was mentoring our small forwards if not still playing for us. Betts was a big loss. He hasn't lost his mojo; the AFC, the GF loss, the camp etc all broke his spirit and he stopped playing with that cheeky fun, verve and flair that he displayed on the weekend. Betts' long contract seemed justified at the time it was signed. It's easy to look back and say with time-travel logic, with hindsight, that the Crows shouldn't have broken their own rules, but I blame the Club for the Betts situation. Not Betts. It's laughable that we're paying for Eddie to Eddie-fy Geelong.
Jenkins: I was a big Jenkins fan when he was being reviled for kicking so many over-the-back ("easy") goals, but he wore off on me because he just didn't improve, kept making the same mistakes, and was clearly positioning himself for a media job in a loose-cannon way, to the detriment of his job which was playing well and kicking goals. Not a team man.
I'd pick Greenwood over Jenkins for a long contract, all day, every day. Greenwood's efforts and skills in close make Jenkins look lazy and laborious. Again, the Club's mistake.
Gibbs: giving away so much to get Gibbs after he turned his back on us was a huge mistake. He was perceived to be the answer to our mid/half-back problems, but has been almost completely ineffective since being with the Crows, who knew about his off-field issues and chased him hard, anyway. Another big AFC mistake.
Walker: is a mystery to me and a shadow of the player he was. When he was re-signed, who predicted he would deteriorate so much as a player? Having said that, it's hard to be an effective forward on the back of our current mids' woeful delivery (28 x I50 total, yesterday!).
2) Each player's story is mutually exclusive. The Club's negotiators can be mindful of previous mistakes, without deciding Greenwood's fate based on the JJ mess, say. The Greenwood situation was badly handled. It was a failure of negotiating skills in being unable to retain him, because
--- he was improving (look at the way he waltzed out of clearances yesterday and the ease with which he broke the Crows half-hearted tackles, laying 13 tackles of his own --- thirteen! --- more than our 'best' 2 tacklers combined in the same game)
--- he still played with aggressive spirit and intent, and most importantly,
--- he really wanted to stay with the Crows, and said so.
Who would you have preferred to be playing for us vs the Suns yesterday, Betts (with his Carlton game) or Murphy (who got pushed/worked off the ball with ease)? Seedsman as a mid, or Greenwood?
My choices would be Betts and Greenwood, who could show our young talent a lot about skill and multiple efforts (Betts) and pressure/tackling/contested footy (Greenwood).
I don't know the ins and outs of the Greenwood contract, but I suspect it wasn't about $s as much as longevity, which = security for Greenwood. OK, offer him security, but only as a reward for performance. In my own business, I negotiate and make deals every week, and would have busted my gut to retain Greenwood without having my judgment decided by previous mistakes (the JJ contract, especially). Greenwood wanted four years --- did they offer him anything close to what he wanted with a performance-clause saying that his 3rd- and 4th- years' ongoing extensions had to be contingent on his performances in the first 2, which would have been a fair resolution? We'll never know.
Anyway, when I posted: " I'd have him back in our midfield-rotating-forward on a 4-year deal in a heartbeat", it was on the back of crushing disappointment at our last 2 losses, in fact the last two years, and looking ahead to at least 2 years of misery.
I probably should have said "I wish Greenwood was playing for us, yesterday".

There are several questions in here..

Firstly Betts vs Murphy. My answer is neither. Betts was done at the Crows, and won't be around for much longer anyway. Murphy is barely AFL standard and is an extremely limited player. My preference would be Stengle, but he's currently suspended after being busted for DUI.

As for Greenwood... Nothing he showed yesterday was an improvement on what he did when he was at the Crows. The main sticking point on his contract was his demand for a 4-year contract. Money didn't seem to be an issue, but 4-years was his non-negotiable and he had other clubs willing to meet his terms. Greenwood is 28 years old, so 4 years would have meant that we were stuck with him playing at age 31. That was just too long for a fringe player who rarely plays consistently from quarter to quarter. The decision to let him go wasn't about what was right for the Crows in R3 2020, but what was right for the club in 2021, 2022 and 2023. This was one decision that the list managers got 100% right, and I don't say that about a whole lot of their decisions.

 

[Mutineer]

It just looks like more of the same from the second half of last year

Worked well for Don....Take the game on and put the pressure back on the opposition, this holding onto the ball too long and going the get out kick long down the line is bullshit, leaves the corridor open when the oppo 9 times out of 10 bring the ball to ground take possession and switch play or go direct down the corridor. Both Port and the Gold Coast did it numerous times and with their fast ball movement our defenders have no hope especially the inexperienced McAsey who in my opinion has been quite impressive considering the delivery his opposition has been receiving.

 

[Vader]

Have you been able to spot a coherent playbook/game plan/structural set up yet?.....3 games in the only thing I've worked out is it's hold onto the ball too long and then go long up the line to an outnumbered contest.

There were times I could see something during the pre-season games, and even for a few moments during the R1 loss to Sydney. Nothing since then.

With the exception of the first 5 minutes of the Port game, and the first 10 minutes of the 2nd Q against GC, we've been dancing entirely to the opposition's tune. How much of that is due to Nicks, and how much is due to the players, is anyone's guess. Given Nicks' evident frustrations, it's fairly obvious that the players aren't doing what he wants, so a fair bit of the onus probably lies on the players being in survival/individual mode and not playing to the team gameplan he's constructed.

 

[SaltPeter]

Worked well for Don....Take the game on and put the pressure back on the opposition, this holding onto the ball too long and going the get out kick long down the line is bullshit, leaves the corridor open when the oppo 9 times out of 10 bring the ball to ground take possession and switch play or go direct down the corridor. Both Port and the Gold Coast did it numerous times and with their fast ball movement our defenders have no hope especially the inexperienced McAsey who in my opinion has been quite impressive considering the delivery his opposition has been receiving.

Not sure we won too many games in the second half of last year. Can't be bothered looking it up.

 

[Mutineer]

Not sure we won too many games in the second half of last year. Can't be bothered looking it up.

Because in 2019 Don completely re-jigged our game plan , no run and gun, play on at every opportunity to a hang onto the ball, kick backwards or short, retain possession, slow ball movement killed us......only problem you need highly skilled players by foot to make that work. I'll never work out why he went away from from the game plan he brought to the club with him. A big overreaction from losing a grand final where the players seemed overawed and just didn't turn up on the day when were clearly the best side in 2017 up to that fateful day.

 

[Murray2503]

There are several questions in here..

Firstly Betts vs Murphy. My answer is neither. Betts was done at the Crows, and won't be around for much longer anyway. Murphy is barely AFL standard and is an extremely limited player. My preference would be Stengle, but he's currently suspended after being busted for DUI.

As for Greenwood... Nothing he showed yesterday was an improvement on what he did when he was at the Crows. The main sticking point on his contract was his demand for a 4-year contract. Money didn't seem to be an issue, but 4-years was his non-negotiable and he had other clubs willing to meet his terms. Greenwood is 28 years old, so 4 years would have meant that we were stuck with him playing at age 31. That was just too long for a fringe player who rarely plays consistently from quarter to quarter. The decision to let him go wasn't about what was right for the Crows in R3 2020, but what was right for the club in 2021, 2022 and 2023. This was one decision that the list managers got 100% right, and I don't say that about a whole lot of their decisions.

Betts's partner was going back to melb with or without him. He was also cooked and he still is. One good quarter at Geelong doesn't mean he isn't cooked. He will get owned by a half decent back all year.
Greenwood would have made no difference yesterday. The only difference would have maybe been the margin. He was average and needed to go. Just like Atkins, Kelly, Hartigan, Mackay, Poholke, Murphy, Knight, Gibbs, Walker, Lynch, Bcrouch, Laird, Keays, Seedsman, Frampton, Himmelberg, Wilson, Strachan also need to go. Our list has been left in a terrible state by Riccuito and his cohorts. The worst list management since the Afl's nception. We will be paying for Betts, Jenkins, Gibbs, Walker and likely Lynch's contracts up to the end this year or next. It's gonna take years to sort out their ineptitude.

 

[spenze]

Only if we're re-arranging deckchairs. The only reason to select Poholke is to "send a message" to the senior player being dropped - and even them I'm doubtful as to the effectiveness, given that the players have given up completely and are well past caring about "messages".

Just for an idea, we could try him in the guts instead of putting him on a half forward flank with one go at a cenntre bounce. If we are going to stamp his papers...and I think we might, may as well see how he goes in the spot he was born to play

 

[Anzacpaul]

Have you been able to spot a coherent playbook/game plan/structural set up yet?.....3 games in the only thing I've worked out is it's hold onto the ball too long and then go long up the line to an outnumbered contest.

When your list is garbage, you always look like you have no game plan. The opposition are so much better than you, that any game plan you have doesn't work.

You're always under pressure, always out of position, second to the ball, no space etc.

We are a bottom 2 team, with an inexperienced list and senior players that are cooked.

The best we can hope for in the next 12-18 months is for some of our young players to show something, and Nicks work to bring the team together as the youth get some games under their belt.


You don't look competitive and lose games by a couple of goals when you're a bottom 2 team. You look exactly like we have the last 2 weeks.

 

[Vader]

Just for an idea, we could try him in the guts instead of putting him on a half forward flank with one go at a cenntre bounce. If we are going to stamp his papers...and I think we might, may as well see how he goes in the spot he was born to play

We tried that in 2018... that's why they tried him on the HFF in 2019. He just has nothing to offer at AFL level. He's a reincarnation of Mitch Grigg.

 

[Geoffa32]

Deep I50? Right now we're struggling to get the ball past the centre circle. It's hard to get it deep I50, when the ball is spending 80% of the time deep in the opposition's forward half.

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Because we won't take the game on and the opposition know this so take away the safe options out to hem us in.

I am not suggesting this as a winning game plan. But one that will at least promote movement across the ground with a young (and told older) playing group.

You learn more having fun than dealing with frustration.

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[Scorpus]

The biggest issue with our midfield right now is that in close, we are handballing to where players are, not where we want them to be.

If you look at how the winning teams on the weekend went about it, you'll see midfielders handballing to space, forcing their team mates to get there, get the receive or ground ball, and work into open space.

Our midfield, in particular Matt, Brad and Smith (you could throw in Laird too), always handball DIRECTLY to where a player is. Often they're flat footed as a result. No dynamic movement and no breaking away from the packs.

 

[Sack Chapman]

Yeah I watched it. Thought he still doesn't totally get it. His structure and selection is completely wrong. No point in him being upset. Good opportunity for him to put his mark on the club if he is up to it.

How can he put his mark on the club when we are so devoid of talent both on and off the field. The only thing he can do is keep playing the kids and the club and supporters live to accept the 10+ goal losses. I feel for him as he in a no win situation.

 

[Geoffa32]

The biggest issue with our midfield right now is that in close, we are handballing to where players are, not where we want them to be.

If you look at how the winning teams on the weekend went about it, you'll see midfielders handballing to space, forcing their team mates to get there, get the receive or ground ball, and work into open space.

Our midfield, in particular Matt, Brad and Smith (you could throw in Laird too), always handball DIRECTLY to where a player is. Often they're flat footed as a result. No dynamic movement and no breaking away from the packs.

You sound like my u/13 coach.


Put the ball where your team mate will be, not where they are.

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