Strategy The System

[northcotehead]

So we are a system based team. Can someone more intelligent than me enlighten me on what that actually means. Fly refers to 'the system' in every presser. Are other teams not system based? Does our system rely on us applying manic pressure for a selected period of time and then 'resting' or 'consolidating', which then allows the opposition to come back. What the he'll is the system?

 

[Chameleon75]

Give it to nick, the rest is details

 

[KillerMagpies]

So we are a system based team. Can someone more intelligent than me enlighten me on what that actually means. Fly refers to 'the system' in every presser. Are other teams not system based? Does our system rely on us applying manic pressure for a selected period of time and then 'resting' or 'consolidating', which then allows the opposition to come back. What the he'll is the system?

Stick to the script. Otherwise, go take a shower.
Noble was reminded on Friday night.

 

[doofdoof]

Stick to the script. Otherwise, go take a shower.
Noble was reminded on Friday night.

I really hope Bytel, Markov and Fin were not sticking to the script.

 

[doofdoof]

So we are a system based team. Can someone more intelligent than me enlighten me on what that actually means. Fly refers to 'the system' in every presser. Are other teams not system based? Does our system rely on us applying manic pressure for a selected period of time and then 'resting' or 'consolidating', which then allows the opposition to come back. What the he'll is the system?

Every team claims to have a system or "our game".

The media also refers to some teams as "system" teams when they don't think highly of the talent level.

The main problem with the philosophy of sticking to a system is when it has been worked out.Then the coaching group needs to be able to adjust on the fly.

I think our "system" rises or falls based on one thing. Pressure.

We control the game when we bring pressure. When that drops we look mediocre.

 

[sideswipe]

So we are a system based team. Can someone more intelligent than me enlighten me on what that actually means. Fly refers to 'the system' in every presser. Are other teams not system based? Does our system rely on us applying manic pressure for a selected period of time and then 'resting' or 'consolidating', which then allows the opposition to come back. What the he'll is the system?

“Keeping our shape” is one part of it



On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I’m sure there is a lot more nuance to it, but the cornerstones of our “system” revolve around fast players, high tackling and referred pressure, intercept marking in defence, and equally not allowing being outmarked in our own F50. Once the ball is inside our forward 50m, we set up to lock it in like every other team.

Not much of our system is that unique, but the high priority on pace over other attributes, and the low priority on a single key forward target or gorilla defender might open up draft/trade inefficiencies we can exploit.

 

[beerbandit]

Stick to the script. Otherwise, go take a shower.
Noble was reminded on Friday night.

Noble had a few moments he’d like back, but I feel that could have waited for a 1 on 1 chat after the game, he was providing far more then Johnson.

Krueger did ok I guess in VFL, probably worth a shot on KB, as May will lick his lips on Johnson.

 

[76woodenspooners]

So we are a system based team. Can someone more intelligent than me enlighten me on what that actually means. Fly refers to 'the system' in every presser. Are other teams not system based? Does our system rely on us applying manic pressure for a selected period of time and then 'resting' or 'consolidating', which then allows the opposition to come back. What the he'll is the system?

Great question

IMO …

(1) We have 18 roles on the field.

(2) They’re likely broken down into a smaller number of uniquely different roles. For example, the two wing roles may be the same. But let’s ignore that detail for this.

(3) Players are trained to fill different roles. For example, Cameron will be trained in the ruck role(call it role #1), and in the tall forward role (call it role #15). Important note that the tall forward role is different to CHF/KPF, because ‘CHF’ / ‘KPF’ are typically associated with a player, as in Mihocek is a CHF/KPF. We could technically put Maynard in the tall forward role, although he wouldn’t be a very good one because he’s not a CHF/KPF, but he could be trained to do the tall forward role things to the best of his ability. And a lot of that kind of thing is happening in our team at the moment because of injuries. Also, field positions like “CHF” were defined a long time ago when the game was played very differently. These days it’s not uncommon to see somebody who is a “CHF” venturing into the defensive half.

(4) Think of it like the way a composer or a playwright operates - Mozart and Shakespeare died centuries ago, so they’re not able to instruct musicians and actors today what they’re meant to do. But instead, they’ve defined what the person playing the violin soloist role needs to do, and what the actor playing the Macbeth role needs to do. And they’ve clearly defined what all the roles around them need to do - each instrument in the orchestra and and each character in the play - and this is what makes everything coordinated. This is the system.

(5) Footy is a bit more complicated than a symphony or a play, because in a symphony or a play you don’t have an opponent that needs to be reacted to. How this works in football / system is that each role has different things that they are expected to do at different phases of the game - whether we have the ball, the opposition has the ball, or the ball is in dispute. And if the ball is in their vicinity or not in their vicinity. And if we are in front, or the opposition is in front / draw. And if it is or isn’t in the last period of the game. Think of it like having an audience of hecklers, and the actors on the stage need to cleanly and seamlessly switch between acting out Macbeth or Death of a Salesman based on what the hecklers are doing. (Check out Theatresports if you want to see what that looks like in reality). Remember when Sullivan got pinged for not returning the ball to the umpire? Nick was yelling out “Reset”, which was the reminder that everyone needed to get on with it and switch the game phase for their role.

(6) Some actions will be unique to a role - the ruck being an obvious example. Some will be common, for example, if (a) the ball is locked up and (b) you’re in the vicinity, then you rush to help lock the ball up - no matter which of the 18 roles you’re playing.

(7) This is how at times the fans can see the game very different to the coaches do. Fans are looking at it from the point of view of goals and marks and tackles. Coaches are looking at it from the point of view of how well the player who is playing role #14 is doing all the things expected of role #14. And they will take into account the player’s experience with the role and how well they’re learning.

(8) What’s the alternative? Treat players as players. “Nick, do this”, and “Frampton do that”. Mick used to say “‘players are not robots” and this system method we play does kinda treat players as robots on the field. But it’s effective.

(9) Why have a system? Multiple reasons:

(a) It allows us to be more adaptable - if players get injured or are not matching up well on their opponent, the coaches can simply say “Hey Maynard, we need you to move from role #3 to role #12”, and Maynard will understand what that requires him to do - where to position himself, what to do when the Oppo has the ball, we have the ball, the ball is in dispute, we are in front, the oppo is in front, etc, etc. A recent example of this is that Frampton playing the role he normally plays (Back role) would always stand the mark. But on Friday night he played a forward role, where they typically go back to the five when they can, but Frampton (not unreasonably) clearly struggled to adapt to that requirement of the different role, which is why he gave away 50m penalties.

(b) It allows the coaches to break the game down tactically and strategically. Did we lose because (a) players weren’t playing their role as well as they needed to? (corrective action: better train the players to perform the role) or (b) players aren’t suited to their role? (corrective action: recruit) or because the gameplan wasn’t good enough (corrective action: change what the roles need to do) . The true answer will always be some combination of these, and it’s why Fly bangs on about “we are not a finished product”.

(c) It provides a useful framework of what the players need to know and learn. A forward line player might have zero clue about how the ball came out of the backline and made its way to him (that’s the role of others), but he will know in intricate detail what is expected of him at all times.

(d) It is less reliant on player talent and instinct. You still need some talent, because players still need to win their contests. But it’s a lot easier to win a contest when the system has led to your team having more numbers at the contest, and your team are able to coordinate better with each other to get the ball towards their goals.

(e) A champion team will usually beat a team of champions.

(10) Disadvantages? It requires players to have classroom smarts. That might explain why our draft decisions sometimes don’t make sense to us. There’s every chance that the reason we picked up Smit had as much to do with his ability to learn (bilingual, music studies) as his height.

 

[manicpie]

Carlton used to use a system that included brown paper bags, everyone has a system and if I could work it out, I'd be in the system of an AFL club

 

[Vicky Park]

Great question

IMO …

(1) We have 18 roles on the field.

(2) They’re likely broken down into a smaller number of uniquely different roles. For example, the two wing roles may be the same. But let’s ignore that detail for this.

(3) Players are trained to fill different roles. For example, Cameron will be trained in the ruck role(call it role #1), and in the tall forward role (call it role #15). Important note that tall forward is different to CHF, because ‘CHF’ is typically associated with a player, as in Mihocek is a CHF. We could technically put Maynard in the tall forward role, although he wouldn’t be a very good one because he’s not a CHF, but he could be trained to do the tall forward things to the best of his ability. Also, field positions like “CHF” were defined a long time ago when the game was played very differently. These days it’s not uncommon to see somebody who is a “CHF” venturing into the defensive half.

(4) Think of it like the way a composer or a playwright operates - Mozart and Shakespeare died centuries ago, so they’re not able to instruct musicians and actors today what they’re meant to do. But instead, they’ve defined what the person playing the violin soloist role needs to do, and what the actor playing the Macbeth role needs to do. And they’ve clearly defined what all the roles around them - each instrument in the orchestra and and each character in the play - and this is what makes everything coordinated. This is the system.

(5) Footy is a bit more complicated than a symphony or a play, because in a symphony or a play you don’t have an opponent that needs to be reacted to. How this works in football / system is that each role has different things that they are expected to do at different phases of the game - whether we have the ball, the opposition has the ball, or the ball is in dispute. And if the ball is in their vicinity or not in their vicinity. And if we are in front, or the opposition is in front / draw. And if it’s in the last period of the game. (Or not). Think of it like having an audience of hecklers, and the people on the stage need to cleanly and seamlessly switch between acting out Macbeth or Death of a Salesman based on the performance of the hecklers. (Check out Theatresports if you want to see what that looks like in reality)

(6) Some actions will be unique to a role - the ruck being an obvious example. Some will be common, for example, if (a) the ball is locked up and (b) you’re in the vicinity, then you rush to help lock the ball up - no matter which of the 18 roles you’re playing.

(7) This is how at times the fans can see the game very different to the coaches do. Fans are looking at it from the point of view of goals and marks and tackles. Coaches are looking at it from the point of view of how well the player who is playing role #14 is doing all the things expected of role #14. And they will take into account the player’s experience with the role and how well they’re learning.

(8) What’s the alternative? Treat players as players. “Nick, do this”, and “Frampton do that”. Mick used to say “‘players are not robots” and this system method we play does kinda treat players as robots on the field. But it’s effective.

(9) Why have a system? Multiple reasons:

(a) It allows us to be more adaptable - if players get injured or are not matching up well on their opponent, the coaches can simply say “Hey Maynard, we need you to move from role #3 to role #12”, and Maynard will understand what that requires him to do - where to position himself, what to do when the Oppo has the ball, we have the ball, the ball is in dispute, we are in front, the oppo is in front, etc, etc. A recent example of this is that Frampton playing the role he normally plays (Back role) would always stand the mark. But on Friday night he played a forward role, where they typically go back to the five when they can, but Frampton (not unreasonably) clearly struggled to adapt to that requirement of the different role, which is why he gave away 50m penalties.

(b) It allows the coaches to break the game down tactically and strategically. Did we lose because (a) players weren’t playing their role as well as they needed to? (corrective action: better train the players to perform the role) or (b) players aren’t suited to their role? (corrective action: recruit) or because the gameplan wasn’t good enough (corrective action: change what the roles need to do) . The true answer will always be some combination of these, and it’s why Fly bangs on about “we are not a finished product”.

(c) It provides a useful framework of what the players need to know and learn. A forward line player might have zero clue about how the ball came out of the backline and made its way to him (that’s the role of others), but he will know in intricate detail what is expected of him at all times.

(d) It is less reliant on player talent and instinct. You still need some talent, because players still need to win their contests. But it’s a lot easier to win a contest when the system has led to your team having more numbers at the contest, and your team are able to coordinate better with each other to get the ball towards their goals.

(e) A champion team will usually beat a team of champions.

(10) Disadvantages? It requires players to have classroom smarts. That might explain why our draft decisions sometimes don’t make sense to us. There’s every chance that the reason we picked up Smit had as much to do with his ability to learn (bilingual, music studies) as his height.

Good work 76.

Ginni+system=gone

 

[ThePhantom777]

I’m sure there is a lot more nuance to it, but the cornerstones of our “system” revolve around fast players, high tackling and referred pressure, intercept marking in defence, and equally not allowing being outmarked in our own F50. Once the ball is inside our forward 50m, we set up to lock it in like every other team.

Not much of our system is that unique, but the high priority on pace over other attributes, and the low priority on a single key forward target or gorilla defender might open up draft/trade inefficiencies we can exploit.

Fly made a comment post match about the new tackle interpretation. Said that reward for tackle is good because we tackle a lot.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Fly made a comment post match about the new tackle interpretation. Said that reward for tackle is good because we tackle a lot.

View attachment 2008207View attachment 2008208View attachment 2008209View attachment 2008210

Yep I suggested before the match that rewarding tackling would be to our advantage as a high-pressure team.

 

[Chameleon75]

Yep I suggested before the match that rewarding tackling would be to our advantage as a high-pressure team.

plus with the ball being released quicker, it spills to the outside which suits us how we like to run and move it quickly. It would suck if you’re a team that’s built your game around creating stoppages though.

 

[northcotehead]

That was epic. Thanks 76 for that great explanation. I feel like I've just entered a new realm of understanding of our system. Interesting how your theory suggests we draft 'intellegent' players over visceral talent it makes me think Fly is smarter than his contemporaries and is trying to develop a team of thinkers rather than raw instinctive types. Time will tell if it works. I feel the system works because 1) we are still in games despite our massive out's and 2) we won a flag without a power forward. I reckon we only need one of Checkers/Elliott back, Pendles and Jordy and we give the finals a serious shake , even from bottom 8. No team will want to play us.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

plus with the ball being released quicker, it spills to the outside which suits us how we like to run and move it quickly. It would suck if you’re a team that’s built your game around creating stoppages though.

Depends on how it spills. If we’ve committed three players to the tackle, we’ve got to lock the ball in, because if it gets to the outside of the contest then we’re outnumbered.

Hence why throwing the ball out works as long as the umpires don’t call it. Adelaide and the Bulldogs both did this.

 

[Kes1984]

Ask Ginnivan to explain it.

Seriously though, all teams have “systems” or game plans. But some would allow more freedom to be given to the players.

I think we have a set plan. You play your role. No ad libbing.

 

[northcotehead]

I wonder if Noble got subbed off for not following the system. Maybe Fly doesn't like him venturing to forward. He did set up a couple of chances though.

 

[manicpie]

I wonder if Noble got subbed off for not following the system. Maybe Fly doesn't like him venturing to forward. He did set up a couple of chances though.

No one really knows why JFN was subbed. It seemed like a very strange move. I'm blaming hamstring awareness

 

[FireKrakouer]

I'm no expert on footy strategy, but one thing I believe Fly does exceptionally well is accept that it is a game of momentum and when to pick our battles.

I recall hearing him in an interview saying that they hold up signs that read either "Rocca" or "Presti". He refused to elaborate when asked, but my understanding is that it simply means attacking or defensive footy. We all love seeing the manic pressure game and know that it is when the team thrive. However, it cannot be sustained throughout the whole game. Anyone who has played the game at any level understands that by the 4th quarter most players are getting sore and fatigued.

I think this accounts for our many close finishes. We apply that pressure game when we need to and try to save a bit in the tank for the final 5 minutes of the game. Obviously it is not a perfect system but given that Fly won a flag in his second year coaching I think it is safe to back him in.

 

[manicpie]

The System or the Time Sniper, one of them is responsible. I'm going with time Sniper

 

[domus]

Stick to the script. Otherwise, go take a shower.
Noble was reminded on Friday night.

I thought the script was play with freedom, take risks and if you make a mistake (or two) use the windscreen wipers to wash them away and go again! Unless you are John Noble.

 

[gerryg400]

Fly made a comment post match about the new tackle interpretation. Said that reward for tackle is good because we tackle a lot.
View attachment 2008207View attachment 2008208View attachment 2008209View attachment 2008210

Our next 2 opponents are very low on all those lists.

 

[KillerMagpies]

I thought the script was play with freedom, take risks and if you make a mistake (or two) use the windscreen wipers to wash them away and go again! Unless you are John Noble.

Agreed.

 

[The Phantom]

Great question

IMO …

(1) We have 18 roles on the field.

(2) They’re likely broken down into a smaller number of uniquely different roles. For example, the two wing roles may be the same. But let’s ignore that detail for this.

(3) Players are trained to fill different roles. For example, Cameron will be trained in the ruck role(call it role #1), and in the tall forward role (call it role #15). Important note that the tall forward role is different to CHF/KPF, because ‘CHF’ / ‘KPF’ are typically associated with a player, as in Mihocek is a CHF/KPF. We could technically put Maynard in the tall forward role, although he wouldn’t be a very good one because he’s not a CHF/KPF, but he could be trained to do the tall forward role things to the best of his ability. And a lot of that kind of thing is happening in our team at the moment because of injuries. Also, field positions like “CHF” were defined a long time ago when the game was played very differently. These days it’s not uncommon to see somebody who is a “CHF” venturing into the defensive half.

(4) Think of it like the way a composer or a playwright operates - Mozart and Shakespeare died centuries ago, so they’re not able to instruct musicians and actors today what they’re meant to do. But instead, they’ve defined what the person playing the violin soloist role needs to do, and what the actor playing the Macbeth role needs to do. And they’ve clearly defined what all the roles around them need to do - each instrument in the orchestra and and each character in the play - and this is what makes everything coordinated. This is the system.

(5) Footy is a bit more complicated than a symphony or a play, because in a symphony or a play you don’t have an opponent that needs to be reacted to. How this works in football / system is that each role has different things that they are expected to do at different phases of the game - whether we have the ball, the opposition has the ball, or the ball is in dispute. And if the ball is in their vicinity or not in their vicinity. And if we are in front, or the opposition is in front / draw. And if it is or isn’t in the last period of the game. Think of it like having an audience of hecklers, and the actors on the stage need to cleanly and seamlessly switch between acting out Macbeth or Death of a Salesman based on what the hecklers are doing. (Check out Theatresports if you want to see what that looks like in reality). Remember when Sullivan got pinged for not returning the ball to the umpire? Nick was yelling out “Reset”, which was the reminder that everyone needed to get on with it and switch the game phase for their role.

(6) Some actions will be unique to a role - the ruck being an obvious example. Some will be common, for example, if (a) the ball is locked up and (b) you’re in the vicinity, then you rush to help lock the ball up - no matter which of the 18 roles you’re playing.

(7) This is how at times the fans can see the game very different to the coaches do. Fans are looking at it from the point of view of goals and marks and tackles. Coaches are looking at it from the point of view of how well the player who is playing role #14 is doing all the things expected of role #14. And they will take into account the player’s experience with the role and how well they’re learning.

(8) What’s the alternative? Treat players as players. “Nick, do this”, and “Frampton do that”. Mick used to say “‘players are not robots” and this system method we play does kinda treat players as robots on the field. But it’s effective.

(9) Why have a system? Multiple reasons:

(a) It allows us to be more adaptable - if players get injured or are not matching up well on their opponent, the coaches can simply say “Hey Maynard, we need you to move from role #3 to role #12”, and Maynard will understand what that requires him to do - where to position himself, what to do when the Oppo has the ball, we have the ball, the ball is in dispute, we are in front, the oppo is in front, etc, etc. A recent example of this is that Frampton playing the role he normally plays (Back role) would always stand the mark. But on Friday night he played a forward role, where they typically go back to the five when they can, but Frampton (not unreasonably) clearly struggled to adapt to that requirement of the different role, which is why he gave away 50m penalties.

(b) It allows the coaches to break the game down tactically and strategically. Did we lose because (a) players weren’t playing their role as well as they needed to? (corrective action: better train the players to perform the role) or (b) players aren’t suited to their role? (corrective action: recruit) or because the gameplan wasn’t good enough (corrective action: change what the roles need to do) . The true answer will always be some combination of these, and it’s why Fly bangs on about “we are not a finished product”.

(c) It provides a useful framework of what the players need to know and learn. A forward line player might have zero clue about how the ball came out of the backline and made its way to him (that’s the role of others), but he will know in intricate detail what is expected of him at all times.

(d) It is less reliant on player talent and instinct. You still need some talent, because players still need to win their contests. But it’s a lot easier to win a contest when the system has led to your team having more numbers at the contest, and your team are able to coordinate better with each other to get the ball towards their goals.

(e) A champion team will usually beat a team of champions.

(10) Disadvantages? It requires players to have classroom smarts. That might explain why our draft decisions sometimes don’t make sense to us. There’s every chance that the reason we picked up Smit had as much to do with his ability to learn (bilingual, music studies) as his height.

A great explanation, albeit I think some things are oversimplified or generalised a bit. But it works as a description.

You see the evidence of this system with the boards displayed from the dug out.

They hold up the boxing gloves-Rocca - we go all out offensive system.
Up goes the 35 - Presti - we go the defensive system.
I’m sure they are drilled another set of systems when the Minutes boards go up as well.

The players have names for the roles, both individually and as a set pattern. Things like Truck, Train, the Pendles Press, The Alpha etc.
the are simple mnemonics that allow them to get a grip on a growing number of set roles and plays.

And I think we were ahead of the curve in this with our coaching team.

Shout out to Tony Shaw with his famed playbook.
I think he had the idea, but no one knew how to communicate it effectively back then.