NO TROLLS The umpiring crisis

[Wosh]

This is a good discussion so please keep it civilised and on topic, anyone who trolls or derails it will be removed.

 

[Toump Ass]

You're right. Once he's down he's incapable of standing up. How foolish of me.

You are being foolish with this example, because when an umpire calls a free kick for a dive, the player is almost always on their arse or otherwise not in possession of the ball. Thus, in almost all instances like this one, there would be plenty of time to check the replay to see if the player was actually pushed, or was just being Harry McKay and staging.

 

[boncer34]

You are being foolish with this example, because when an umpire calls a free kick for a dive, the player is almost always on their arse or otherwise not in possession of the ball. Thus, in almost all instances like this one, there would be plenty of time to check the replay to see if the player was actually pushed, or was just being Harry McKay and staging.

Yes because a player can't possibly stand up and get the ball quicker than a replay being shown.

Physically impossible.

 

[What is a cakewalk]

I agree and I made this point in my original post.

The rules should be objective. Asking umpires to adjudicate on a player's intention is madness IMO.

Although I do like the theatre of some of the rules, like when a player gets tacked with the ball and they land on the ground and wave all their limbs around like a salmon pulled out of a lake while holding onto the ball, to demonstrate an intention to get rid off it legally. I love that.

Agreed, and there needs to be some wriggle room for umpires to put the whistle away (for instance towards the end of a close game) or take control (for instance in a very scrappy affair that risks turning into a bit of a brawl). But there are just way too many run of the mill frees where there is no correct answer on whether it is a free or not.

 

[Tippett2Goal]

Agreed, and there needs to be some wriggle room for umpires to put the whistle away (for instance towards the end of a close game) or take control (for instance in a very scrappy affair that risks turning into a bit of a brawl). But there are just way too many run of the mill frees where there is no correct answer on whether it is a free or not.

Which is why fans are all about consistency, especially with so much grey area.
But think this is getting off topic (kind-of)


Reality is umpiring is not an attractive proposition for a variety of reasons (difficulty of rules, abuse, time commitment, poor pay, and more).

The question becomes at lower levels especially, does the AFL as an organisation have an obligation to help address these issues?
Or is it a problem that local clubs just need to sort out.

Ie if you find you can't get umpires in a particular league, is it just that leagues responsibility to a) pay more, b) punish abuse, c) run with a set of easier to administer rules, or should the AFL as an organisation that is meant to have a stake in the overall health of the game have some role to play?

 

[Gunf]

Agreed, and there needs to be some wriggle room for umpires to put the whistle away (for instance towards the end of a close game) or take control (for instance in a very scrappy affair that risks turning into a bit of a brawl). But there are just way too many run of the mill frees where there is no correct answer on whether it is a free or not.

This is one thing i disagree with.

The beginning middle and end of the game need to be umpired the same doesn't matter if it is a close game or a blowout.

Nothing worse than seeing interpretations changing in the same damn game.

 

[Toump Ass]

Yes because a player can't possibly stand up and get the ball quicker than a replay being shown.

A mark or free being paid from a marking contest in front of goals is almost always going to end up with a player lining up, or if the attacking team is playing on, they're going to have a shot at goal.

Resulting in a break in play with plenty of time for an umpire to check a replay, just as we do now with goals that may have been touched etc.

I can't believe this needs to be explained to you. Thank god you're not an umpire.

 

[Thetrader15]

Which is why fans are all about consistency, especially with so much grey area.
But think this is getting off topic (kind-of)


Reality is umpiring is not an attractive proposition for a variety of reasons (difficulty of rules, abuse, time commitment, poor pay, and more).

The question becomes at lower levels especially, does the AFL as an organisation have an obligation to help address these issues?
Or is it a problem that local clubs just need to sort out.

Ie if you find you can't get umpires in a particular league, is it just that leagues responsibility to a) pay more, b) punish abuse, c) run with a set of easier to administer rules, or should the AFL as an organisation that is meant to have a stake in the overall health of the game have some role to play?

You can solve a lot of b) by doing c).

The interpretation the umpires are asked to follow is not aligned with how fans want the game to run, hence the frustration with the people enforcing it.

• Ruck nomination only slows the game down.
• Allowing mauls to continue for up to 30 seconds before calling a ball up slows the play down, or produces more incorrect disposals which seem to be allowed when there is a maul.
• Contact below the knees is a rule which has been around based off 1 incident! There was already a rule for this - tripping.

If there are 2 opposite and correct adjudications for the one football act, there's something wrong with the rules.

 

[zill]

I used to umpire in what is now the EFNL back in the mid/late 90's. The pay rates posted a few pages back, though a different league, look similar to what was offered back in 1995, maybe even slightly less. On any given Saturday I could be in Coldstream, Clayton or Templestowe. Umpire abuse was shocking, and had very little to do with the umpiring. It was just something that happened no matter what. I once umpired a Doncaster vs Doncaster East match. Even before the game the older guys knew the crowd was going to kick off at some point. At half time the umpires sprinted off the ground. I was a goal umpire and furthest away from the rooms. Luckily someone from the club came and escorted me off, I was going to get smashed by someone otherwise, even though I was only 14. We spent the half time break with a couple of guys trying to kick in the door to the umpires room. We came back out after HT and the entire crowd was gone, only a dozen or so police cars there. The crowd brawl had nothing to do with the umpires, or even the game. It was some sort of criminal grudge thing. But the umpires stood out, and everyone hates them anyway so why not attack them. That was an extreme example, but I had rocks and clumps of dirt/mud thrown at me on more than a few occasions.

I did know someone who went on to the AFL, but they want to get you when you are young, so it ruled out probably 80% of umpires ever being considered for advancement, and of the ones who fit their age profile it ended up being people who loved the attention and weren't afraid to do some arse kissing who were advanced along the path to the AFL.

 

[Shane Heard]

As a committee member at a local club I would have no issue with our league putting up umpire fees. Heaps of clubs in our comp are paying ridiculous amounts to players so if they can afford that they can afford to pay $600 a game to two field umpires.

The poor payment amounts in my opinion also add to fueling the abuse as the lack of umpires means you do end up with some that are unprofessional, hold grudges etc. which the dickheads use to justify their abuse.

You’re spot on about the grudges thing. It happens a lot.

But even at $300 a game I reckon it still wouldn’t attract hordes of prospects to take up umpiring at local level.
It’s very difficult to do umpiring. Even at a C grade level like my local club, the senior games are flat out pace and you have to be right on it to catch every high tackle, hands in back, chopping arms etc

I see no easy solution to it other than a comprehensive AFL backed system of training people to be umpires and paying them good money with full support from some kind local administration or director overseeing the whole district.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Which is why fans are all about consistency, especially with so much grey area.
But think this is getting off topic (kind-of)


Reality is umpiring is not an attractive proposition for a variety of reasons (difficulty of rules, abuse, time commitment, poor pay, and more).

The question becomes at lower levels especially, does the AFL as an organisation have an obligation to help address these issues?
Or is it a problem that local clubs just need to sort out.

Ie if you find you can't get umpires in a particular league, is it just that leagues responsibility to a) pay more, b) punish abuse, c) run with a set of easier to administer rules, or should the AFL as an organisation that is meant to have a stake in the overall health of the game have some role to play?

It's the AFL Commission's responsibility. They appointed themselves as the ruling body for the sport as a whole and pushed all of these leagues to affiliate with them via their state subsidiaries, which the vast majority of leagues have done.

Happy for individual leagues to do what they can, but the numbers are at rock bottom everywhere - it's clearly a game-wide issue and the AFL have to fix it.

Not sure they've grasped how bad the issue is.

 

[Pbft]

I also think (at an AFL level) umpires are their own worst enemy by not being available to explain decisions after a match. It doesn't need to be immediate but if you can educate fans directly from the umpire and understand what they were thinking it may help the abuse as you further educate fans on the intricate rules they are trying to uphold.

This is why I enjoyed Foxtel back in the day with the umirpes feed as an alternative to the 'commentary'.

I wish they would reinstate this. Certainly helps better understand the thought process (be it correct or incorrect) of the umpire.

 

[What is a cakewalk]

Which is why fans are all about consistency, especially with so much grey area.
But think this is getting off topic (kind-of)


Reality is umpiring is not an attractive proposition for a variety of reasons (difficulty of rules, abuse, time commitment, poor pay, and more).

The question becomes at lower levels especially, does the AFL as an organisation have an obligation to help address these issues?
Or is it a problem that local clubs just need to sort out.

I think it's both-the afl absolutely needs to do more. Predominately via funding but also setting up coaching pathways for former umpires and generally making the afl umpires a much more professional unit.

This is only my opinion, but i think the afl umpiring fraternity should almost be treated as a 19th club. They should have a pro facility, a big coaching panel, the head coach should be exposed in the media, and a much bigger pay packet for all involved. This will flow through to lower leagues.

Local leagues for their part need to sort their shit out. When i was umpiring i found most clubs were pretty good at promoting respect, managing the guys who lose their cool, and generally welcoming umpires to post game drinks, food etc. Crowds could be better but part and parcel. The league on the other hand was a mess-its hard to demand professionalism from your umpires when pays usually arrive weeks late and often incorrect. I never had to go to the tribunal but most umpires dreaded it because they just felt dismissed or like they'd wasted their time (the tribunal may be partially on clubs idk). This is also partially on the afl because the league is largely volunteers, so it is hard for them.

 

[What is a cakewalk]

This is one thing i disagree with.

The beginning middle and end of the game need to be umpired the same doesn't matter if it is a close game or a blowout.

Nothing worse than seeing interpretations changing in the same damn game.

I largely agree and understand the frustration-the rules are the rules and they should be implemented and interpreted the same always.

But in practice umpires just like players need to adjust to conditions, especially at local level. In the afl there is probably less consideration to this.

 

[iameviljez]

I think if umpires erred on the side of not blowing the whistle, then we wouldn't have the issue. It's a tough gig and they need to be respected and most people are reasonable enough to concede that mistakes will be made. When you are paying 60+ free kicks in a game, frustrations will come out from both players and supporters.

I thought the Swans v North umpiring was terrible and whilst we were on the wrong end of the count, I didn't understand a lot of the frees we got either. Call out the obvious and be invisible for the rest.

Funny enough umpires used to pay a lot more free kicks.

 

[Gunf]

I largely agree and understand the frustration-the rules are the rules and they should be implemented and interpreted the same always.

But in practice umpires just like players need to adjust to conditions, especially at local level. In the afl there is probably less consideration to this.

No if you want them to put the whistle away do it for the whole game not the last 5 mins of a close game.

Something that is a free kick in the first 5 mins should still be a free kick with 45 seconds left in a 1 point game.

The feel of the game should never come into it or you are just giving umpires right of way to say "well it felt right at the time" and that should never come into a umps head.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

In the NBA they actually have an umpire available to the commentary team to explain various decisions.

Not the worst addition, though some of the NBA rules are very technical and require video replay to decide if they go one way or another.

They used to have Russo or one of the ex-umpires in the Ch7 commentary box a few years back.

It wasn't received well. However it may work these days, given there's a significant different culture around treatment of umpires developing.

 

[AstonSouffle]

The adjudication of AFL footy is simply appalling.

It's like the entire game has moved forward, except for the way it's umpired.

To be an AFL umpire, you pretty much have to be elite in the following skills:

• Leadership
• Verbal Communication
• Running
• On-Field positioning
• Football Decision Making
• Multi-tasking
• Ability to handle pressure
• Bouncing the ball
• Understanding of AFL footy
• Physical durability
• Ability to accept non-constructive criticism and vitriol

How many people out there in society are actually capable of all this, let alone could be f’ed being and umpire??

Not many.

So the abuse thing I'm sure is valid, but even if everyone loved umpires - the way the game is umpired still makes it incredibly hard to get people that are actually going to be decent at it.

They need to revamp the whole thing.

I mean fu**, do they need to do the toss? Do they need to give Brownlow votes?
Do they need to tell the goal umpire if it's a goal or not? If the goal umpire isn't sure, why does the field umpire have to get involved?

Do the same umpires that make decisions, have to bounce the ball??

Do they have to sprint up and down the ground all day? Is there a better way?

The notion of the field umpire 'controlling the game' and overseeing every single aspect of what happens on field, is so outdated it's not funny.

The whole game has moved on and changed, yet we still umpire it like it's a suburban game back in the 60's.

In any other workplace environment anywhere, this would be called micromanaging and you'd be forced to delegate.

This is why it is umpired so poorly. Not because the umpires are useless - but because it's simply too hard and too much for them.

Do they need to give Brownlow votes?

Personally, if I'm umpiring well and consumed in the game - how on earth do I have the time to see a player has played well? You pay the free, and get yourself into position for the next stage of play. So I'm going to be straight in up in saying, I'm not always 100% percent behind my votes and then there's the other part where umpires might actually disagree on who votes should even be going to. But... keep it with them, there's other ways to make it easier for them (the AFL umpires).

I mean fu**, do they need to do the toss?
The toss actually is rather seamless in the sense that it's your bolted on way to say 'the game is starting'.

Do they have to sprint up and down the ground all day? Is there a better way?
They really don't at AFL level, 3 umpires to triangulate the contest in between the arcs, 1 just of the contest for the next bomb kick and 1 in each 50 deep - 2 umpires to peel off the the middle to triangulate for the 50's (so 6 umpires all up). They do not need to be fit, they'll barely crack a strong jog - make it all entirely about focusing on being able to make a decision. Hand over to the umpire when it's their side of the contest to prevent control confusion so you don't get triple calls on something like HTB.

Do it right and all behind the ball hits will always been seen. However I suspect the public will not be happy with the amount of free kicks that will result.

No if you want them to put the whistle away do it for the whole game not the last 5 mins of a close game.

Something that is a free kick in the first 5 mins should still be a free kick with 45 seconds left in a 1 point game.

The feel of the game should never come into it or you are just giving umpires right of way to say "well it felt right at the time" and that should never come into a umps head.

You say this, and yet I once had my partner pay a HTB for dragging it in, in the goal square - free kick was paid final siren went and they won by a point.

That's a marginal call, it's open to interpretation - some people want that paid and some don't... but you don't pay something like that in the dying seconds - the game should be won by the better team not an umpires technical call.

 

[iameviljez]

No if you want them to put the whistle away do it for the whole game not the last 5 mins of a close game.

Something that is a free kick in the first 5 mins should still be a free kick with 45 seconds left in a 1 point game.

The feel of the game should never come into it or you are just giving umpires right of way to say "well it felt right at the time" and that should never come into a umps head.

In theory, I think we pretty much all agree with you - but in reality, gee you need balls of steel to pay the free kick in front of goal, 3 minutes to go in a close one.

 

[Gunf]

Do they need to give Brownlow votes?

Personally, if I'm umpiring well and consumed in the game - how on earth do I have the time to see a player has played well? You pay the free, and get yourself into position for the next stage of play. So I'm going to be straight in up in saying, I'm not always 100% percent behind my votes and then there's the other part where umpires might actually disagree on who votes should even be going to. But... keep it with them, there's other ways to make it easier for them (the AFL umpires).

I mean fu**, do they need to do the toss?
The toss actually is rather seamless in the sense that it's your bolted on way to say 'the game is starting'.

Do they have to sprint up and down the ground all day? Is there a better way?
They really don't at AFL level, 3 umpires to triangulate the contest in between the arcs, 1 just of the contest for the next bomb kick and 1 in each 50 deep - 2 umpires to peel off the the middle to triangulate for the 50's (so 6 umpires all up). They do not need to be fit, they'll barely crack a strong jog - make it all entirely about focusing on being able to make a decision. Hand over to the umpire when it's their side of the contest to prevent control confusion so you don't get triple calls on something like HTB.

Do it right and all behind the ball hits will always been seen. However I suspect the public will not be happy with the amount of free kicks that will result.

You say this, and yet I once had my partner pay a HTB for dragging it in, in the goal square - free kick was paid final siren went and they won by a point.

That's a marginal call, it's open to interpretation - some people want that paid and some don't... but you don't pay something like that in the dying seconds - the game should be won by the better team not an umpires technical call.

The better team doesn't give away the free kick and it should be paid if it is seen no matter who wins or loses

 

[iameviljez]

The better team doesn't give away the free kick and it should be paid if it is seen no matter who wins or loses

Nice in theory, but the other team - and their supporters - are not going to see it like that.

 

[iameviljez]

The rules should be objective. Asking umpires to adjudicate on a player's intention is madness IMO.

The rules have always had some element of grey in them.

To be honest, I think that deliberate OOB is one of the least contentious rules there is. That probably has something to do with the fact that most deliberate OOB free kicks, by definition, are outside the 50 and and from the boundary line.

 

[Gunf]

Nice in theory, but the other team - and their supporters - are not going to see it like that.

If everything is umpired the same way and it upsets some fans who cares as they will almost always be upset anyway at least we will have consistency which is by far the thing that needs to happen the most.

It is why we as fans always get annoyed because it isn't consistent.

 

[iameviljez]

It is why we as fans always get annoyed because it isn't consistent.

I disagree. We say we want consistency, but our rose coloured glasses define what we see as "consistent" an awful lot.

 

[yodellinhank]

352 umpires in the VAFA. Doubt even the EFL has that many.

How many of those are guys registered by clubs who are "just in case" that would be lucky to do a few games a season?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

In the NBA they actually have an umpire available to the commentary team to explain various decisions.

Not the worst addition, though some of the NBA rules are very technical and require video replay to decide if they go one way or another.

Same thing in the NFL (edit actually not sure if it's an actual umpire but someone who can explain the rules)