VFL VFL 2024 - Geelong & the greater league

[CatToTheFuture]

How is anybody going to know if they don't play Mr 36 disposals +10 clearances, I think now after 4 loses it's time to break the friggin glass!

It's never as bad as it seems

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I knew this past weekend was the 3rd time from his 8 matches this season where he broke the 30 disposal mark, but I didn't realise it's not a "barrier" he broke last season - you read some comments regarding Hardie (more so on social media than here), and you'd think he's been averaging 35+ disposals since he arrived last year, and was the magical solution that all but the coaches know


Accumulating disposals in the VFL doesn't necessarily equate to doing so at senior level - just need to look at Jack Macrae this year who had 46 disposals in Rd1 of the VFL, was recalled to the senior team but in his 8 full senior games (ignoring his game against us when he was sub), and he's only had 25+ disposals twice

If we ignore the impacted 2020 season, Macrae has averaged 30+ disposals in 4 of the 5 seasons between 2018 & 2023, but isn't having that same amount of the ball in the last 18 months - it's only been 5 times since the start of 2023 that he's actually had 30+ disposals

With a full season in the VFL, he may well average 35->40 disposals, but maybe he's not that player at senior level now who is going to be a high disposal option



With VFL I think we need to be careful when focusing purely on numbers like disposal counts, as you're not necessarily going to get that same time & space at senior level to accumulate those numbers, or for a forward they may not get the quality of delivery at VFL level that's on offer at senior level, so their goal tally could be lower than you'd want to see, etc

I think it's why you look for those 1 or 2 other little things that just grabs your attention and that you want to see how it translates at senior level


It's likely Hardie does get a game at some stage, but there's others who just seem to have that little something where you want to see where their development leads to

Yeah absolutely, you're looking more at what they're doing, like looking at Humphries kicking off half back and thinking that it would give opposition a headache trying to cover his angles, or looking at Dempsey's attacking instincts on show and the flashes of brilliance he can bring if he puts it together.

 

[Finknottle]

I take your point on everything you've said above.... As a reference point for my opinion, and I am not a massive atkins fan (love his effort, happy he gets a game, but also think he is limited.....) Atkins is a better player than Hardie and was a better player than Hardie at VFL level before he was drafted, even if his stats don't match Hardies (I don't know if they do or not but I don't want the counter argument to be "Atkins never had 36 touches and 14 score involvements in a VFL game how can you say he was better!")

You say Atkins is a better player than Hardie and was a better player at VFL but you give no evidence. Do you mean, in your gut you feel Atkins is and was a better player?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

There are some here who have seemingly put a line through Hardie as not being up to AFL, despite never having had a crack at it, and that's fine. It's an opinions game we play.

We've taken the leap and rewarded reserves form before. Matthew Egan was once a Cats VFL player before we gave him a chance, and injury curtailed a promising career. Others to come via the state league route were Shane Mumford, Jackson Sheringham, Jonathon Simpkin, Sam Menegola, Tom Ruggles, Tom Stewart, Ryan Abbott, Darcy Fort, Tom Atkins, Brad Close and Tyson Stengle.

A few misses, a few serviceable players and some gun players as well. Licorice allsorts.

At the point where we drafted him many would have said Tom Atkins has no standout AFL attributes, and we've got 100+ games and a premiership out of him.

Would gladly take Atkins level output from Hardie and run!

Didn't Tom Atkins break the vfl tackle record in a game before we gave him a go? Fair to say he had defensive work as a translatable attribute.

Fair to give Hardie a crack for sure though.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Didn't Tom Atkins break the vfl tackle record in a game before we gave him a go? Fair to say he had defensive work as a translatable attribute.

Fair to give Hardie a crack for sure though.

I am probably different to others in that I don't view tackling as an AFL attribute but rather a football staple like kicking and handballing and spoiling. Minimum requirement skills to play the sport at any level (unless you're a big bloke too slow to tackle). It's listed as Parfitt's prime attribute and forms the crux of my criticism, that he has no other attributes.

Atkins has been a defensive minded mid, and has fallen away this year, similarly to Brandon has no other standout traits.
But I am digressing. We need to get a look at Hardie at the level IMO.

 

[Interdimensional Bigfoot]

You can see Clark has elite hands and vision in traffic. You can see that will work at afl level you just need to give him games. There's a different standard because there's a different return on investment which is entirely fair.

I think Clark may need to be rested soon and I think we have to test Hardie. But I'm pretty sure we know what we get from Hardie at senior level.

I think Clark has great long term potential but as of right now, we're not getting our hands on the ball in the middle and we need to, Clarks hands might be elite but if your only touching it 10 times it's, you're simply not making much of an impact, Hardie has shown he can win clearance, will it transition? Won't know if we don't try.

 

[dangerwood]

You say Atkins is a better player than Hardie and was a better player at VFL but you give no evidence. Do you mean, in your gut you feel Atkins is and was a better player?

But what evidence do you want? I said (and it's quoted for reference) as a reference for my opinion, Atkins is better than Hardie and was at VFL level. It's my opinion and I'm not shying from the fact it's my opinion but I think Atkins is a good reference point. He was used as an example of a VFL player being given a go, similar to Hardie, and I'm saying at VFL level my opinion is Atkins was better. I'm just sharing my opinion. I never wanted to form some hard stance or hill to die on but people seem agitated by the fact people have voiced that in their opinion Hardie isn't too exciting and reference stats to counter. I don't have any stats for you, my opinion is in contrast to the stats. If you want to find the vision of Atkins at VFL level and sit down with me, we can go through it and compare with Hardie as to why I have formed my opinion.

 

[cats_09]

You're being very diplomatic. I thought your "he guards grass well" was pretty good. I think those who are watching the VFL and are being projected into the "anti Hardie camp" are all being pretty reasonable. Happy for him to get a go but just aren't expecting much etc. but the aggravation coming the other makes me want to go harder.

On FB the other night I had someone quoting incorrect Hardie stats at me, while telling be to stick with the AFLW

It started with being told Hardie had 36 disposals & kicked 2 goals - when I explained it was only 1 goal, I was told again to stick with the AFLW as Hardie still had 36 disposals and has had 30+ disposals the past 4 weeks

When I politely explained he actually had 37 disposals (not sure why he was docking Hardie a disposal), but that it was the first time in his last 4 matches of having 30+ and I listed his previous efforts - I was then met with, "go back to the kitchen"

Seriously, it's not that hard to open the VFL app



The last time I remember this much debate around a player, it was Charlie Constable and that lasted years:

• Sam Simpson won our VFL B&F in 2019, and I remember on socials that some claimed the coaches had no idea as Constable was clearly the standout player, and that the voting system was wrong for him to not win. Constable actually played 7 senior matches in 2019 which likely counted against him in terms of polling opportunities and he didn't finish in the top 10
• Over his last couple of seasons at the club, every week he wasn't selected we were told how the club would regret it when he moved to a new home that would appreciate him

I don't know, but maybe the coaches have a pretty good idea about the players, cause it's not all that often we are made to look silly by delisting a player who goes on to excel at another club

 

[dangerwood]

True but we're also playing Clark who hasn't even done what Hardie has, yet we can find games for him. Hardie has been our most consistent mid, we have room for guys consistently getting sub 20 but somehow can't find a place for Hardie? I don't want to sound like I'm hating on our kids, but I believe you play the guys who earn it and he has, drop the weakest mid and play Hardie, if he's not good enough he'll find himself back in the VFL team before to long. We have one set of standards for some and another set for others.

I respect your opinion but philosophically disagree with an approach of playing the players who best perform at VFL level without considering and projecting the ability of players ability to perform at AFL. There's an argument to made of rewarding effort, and on the basis of supporting a good team culture I would offer Hardie a game, but I don't support a decision making process based on order of merit on VFL performance. In my opinion under this thinking, you will end up with a very good VFL team. Many AFL players never dominated at VFL like Hardie has. If Brad Close played VFL, I'm not confident he would be in the best players every week.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I take your point on everything you've said above.... As a reference point for my opinion, and I am not a massive atkins fan (love his effort, happy he gets a game, but also think he is limited.....) Atkins is a better player than Hardie and was a better player than Hardie at VFL level before he was drafted, even if his stats don't match Hardies (I don't know if they do or not but I don't want the counter argument to be "Atkins never had 36 touches and 14 score involvements in a VFL game how can you say he was better!")

Hardie is getting more disposals than Atkins got 2018 but Atkins was brought in purely to be a tackling pressure forward role player in 2019 after averaging nearly 10 tackles a game in 2018. His tackling pressure has been a through one for all his roles from half back to midfield after that. Took 3 years of roles that started really narrow and expanded while he developed.

Like Bews, his leg speed got him in to chase small forwards and he developed his game from there. Took him ages to add the sidestep and stop kicking OOF.

If you are bringing in a role player you give them a narrow role they can do. If you take a guy who is above average in the vfl, then you want to put him in the seniors, you need to make sure they have a role which is easier than "go get more disposals than Dangerfield has averaged since 2016"

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I am probably different to others in that I don't view tackling as an AFL attribute but rather a football staple like kicking and handballing and spoiling. Minimum requirement skills to play the sport at any level (unless you're a big bloke too slow to tackle). It's listed as Parfitt's prime attribute and forms the crux of my criticism, that he has no other attributes.

Atkins has been a defensive minded mid, and has fallen away this year, similarly to Brandon has no other standout traits.
But I am digressing. We need to get a look at Hardie at the level IMO.

Yeah agree we need to give him a look.

I'm kind of using tackles as a metric for defensive running which is maybe a little dicey. For a minimum afl trait there's enough variation in players defensive work that I think it's worth considering but a bit of a digression

 

[cats_09]

You say Atkins is a better player than Hardie and was a better player at VFL but you give no evidence. Do you mean, in your gut you feel Atkins is and was a better player?

Atkins VFL resume prior to being drafted

2016: kicked 15 goals, averaged 8 tackles, 18 disposals, 4 clearances. Earned his first placement in the VFL team of the year, and won his first Geelong VFL B&F
2017: co-captain of Geelong's VFL team, but was an injury interrupted year. In round 18 versus Collingwood he laid 23 tackles including 12 in the last - this was the equal most in the VFL & 2nd equal most in any comp
2018: sole captain of Geelong's VFL team, averaged 21.8 disposals & 9.4 tackles. Earned his second placement in the VFL team of the year, this time in the ruck rover position & was named captain of the team. He also won his second Geelong B&F

We picked him up in the 2018 rookie draft as a 23yr old

 

[CatToTheFuture]

On FB the other night I had someone quoting incorrect Hardie stats at me, while telling be to stick with the AFLW

It started with being told Hardie had 36 disposals & kicked 2 goals - when I explained it was only 1 goal, I was told again to stick with the AFLW as Hardie still had 36 disposals and has had 30+ disposals the past 4 weeks

When I politely explained he actually had 37 disposals (not sure why he was docking Hardie a disposal), but that it was the first time in his last 4 matches of having 30+ and I listed his previous efforts - I was then met with, "go back to the kitchen"

Seriously, it's not that hard to open the VFL app



The last time I remember this much debate around a player, it was Charlie Constable and that lasted years:

• Sam Simpson won our VFL B&F in 2019, and I remember on socials that some claimed the coaches had no idea as Constable was clearly the standout player, and that the voting system was wrong for him to not win. Constable actually played 7 senior matches in 2019 which likely counted against him in terms of polling opportunities and he didn't finish in the top 10
• Over his last couple of seasons at the club, every week he wasn't selected we were told how the club would regret it when he moved to a new home that would appreciate him

I don't know, but maybe the coaches have a pretty good idea about the players, cause it's not all that often we are made to look silly by delisting a player who goes on to excel at another club

****ing christ that's skin crawling

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I think Clark has great long term potential but as of right now, we're not getting our hands on the ball in the middle and we need to, Clarks hands might be elite but if your only touching it 10 times it's, you're simply not making much of an impact, Hardie has shown he can win clearance, will it transition? Won't know if we don't try.

Yeah fair to give Hardie a game but I just don't think you'll get more out of him than we're getting from Clark.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Jesus f***ing christ that's skin crawling

I imagine Reddit would be even worse. Some genuine incel types on there.

BigFooty has its flaws, but we tend to steer clear of any sexism, racism etc...and when it does occur, it's promptly deleted.

Credit to the mods for keeping this place footy related 99% of the time.

Wish the Richmond board could do similar!!

 

[Kobe Gryant]

All I have to add on Hardie is that he looks like Mitch Duncan & Daniel Gorringe

Daniel Gorringe

Age

32

Ht

200cm

Wt

97kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.6

3star

K

4.7

2star

HB

5.9

4star

M

2.3

2star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

8.2

2star

K

3.8

2star

HB

4.4

4star

M

1.6

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

0.4

3star

had a baby.

 

[Warhorse]

On FB the other night I had someone quoting incorrect Hardie stats at me, while telling be to stick with the AFLW

It started with being told Hardie had 36 disposals & kicked 2 goals - when I explained it was only 1 goal, I was told again to stick with the AFLW as Hardie still had 36 disposals and has had 30+ disposals the past 4 weeks

When I politely explained he actually had 37 disposals (not sure why he was docking Hardie a disposal), but that it was the first time in his last 4 matches of having 30+ and I listed his previous efforts - I was then met with, "go back to the kitchen"

Seriously, it's not that hard to open the VFL app

This sounds like a made up story

 

[dangerwood]

Hardie is getting more disposals than Atkins got 2018 but Atkins was brought in purely to be a tackling pressure forward role player in 2019 after averaging nearly 10 tackles a game in 2018. His tackling pressure has been a through one for all his roles from half back to midfield after that. Took 3 years of roles that started really narrow and expanded while he developed.

Like Bews, his leg speed got him in to chase small forwards and he developed his game from there. Took him ages to add the sidestep and stop kicking OOF.

If you are bringing in a role player you give them a narrow role they can do. If you take a guy who is above average in the vfl, then you want to put him in the seniors, you need to make sure they have a role which is easier than "go get more disposals than Dangerfield has averaged since 2016"

I agree with some of your points but in my opinion, at VFL level, Atkins was more than just a "tackler", I can't think of a comparison player....but Atkins (at VFL) broke tackles like...Harley Reid (I'm being facetious and it wasn't a stiff arm, Atkins did some blind turn 360s out of traffic). Atkins played some games at VFL where you thought "this bloke is too good for this level" he's just burst out of the centre three times in a row, they couldn't touch him. Did he then have 36 touches? I can't remember but he was actually damaging. I was never sure if he'd be good enough at AFL but he was a step above VFL based on what he could do in certain circumstances. It's very hard to articulate in written form but Hardie never does anything in a play/possession where you would say, he was above the level based on what he did vs the players around him in that circumstance. Cumulatively he probably ends up the best player, but in each circumstance, he doesn't do anything that projects him above those around him. It's a good trait to find easy ball, I wish some of our players could do more of it, but in my opinion, you watch players when they are involved to see how they perform and then out perform those around. You see say a Humphries break through traffic and hit a target, and project "well that was something" he was above everyone around him then, if he can do that AFL he might be damaging. Hardie doesn't do that, he just progressively accumulates and if someone said said "How'd Hardie play?" You'd say yeah he good. In any specific play he doesn't do anything to show he is better than the players around him, but he must read the play well and be smart to find it. At his size, and as a midfielder, I don't think just reading and anticipating how to rack up the ball will help us that much and I'm not sure it will transfer to AFL. Give him a go, see if it does.
I think it's probably also worth noting that his form correlates with our improved VFL team, he wasn't finding the ball as easily in a poorer team last year. In our limited midfield where he would need to impose himself on the game to find his own ball rather, I'm anticipating his VFL form won't translate to AFL level.
(Caveat to above, I'm not even an Atkins fan but he was a bloody good VFL player).

 

[BORIS332]

I’ve just read through the last few pages of this thread. The pro-Hardie and anti-Hardie camps are both arguing the same point. Give him a run in the ones and see how he goes.

Now that we all agree, let’s move on?

 

[Finknottle]

Atkins VFL resume prior to being drafted

2016: kicked 15 goals, averaged 8 tackles, 18 disposals, 4 clearances. Earned his first placement in the VFL team of the year, and won his first Geelong VFL B&F
2017: co-captain of Geelong's VFL team, but was an injury interrupted year. In round 18 versus Collingwood he laid 23 tackles including 12 in the last - this was the equal most in the VFL & 2nd equal most in any comp
2018: sole captain of Geelong's VFL team, averaged 21.8 disposals & 9.4 tackles. Earned his second placement in the VFL team of the year, this time in the ruck rover position & was named captain of the team. He also won his second Geelong B&F

We picked him up in the 2018 rookie draft as a 23yr old

This is evidence based which I like. You can now compare Atkins VFL career with Hardie's brief VFL career and give an informed opinion. I am across Hardie's games this year including his numbers and can see he compares favourably with Atkins. Like Atkins Hardie will be a shoe in for the Geelong VFL b&f and is currently leading the VFL MVP voting. Atkins tackle numbers were impressive and well ahead of Hardie but Hardie has him covered in other areas, disposals and clearances. Not that Atkins is a particularly good yardstick this year, I think he is struggling to have an impact.

 

[dangerwood]

I’ve just read through the last few pages of this thread. The pro-Hardie and anti-Hardie camps are both arguing the same point. Give him a run in the ones and see how he goes.

Now that we all agree, let’s move on?

Well most of the arguing was actually about what the "anti camp" actually did or didn't say rather than whether he deserved a game or not.

 

[Warhorse]

I’ve just read through the last few pages of this thread. The pro-Hardie and anti-Hardie camps are both arguing the same point. Give him a run in the ones and see how he goes.

Now that we all agree, let’s move on?

Agree. At best we find an AFL player at worst we put pressure on our current under performing midfield

 

[dangerwood]

This is evidence based which I like. You can now compare Atkins VFL career with Hardie's brief VFL career and give an informed opinion. I am across Hardie's games this year including his numbers and can see he compares favourably with Atkins. Like Atkins Hardie will be a shoe in for the Geelong VFL b&f and is currently leading the VFL MVP voting. Atkins tackle numbers were impressive and well ahead of Hardie but Hardie has him well covered in other areas, disposals and clearances.

So you wanted stats? I think this might be the basis for a lot of the consternation in this thread. Some people are forming an opinion on stats "Hardie has 36, how can you question his ability" and others are forming an opinion that isn't based on stats.

 

[goyoucatters]

I don't know, but maybe the coaches have a pretty good idea about the players, cause it's not all that often we are made to look silly by delisting a player who goes on to excel at another club

Andrew Carrazzo is the only really big miss (on games played, at least) for us here. Delisted without making a senior appearance at Geelong, and went on to play 194 games at the Blues. Won their B&F in 2007 as well.

 

[dangerwood]

Andrew Carrazzo is the only really big miss (on games played, at least) for us here. Delisted without making a senior appearance at Geelong, and went on to play 194 games at the Blues. Won their B&F in 2007 as well.

Good example. Debatebale if he was a miss. Dominated at Oakleigh, dominated at VFL, would have he ever played above anyone in our midfield during that era? He would definitely be in our team now. Ultimately an AFL standard player but you wouldn't curse yourself too much for missing him.