Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[greatwhiteshark]

WTF are you on about?

As has been pointed out, the then vfl wasn't going broke coz it was unviable, it was going broke because of an unfettered spend spree in order to win flags between clubs

That does not mean those clubs would've just died off into the sunset.

Well it kinda does mate, they were ignoring and openly saying our spending is out of control. If they had of continued without expending what do you think the outcome would of been? A couple of flags and fitzroy outcome was where it was heading.
Hence we must expand otherwise we are doomed as its clear we will not try and stop spending.
Not many clubs back then had a John Elliott who was willing to spend at all costs.
The VFL had to expend to continue as they were, or they had to tighten their reigns massively and they had shown no willingness to do so.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Well it kinda does mate, they were ignoring and openly saying our spending is out of control. If they had of continued without expending what do you think the outcome would of been?

Well it's speculation isn't it, regardless of the outcomes, the clubs still had huge public interest, unlikely they just die off suddenly to never be seen again.

And to be honest, this argument doesn't justify the wish of detriment to foundation clubs now from nv fans in the name of fairness or just vengeance.

That's why things haven't changed much and probably won't.

 

[JackOutback]

So.... There is issues with west coast and Fremantle Dockers having 10 home games according to you.

Yet.... It's Collingwoods right to have 15 games at the MCG each year? LoL

Now, now, it's 14 games at the G. Plus three games at Marvel. Plus, potentially three finals at the G. And the grand final at the G.

Just gently correcting you before someone accuses you of being unfair with your use of stats.

 

[doppleganger]

Now, now, it's 14 games at the G. Plus three games at Marvel. Plus, potentially three finals at the G. And the grand final at the G.

Port get 13 games at Adelaide Oval, plus 3 games at the G. Plus potentially 2 finals at AO and the GF at the G.

Only difference being that Port's games they have a distinct home ground advantage in 11 games compared to what 5 for Collingwood.

Let's see if Port get another cushy ride to Top4 because of their advantageous H&A fixture, and then lose more home finals in 2024.

 

[JackOutback]

Port get 13 games at Adelaide Oval, plus 3 games at the G. Plus potentially 2 finals at AO and the GF at the G.

Only difference being that Port's games they have a distinct home ground advantage in 11 games compared to what 5 for Collingwood.

Let's see if Port get another cushy ride to Top4 because of their advantageous H&A fixture, and then lose more home finals in 2024.

You've tried to frame it in the most advantageous way possible and it still looks poor for Port. Collingwood still have substantially more games in Melbourne than Port have in Adelaide (potentially 20 to potentially 15), Port get distinct away disadvantages against all but Adelaide while Collingwood don't in a number of matches, they get to play at the G only three times before the most important game of the year is played there, potentially against a home tenant. There's no way in which you can make this look better for Port than the Pies.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Well it's speculation isn't it, regardless of the outcomes, the clubs still had huge public interest, unlikely they just die off suddenly to never be seen again.

And to be honest, this argument doesn't justify the wish of detriment to foundation clubs now from nv fans in the name of fairness or just vengeance.

That's why things haven't changed much and probably won't.

Agree with all that but expansion happened to keep the status quo for Vic footy. That was the only reason.

 

[doppleganger]

My understanding is the Docklands co home ground deal has been really good financially for the Dons and they play the G often enough that they're not at a disadvantage there. And an advantage for lots of finals.

Sure they got the best commercial deal.

But they have the overwhelming majority of their games where they actually experience a minor ground familiarity disadvantage. They play the Marvel tenants at Marvel, and the G tenants at the G. And mix the non-vic teams between both grounds.

From an on-field ground advantage perspective that is a horrible scenario.

And from a pyshcologicla perspective, where is their home? What turf are the players defending? Do Essendon fans think Marvel is home or the G? Tigers have Punt Rd end, Pies Olympic stand, Dees the members wing...

Essendon have??

 

[Carringbush2010]

Agree with all that but expansion happened to keep the status quo for Vic footy. That was the only reason.

No it wasn't the only reason, another reason was to bail out the vlf from financial dire straits.

Of course the status quo was to stay the status quo, as it should, why? Because it pandered to the largest public footy market and still does today.

There's two ways to stop the status quo

1 Change the mindset of HQ to not hold $ as the priority factor < not gonna happen.

2 The other footy markets become bigger than the vic market < unlikely, certainly not in our lifetimes.

 

[doppleganger]

You've tried to frame it in the most advantageous way possible and it still looks poor for Port. Collingwood still have substantially more games in Melbourne than Port have in Adelaide (potentially 20 to potentially 15)

That is because all you WA fans ever do is solely focus ALL advantage on whether you hopped on a plane or not.

That is just one minor component of the home ground advantage and away ground disadvantage.

Of course Collingwood have more games in Melbourne than Port do, we are a Melbourne based team and the majority of clubs are from Melbourne.

If you actually review games and determine whether you have a distinct advantage against your opponent, are neutral, or have a distinct disadvantage against your opponent, and equate over the year Port come out ahead.

 

[dmac_55]

Port get 13 games at Adelaide Oval, plus 3 games at the G. Plus potentially 2 finals at AO and the GF at the G.

Only difference being that Port's games they have a distinct home ground advantage in 11 games compared to what 5 for Collingwood.

Let's see if Port get another cushy ride to Top4 because of their advantageous H&A fixture, and then lose more home finals in 2024.

Adding gather round and playing a rivalry match between co tenants at the same oval every year. Comparing the best case scenario an interstate side has with Collingwood.

Port and Crows the last 2 years have done very well inventing an extra home game into the fixture.

Brisbane supporters would happily sign up for 12/23 at the Gabba and 1/23 on the Gold Coast.

10 games on the road.
Need 3 played at the G every year for experience.
3 between WA/SA each year
4 between NSW and the shitty other ovals in Victoria and Tassie.

Done!

 

[JackOutback]

That is because all you WA fans ever do is solely focus ALL advantage on whether you hopped on a plane or not.

That is just one minor component of the home ground advantage and away ground disadvantage.

Of course Collingwood have more games in Melbourne than Port do, we are a Melbourne based team and the majority of clubs are from Melbourne.

If you actually review games and determine whether you have a distinct advantage against your opponent, are neutral, or have a distinct disadvantage against your opponent, and equate over the year Port come out ahead.

I wonder why you snipped my quote.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I wonder why you snipped my quote.

This is why you will never be taken seriously.

For a start gifs are just childish.

Anything anyone says to you is dismissed all you see is the Vics advantages, when you are shown non-Vic advantages you dismiss them
And look at this, a F&^%$#& childish gif, AGAIN>

And for someone who likes to tell people how many times they have posted in this thread, you sure seem to post a lot.

Keep going mate, no-one actually cares any more what you think.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

AFL House wants to win over the Northern States.

Swans looking like good things to play in their 7th GF and win their 3rd flag of the 21st century.

Is anybody surprised?

Yet the WA wowsers blather on complaining that - StK, Melb, WB, Ess, Carl, NM - are advantaged!

You only need to look at the same thing with the NRL with the melbourne storm... Do yoy think it's “culture” as to why the Melbourne Storm is so successful?? Or is it league manipulated concessions and advantages designed to keep them competitive to drive market in growth states??

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You've tried to frame it in the most advantageous way possible and it still looks poor for Port. Collingwood still have substantially more games in Melbourne than Port have in Adelaide (potentially 20 to potentially 15), Port get distinct away disadvantages against all but Adelaide while Collingwood don't in a number of matches, they get to play at the G only three times before the most important game of the year is played there, potentially against a home tenant. There's no way in which you can make this look better for Port than the Pies.

The advantage is easily with an interatate side.

In this example below, who do you think comes out on top??

Collingwood play 14 games at the MCG.
Lets assume 7 of those are against other melbourne teams and 7 against Interstate sides. That is only an advantage in 7 matches.

Port adelaide play lets say 11 home games and 11 away games.. Of those 11 home games, each is a clear cut advantage.

That is a 4 game advantage to capitalise on.

All port needs from that point onwards is 3 mediocre melbourne based sides away and they almost lock in a top 4 spot.

 

[LoungeLizard]

The advantage is easily with an interatate side.

In this example below, who do you think comes out on top??

Collingwood play 14 games at the MCG.
Lets assume 7 of those are against other melbourne teams and 7 against Interstate sides. That is only an advantage in 7 matches.

Port adelaide play lets say 11 home games and 11 away games.. Of those 11 home games, each is a clear cut advantage.

That is a 4 game advantage to capitalise on.

All port needs from that point onwards is 3 mediocre melbourne based sides away and they almost lock in a top 4 spot.

But, but Collingwood play in Melbourne more.

 

[doppleganger]

I wonder why you snipped my quote.

As the rest added nothing of relevance, the usual waffle where travel is the only disadvantage and complaining about how many games a team plays in Melbourne.

If you actually review games you can group into three main categories.

1. Games where you have a distinct advantage against your opponent - the traditional game at your home ground against a team who isn't familiar with the ground.

2. Games that are neutral, both teams are 'at home' or both are 'away' at unfamiliar grounds

3. Games where you have a distinct disadvantage compared to your opponent, you are playing away at an unfamiliar ground that is your opponents home ground.

Port's FIXture always has them with more games where they have an advantage.

In 2024 they get the following breakdown

11 with a distinct home ground advantage
3 neutral games
9 with a distinct away ground disadvantage

Collingwood have a glut of neutral games, we only get 4 home MCG games against non-vic teams, and travel to 5 non-vic opponents to play them on their home deck. But I also give us ground advantage v StK and Geel at the G, and disadvantage v NM and WB at Marvel.

So Pies breakdown re actual ground advantage is below

6 with a distinct home ground advantage
10 neutral games
7 with a distinct away ground disadvantage

So the question is, does extra travel offset having more games where you are advantage during the season?

H&A ladder and actual results indicate that teams who enjoy ground advantage during H&A do better regardless of travelling a bit further.

 

[JackOutback]

The advantage is easily with an interatate side.

In this example below, who do you think comes out on top??

Collingwood play 14 games at the MCG.
Lets assume 7 of those are against other melbourne teams and 7 against Interstate sides. That is only an advantage in 7 matches.

Port adelaide play lets say 11 home games and 11 away games.. Of those 11 home games, each is a clear cut advantage.

That is a 4 game advantage to capitalise on.

All port needs from that point onwards is 3 mediocre melbourne based sides away and they almost lock in a top 4 spot.

But you’re ignoring Port’s distinct disadvantage in all of their away games. Whereas Collingwood is getting three ‘away’ games at the G where they don’t have a real disadvantage. And let’s not forget three ‘away’ games at Marvel, which also become more winnable without a distinct disadvantage. You say Port only need to beat three mediocre Vic teams to make top four but Collingwood only need to beat a couple of mediocre Vic teams home and ‘away’ and they are also there.

 

[doppleganger]

But you’re ignoring Port’s distinct disadvantage in all of their away games. Whereas Collingwood is getting three ‘away’ games at the G where they don’t have a real disadvantage. And let’s not forget three ‘away’ games at Marvel, which also become more winnable without a distinct disadvantage. You say Port only need to beat three mediocre Vic teams to make top four but Collingwood only need to beat a couple of mediocre Vic teams home and ‘away’ and they are also there.

Nobody ignores it.

Port's 2024 FIXture, they get the following breakdown

11 with a distinct home ground advantage
3 neutral games
9 with a distinct away ground disadvantage

Home ground advantage is real, the H&A season and ladder is biased towards teams that enjoy a significant home ground advantage.

 

[bzparkes]

ALL clubs should be entitled to host ALL their home games at their preferred HOME ground.

WC and Freo both enjoy having ALL their home games at their preferred home ground.

Collingwood (like all the Melbourne clubs) dont get this, because of AFL House policy.

WA based fans are that entitled that getting their home games at their home ground is not enough, they actually think they should be able to dictate where their AWAY games are scheduled at!

So, do you complain when you get Geelong's home ground played at Collingwood's home ground, including finals they should deservedly get to play at home?

 

[daniel_4tw]

The fact that VIC fans try to argue playing at their home ground 17 times a year is not advantage because they sometimes play other Melbourne clubs proves how good they have it.

When Crows and Port play against each other - I never know who’s ’home’ game it is. I see it as an extra week at home. It’s a game you don’t have to travel. Players sleep in their own bed.

Just because there’s some additional opposition fans in the stands, doesn’t mean you’re away.

If the biggest draw back is ‘well our opponent didn’t have to travel, either’ then yes, there is huge bias.

 

[Underarm]

The fact that VIC fans try to argue playing at their home ground 17 times a year is not advantage because they sometimes play other Melbourne clubs proves how good they have it.

When Crows and Port play against each other - I never know who’s ’home’ game it is. I see it as an extra week at home. It’s a game you don’t have to travel. Players sleep in their own bed.

Just because there’s some additional opposition fans in the stands, doesn’t mean you’re away.

If the biggest draw back is ‘well our opponent didn’t have to travel, either’ then yes, there is huge bias.

What makes up a home ground advantage?

If your opponent on the day also gets that advantage, do you actually have an advantage?

 

[Underarm]

The fact that VIC fans try to argue playing at their home ground 17 times a year is not advantage because they sometimes play other Melbourne clubs proves how good they have it.

No team plays 17 games at their home ground. The most is Collingwood with 14, only 1 more than Adelaide.

 

[sr36]

The fact that VIC fans try to argue playing at their home ground 17 times a year is not advantage because they sometimes play other Melbourne clubs proves how good they have it.

When Crows and Port play against each other - I never know who’s ’home’ game it is. I see it as an extra week at home. It’s a game you don’t have to travel. Players sleep in their own bed.

Just because there’s some additional opposition fans in the stands, doesn’t mean you’re away.

If the biggest draw back is ‘well our opponent didn’t have to travel, either’ then yes, there is huge bias.

There's two different concepts.

Having a home ground advantage in games - When Crows and Port play each other there is none. When Crows play other teams at Adelaide Oval there is an advantage. Gather round means that the Adelaide clubs do have an overall advantage regarding this - and the teams that play the Adelaide teams in Gather Round are probably the worst off.

Advantage of travelling less. Most Vic clubs have this advantage.

You can't really measure the size of either advantage. So overall in terms of the fixture, who the **** knows whether Vic Teams or Adelaide teams are better off with their respective advantages.

The only thing that seems certain is that the Adelaide teams are top 8 in terms of advantages from the fixture - They might be top 2 or they might be down the bottom of the 8.

But the AFL thirds fixturing which handicaps higher finishing teams means that if you are advantaged and finished higher because of inequality in the fixture, the following year you'll be disadvantaged by getting tougher opponents.

 

[doppleganger]

So, do you complain when you get Geelong's home ground played at Collingwood's home ground, including finals they should deservedly get to play at home?

I include that as a advantage game to Collingwood, in the same way that our home game against a Marvel tenant is a disadvantage game.

Although some may argue that if you are playing 5-6 games at the G that you are familiar with the ground and it is more of a neutral game.

And yes,it is only VIC clubs who dont get "earnt" home finals in weeks 1-3....some advantage.

 

[daniel_4tw]

Just can’t agree. Having to jump on a flight and stay in a hotel every second week is such a huge disadvantage it doesn’t come close.

To me, an away showdown is as good as a home game. Who cares that the other team is familiar with the ground? I’d play Port 6 times a year if it means not leaving SA.

But when you get something every year, you obviously take it for granted.

Gather Round is 1 round of advantage, only compared to a season of it that VIC clubs get. WA, QLD and NSW fans can grumble about it but not Victorian clubs.

And then theres all the big Vic clubs that get to avoid the shithole stadiums in Ballarat, Tasmania, NT etc which the small Melbourne clubs make interstate clubs travel to, further reducing their clubs the chance to play at the MCG, where the GF is going to be played at regardless who finished the season first.