Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Zidane98]

This is rather damning from Adolf Putin. Absoutely recognises Ukranian sovereignty and nationality back in 2008.

 

[Aussie in exile]

This is rather damning from Adolf Putin. Absoutely recognises Ukranian sovereignty and nationality back in 2008.

Which just goes to show your can't trust a word that Putin says, and why Putin can't be trusted to keep to any peace agreement.

 

[wannabejack]

On the Historical Disunity of Ukrainians and Russians

Putin tried to justify his full-scale invasion with an essay that denied any substantive distinction between Ukrainians and Russians. But he willfully ignored the most crucial historical difference.

www.kyivpost.com

Contrary to Putin’s statement, Ukraine is fundamentally different than Russia. It is important to restate the central principle which divides Ukraine and Russia: their systems of government. Yes, Ukrainians and Russians have a common predecessor in Kyivan-Rus dating back 1,000 years. But just as families can grow apart and seek different paths, Ukrainians and Russians have grown apart over the centuries. They have adopted fundamentally different views of the relationship between the individual and the state.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Add to all the above the EU's aggressive stance on climate change targets.

 

[Zidane98]

On the Historical Disunity of Ukrainians and Russians

Putin tried to justify his full-scale invasion with an essay that denied any substantive distinction between Ukrainians and Russians. But he willfully ignored the most crucial historical difference.

www.kyivpost.com

Contrary to Putin’s statement, Ukraine is fundamentally different than Russia. It is important to restate the central principle which divides Ukraine and Russia: their systems of government. Yes, Ukrainians and Russians have a common predecessor in Kyivan-Rus dating back 1,000 years. But just as families can grow apart and seek different paths, Ukrainians and Russians have grown apart over the centuries. They have adopted fundamentally different views of the relationship between the individual and the state.

So ridiculous to cite Kyivan-Rus as the reason why Russia owns Ukraine.



It's a bit like Sweden claiming England because the vikings were the original inhabitants.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Why is there a persistent belief amongst ng some of the anti Ukrainian types that crimea was agreed to be independent? I cannot fathom bd evidence that there was any agreement, only that it was part of Ukraine post ussr and there were some special status but still part of Ukraine.

 

[Jello_B]

Why is there a persistent belief amongst ng some of the anti Ukrainian types that crimea was agreed to be independent? I cannot fathom bd evidence that there was any agreement, only that it was part of Ukraine post ussr and there were some special status but still part of Ukraine.

This provides a bit of an overview, mess really.

History of Crimea (1991–2014) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Crankyhawk]

This provides a bit of an overview, mess really.

History of Crimea (1991–2014) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

and in the same article it even says this autonomous republic is part of Ukraine in 1992

In 1992 the ASSR was renamed as the Republic of Crimea in the newly independent Ukraine which maintained Crimea's autonomous status, while the Supreme Council of Crimea affirmed the peninsula's "sovereignty" as a part of Ukraine

 

[Jello_B]

and in the same article it even says this autonomous republic is part of Ukraine in 1992

In 1992 the ASSR was renamed as the Republic of Crimea in the newly independent Ukraine which maintained Crimea's autonomous status, while the Supreme Council of Crimea affirmed the peninsula's "sovereignty" as a part of Ukraine

Yer, it’s a bit of a mess. Seems like there was a fair amount of disagreement between the leaders of Crimea so understandable that people can form different opinions.

 

[wannabejack]

Posted elsewhere.
History repeating itself if russia win.

Russification

www.encyclopediaofukraine.com

Russification [русифікація; rusyfikatsia]. A set of policies or processes encouraging non-Russians to adopt the Russian language and culture and thus increasing Russian political domination in Ukraine and other Eastern European countries.

Ukraine came under increasing Russification pressures after the Pereiaslav Treaty of 1654. Ukrainian autonomy was gradually restricted and finally abolished. In 1720 it was forbidden to print books in Ukrainian, and Ukrainian redactions of Church Slavonic books had to be checked against Russian redactions ‘to avoid any discrepancies.’ The Governing Council of the Hetman Office (est 1734) was given secret instructions to promote the merging of the two nations through intermarriage. During the reign of Catherine II a wide Russification program was implemented in Ukraine by the Second Little Russian Collegium under Petr Rumiantsev. Russian became compulsory in the schools and in publications. The language of instruction at the Kyivan Mohyla Academy was switched to Russian. Russian was adopted as the administrative language in the Orthodox church, and Church Slavonic, used for sermons, had to be pronounced in the Russian way. The Holy Synod in 1769 did not permit the Kyivan Cave Monastery to print primers in Ukrainian. The policy of Russification was extended gradually into all spheres of social life, first in Left-Bank Ukraine, Kyiv, and Slobidska Ukraine, and after the suppression of the Polish Insurrection of 1830–1 in Right-Bank Ukraine as well.

The central government resettled people and manipulated migration patterns so as to promote Russification (see National composition of Ukraine and Migration). Russians were encouraged in various ways to move to Ukraine, and large numbers of them were settled there. Whereas Russians accounted for only 8.2 percent of Ukraine’s (within its postwar borders) population in 1926, by 1959 they accounted for 16.9 percent, and by 1989, for 22.1 percent.

 

[wannabejack]

Russification in Crimea. Genocide in Crimea.

Ukraine commemorates victims of genocide against Crimean Tatars

On Saturday, May 18, Ukraine marks the Day of Struggle for the Rights of the Crimean Tatar People and commemorates the victims of genocide against the Crimean Tatars on the 80th anniversary of the tragedy of their mass deportation. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

According to official data (the so-called numbers of Lavrentiy Beria), 183,144 people were deported. According to Tatar sources, more than 400,000 were deported, and about 46% of the deportees died within one-and-a-half years.

Deportation was part of the "de-Tatarization" of Crimea. Other elements included the destruction of cultural and historical monuments, the replacement of historical local names with new ones such as "Sovietsky", "Pervomaysk", "Krasnogvardeysk", etc.

Deportation was part of the "de-Tatarization" of Crimea. Other elements included the destruction of cultural and historical monuments, the replacement of historical local names with new ones such as "Sovietsky", "Pervomaysk", "Krasnogvardeysk", etc. People from Russia and other republics settled in Crimea. During the post-war period, the population of Crimea increased by almost ten times.

Stalin's policy towards the Crimean Tatars was not something new. Russia's capture of Crimea in 1783 led to the decline of cultural life on the peninsula, with many ancient manuscripts burned in a barbaric manner and many architectural monuments destroyed. It was then that the first settlement of Crimea by Russians and foreign colonists began, and the brutal Russification policy took hold.

 

[barreness]

Definitely. Why did Putin do it, then?

Geopolitical strategy for the kinetic century we find ourselves in.

Why does Australia freak out about Chinese money going to Micronesian states? Same answer

If you say so...

You seemed keen on the idea

 

[barreness]

Depopulation you say? Your mates in the most heavily populated part of the world might not be too thrilled.

My mates?

China's one child policy was the most effective environmental policy the world has seen. Capitalism and state capitalism doesn't work in degrowth and depopulation, a difficult prospect that will require change in the superstructure of humanity. It's inevitable though

 

[Smeg Head]

My mates?

China's one child policy was the most effective environmental policy the world has seen. Capitalism and state capitalism doesn't work in degrowth and depopulation, a difficult prospect that will require change in the superstructure of humanity. It's inevitable though

Side note: The only country actively at risk of wiping out all life of earth right now with a non nuclear sort of event is China with their continued large scale use and release of CFCs. The CCP are not environmentalists.

 

[jatz14]

Slurp up the propaganda like a good boy

Demographics is an overrated metric used by capitalists because their profits are in danger, depopulation is the best thing for the species and every other living thing

Not great for those fighting a war.

Unless Putin is a humanitarian at heart, saving the species through depopulation?

Maybe I have to rethink the Vatniks. Every dead Russian a triumph of Putins humanitarian instincts, and a sign of his willingness to save the species despite itself?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[barreness]

Sure, if Putin's aim was to save the Russian (and world) environment, by bringing down the Russian population, then he's doing a Stirling job. If his goal is to maximise the number of future recruits to expand the Russian Empire, not so much.

Ukraine had one of the oldest populations and lowest fertility rates pre war, this argument doesn't make sense. I guess war does tend to bump up births but I doubt that's part of the plan

The demographic cliff, Russia is intent on throwing itself over, only makes sticking with Ukraine now more important. If Russia is kept from expanding now, it won't have enough of fighting age (or the economy due to the skewed population setup) to do it down the track. Putin wants to be the Soviet Union, rolling towards Berlin, ignoring the Soviet Union included Ukraine and other countries now opposing them. Along with Russia's own shrinking population, ensures that can't be done anymore.

There's 66 million men in Russia, perhaps 30 million could be considered armable. Demographic arguments are rubbish for geopolitics, useful for internal economics. If you do consider it useful then you would know Ukraine is in a considerably worse position

There's good reason people say Demographics is Destiny.

I see you've been to the Peter Zeihan school, he's a corporate grifter

Putin does understand this to a degree, having failed to increase Russia's birth rate, he's left with turning conquered people into Russians to halt the already large gap between Russia's population (and linked economic and military strength) vs. Europe and the US. Europe and the US have low birth rates as well, but are still growing due to immigration.

Demographics IS destiny. The Ukraine war is horrific, but a silver lining amongst the horrors of it, is those demographics means if Russia is stopped now (as in fully pushed out of Ukraine) and contained for 10-20, whilst their population (, economy and military) shrinks, then for the first time in centuries no European country will need to fear Russia invading them again.

There's cognitive dissonance here; Russia is so useless that they can't conquer a slice of Ukraine, If they aren't stopped now they'll be in Berlin later this year. Choose one

Russia is the one that's been invaded for centuries, did you forget about the second world war or Napoleon?

 

[barreness]

Side note: The only country actively at risk of wiping out all life of earth right now with a non nuclear sort of event is China with their continued large scale use and release of CFCs. The CCP are not environmentalists.

Oh I know they're not, One child policy was about food security. It was unintentionally an environmental policy

CFC's? Really a late order concern with the amount of CO2 and methane being released by everyone, PFAS and micro plastic making everything infertile is also up there before CFC's. It's funny people look to the montreal protocol as some grand movement, they just had another usable gas that costs about the same, this is why none of the above issues are being dealt with, not cost effective

 

[Smeg Head]

Oh I know they're not, One child policy was about food security. It was unintentionally an environmental policy

CFC's? Really a late order concern with the amount of CO2 and methane being released by everyone, PFAS and micro plastic making everything infertile is also up there before CFC's. It's funny people look to the montreal protocol as some grand movement, they just had another usable gas that costs about the same, this is why none of the above issues are being dealt with, not cost effective

Actually yes CFCs, we need that ozone layer.

 

[barreness]

How is depopulation the best thing for the species? By what logic?

Less people less pollution, we're well beyond the carrying capacity.

By overshooting we lower carrying capacity for the future, You can have 8 billion people just not all at once

 

[Seeds]

Less people less pollution, we're well beyond the carrying capacity.

By overshooting we lower carrying capacity for the future, You can have 8 billion people just not all at once

is pollution actually harming humans at current population levels? Sure green house gas emissions are but technology is highly likely to eradicate that link this century (and hopefully by mid this century). Outside that how is pollution such a problem that humans would benefit if there were less of us?

 

[barreness]

Russia is becoming a vassal state. Do vassals have vassals?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yes there are hierarchies

For instance Australia is a vassal state of America, Fiji is a vassal state of Australia

Russia being a vassal state of China? to a degree, China clearly the economic powerhouse and building up their arms to suit, give it 10 years

 

[barreness]

is pollution actually harming humans at current population levels? Sure green house gas emissions are but technology is highly likely to eradicate that link this century (and hopefully by mid this century). Outside that how is pollution such a problem that humans would benefit if there were less of us?

You don't think Co2 is a pollutant?

If you think we can tech our way out of excess CO2 then you don't understand thermodynamics.
Humans and the things we eat make up 97% of mammal biomass, the environment doesn't work with those kind of numbers for one species.

There's microplastics in your testicles and PFAS in every raindrop, we're cooked

 

[Jello_B]

Yes there are hierarchies

For instance Australia is a vassal state of America, Fiji is a vassal state of Australia

Russia being a vassal state of China? to a degree, China clearly the economic powerhouse and building up their arms to suit, give it 10 years

You mean Australia can’t change our mind and switch allegiances to say a China without consequence. I am shocked.

 

[barreness]

You mean Australia can’t change our mind and switch allegiances to say a China without consequence. I am shocked.

Yep, see Whitlam

It could be done but you would need to essentially have a quiet revolution inside our internal security joints and the defence forces, would take years, a long coup if you will

Neither China nor the US is on our border so we do have more options than Ukraine

 

[Zidane98]

If things stay as they are Putin won't be able to maintain the Ukraine invasion by the end of next year.