Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[EagleMan87]

No, definitely, the capitalists will not give up their very real privileges and groteseque levels of wealth.
No devil voluntarily cuts its own claws off.

The revolution can only be carried out by the international working class, led by an international revolutionary party.
A party which bases itself not on what is good for any one nation, but what what is good for the international working class.

The establishment, and expansion of influence of this party, requires the political clarification of the highly class conscious and thoughtful sections of the working class.

These layers of workers will then expand their understanding to those who still remain unconvinced.

However, the speed of events, the advanced state of capitalist crisis, will accelerate this process.

The working class is driven to find a way out of capitalism simply because it will not be able to survive otherwise.

The process and dynamics of how this occurred has already been demonstrated in the Russian Revolution.

Now the task is to spread this revolution world wide.

So the millions/billions of people who despise any form of socialism (whether or not it actually is socialism, they've been conditioned to hate it) are just going to 'have their understanding expanded' and join in this revolution?

I honestly wish it could happen like that. Unfortunately, human nature tends towards the selfish, so what you've said will never happen, and any revolution would need to be backed by force and end up the same way as the French and Russian revolutions did: with lots and lots of innocent bloodshed.

 

[Cap]

Ukraine is not "being genocided" (as you put it). It is being invaded by an army which no doubt is committing war crimes, as always happens in reactionary wars which only serve the interests of the rich.

It quite literally is what Putin is doing

How about we abolish the social system which is producing the likes of Putin, AND Biden AND Trump AND Zelensky AND Albanese.....

Oh spare me. The human race has been creating these types since the first group dropped out of the trees.

There is 0 evidence that any other alternative will not produce the same types of people (however its absolutely absurd to suggest Biden and Zelensky are even remotely like Putin).

Edit - i need to add, pushing back against people Putin is what needs to happen. Tolerant societies need to be intolerant to intolerance.

 

[Jamolad]

I did also lol that what will make socialism successful this time is capitalism.

With the massive development of the productive forces and technology that has occurred under capitalism, the capacity for mankind to produce enough to satisfy the social needs of the world's population is not in dispute

Next question. How do you determine who does what?

How do you pick who has to work in the sewers, in offshore oil rigs, fight fires and otherwise work in dangerous and/or unpleasant conditions, for the same reward and same returns as the people you reward with the "cushy" jobs? And how do you keep those people content?

What changes will you make to higher education, and how will you determine who gets it?

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Again, I am telling you that human nature is there were be plenty that will not like socialism, not want socialism, even when everyone's social needs are guaranteed.

Most people will always want more than the 'average', more than enough. To answer your question, these are the people that will fight for the dictatorship even though their social needs are fulfilled because the dictatorship will give them slightly more than 'average', more than enough, for their loyalty.

What will you do with them? Get rid of them?

And by the way, the dictatorship will spring from your beloved and now ruling ICFI. They are the ones that will form the dictatorship, and they will justify that pivot as a "necessity" to prevent being ousted by counter-revolution.

I don't see how going global will be any different to all the times socialist revolution has turned into bloody dictatorial shit-shows the world over. Sure, I get your theory that there will be abundant resources for all if there is global socialism, but you're still up against human nature being majority want more than they need.

Guess in addition to your purge, you also need to re-educate the masses people. Hmmm, this is all sounding very familiar again...

I love a good brainwash unfortunately 100% of the time there comes a point that if I don't conform fully or I step outside a boundary ... I get harshly punished or ostracised

 

[Sarcoidevo]

I did also lol that what will make socialism successful this time is capitalism.

So you need capitalism for socialism to work .... riding on one's coat tails

Sounds like a bunch of parasites

 

[Visions]

PUTIN UPDATES RUSSIA's NUCLEAR POLICY

After high-ranking NATO officials publicly called for Ukraine to use NATO weapons to attack deep inside Russia, Russian President Vladimir Putin formally presented a proposed update to Russia’s nuclear policy that would expand the conditions under which Moscow would use nuclear weapons.

Speaking before a meeting of the Russian Security Council on Wednesday, Putin declared, “aggression against Russia by any non-nuclear-weapon state, but with the participation or support of a nuclear-weapon state, should be considered as a joint attack on the Russian Federation.”

He added, “We reserve the right to use nuclear weapons in the event of aggression against Russia and Belarus.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-changes-russias-nuclear-policy-are-signal-west-2024-09-26/

Holy shit.

Russia is currently under occupation by a non nuclear weapon state being supported by a nuclear weapon state. US tanks are currently rolling inside Russia as we speak and US missiles are destroying Russian equipment inside.

But **** me, Putin hasn’t pushed the button and the world is still alive.

Almost like we have heard this before once or twice or one hundred times…

 

[EagleMan87]

So you need capitalism for socialism to work .... riding on one's coat tails

Sounds like a bunch of parasites

To be fair, that is what Marx envisioned: it was to be the end result of a long process of feudalism>capitalism>socialism, and was supposed to begin in one of the industrialized nations, like the UK or France, as opposed to backwards AF Russia.

That doesn't mean it would have worked, of course.

 

[Millky95]

... and now for something a little different

 

[Mobbs]

No, definitely, the capitalists will not give up their very real privileges and groteseque levels of wealth.
No devil voluntarily cuts its own claws off.

The revolution can only be carried out by the international working class, led by an international revolutionary party.
A party which bases itself not on what is good for any one nation, but what what is good for the international working class.

The establishment, and expansion of influence of this party, requires the political clarification of the highly class conscious and thoughtful sections of the working class.

These layers of workers will then expand their understanding to those who still remain unconvinced.

However, the speed of events, the advanced state of capitalist crisis, will accelerate this process.

The working class is driven to find a way out of capitalism simply because it will not be able to survive otherwise.

The process and dynamics of how this occurred has already been demonstrated in the Russian Revolution.

Now the task is to spread this revolution world wide.

Cool post for a thread about the war in Ukraine.

 

[Jamolad]

Sorry guys.

Mods too for the clean-up..

 

[Zidane98]

What a surprise.

 

[barreness]

How long do you think Ukrainians would be able to go about their little thing if Putin is appeased? How long before Russia re-arms and comes again?

Depends on the treaty really; Georgia style and there's not a great reason for another Russian invasion, otherwise just before they join NATO proper I'd say

 

[Visions]

Cool post for a thread about the war in Ukraine.

The same poster derailed this thread not that long ago, then did the same in one of his US election threads with his socialism stuff (throwing in NATO and Ukraine for good measure), and now they’re back here derailing it for a second time with their non topic crap.

 

[barreness]

To be fair, that is what Marx envisioned: it was to be the end result of a long process of feudalism>capitalism>socialism, and was supposed to begin in one of the industrialized nations, like the UK or France, as opposed to backwards AF Russia.

That doesn't mean it would have worked, of course.

Yeh this.

Marx was a big fan of capitalism, he just thought it's internal contradictions would lead to it's collapse. I think he'll be right in the end but it's turned out to be far more resilient than he predicted

Sorry mods, adjacent discussion

 

[barreness]

I did also lol that what will make socialism successful this time is capitalism.

Lol Marx 101

Next question. How do you determine who does what?

How do you pick who has to work in the sewers, in offshore oil rigs, fight fires and otherwise work in dangerous and/or unpleasant conditions, for the same reward and same returns as the people you reward with the "cushy" jobs? And how do you keep those people content?

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

What changes will you make to higher education, and how will you determine who gets it?

I don't reckon MBA's will be getting as far as they do these days

 

[barreness]

Why would Putin use a nuke knowing his country would be retaliated against likewise?

Because it probably won't be

Unless Putin has a deathwish he knows that if uses nukes his beloved Russia will become an ashtray .... all for access to the Black Sea?

And then Russia launches it's 6k nukes. If 10% of them work then America launches all of theirs, if 1% of them hit it's still a world changing move

If Ukrainians went to the polls right now to vote on whether to align with Russia or Europe .... Europe wins hands down

Would the ones in Russia(and Europe) and occupied areas get the vote? no doubt the Ukrainian controlled areas would go pro europe, that's the basics of this conflict

The moment the Russian bear stepped inside Ukraine ..... Putin lost.... Russia lost

History will not be kind to Putin .... Russian history won't be kind to Putin

Would think there's still a lot of doubt about this, worse than Gorbachev? Yeltsin? for Russians probably not. We'll see as always