Your thoughts about bad wood

[audas]

Just read a post about Davies no longer hanging around with bad influences.

Pagan has a real policy of good blokes only (dont know how carey fitted into that, lucky he could kick the pill)

Most people around here are well informed and well considered so would like to hear their thoughts on who was and still is a bad seed at the the club.

What the effects have been prior to and as a result of weeding out the vermin.

And who was influenced,....


Start wiht the obvious.

 

[btdg]

Problem with Carlton is they haven't completely weeded out the vermin yet. Fevola is talented but a cancer. Pagan's flaw is that he's prepared to overlook that because of his talent. That worked with Carey because you had Stevens, Archer, Laidley, Blakey, Longmire, McCartney and a host of other great team guys to balance out - plus on-field Carey was the consumate leader, arrogant but you couldn't fault him for his effort or courage. Fevola doesn't even bring that.

At Carlton you've still got Whitnall, Houlihan, Lappin hanging around as well. Whitnall's constant weight problems have become a farce. Apparently he simply doesn't care enough, and as a senior guy that reflects on the others (note youngsters like Eddie Betts entering into similar problems). Houlihan and Lappin are both talented players who bring little to the table other than flashy play - not the hard workers we need.

I don't reckon we can develop until those 4 players are gone, to be honest. Like St Kilda in the Plugger/Winmar era, every now and then we'll hit some good form and win a bunch of games, cos when we're travelling well we've got plenty of guys who can ride that wave. When it goes bad though there's not enough players with the character to step up and turn it around, and it will tend to go from bad to worse

 

[stokesy]

Houlihan and Lappin are both talented players who bring little to the table other than flashy play - not the hard workers we need.

I would have to disagree with your comment there about Lappin.

His probably been our hardest worker over the last 3-4 seasons.

 

[WTTF]

I would have to disagree with your comment there about Lappin.

His probably been our hardest worker over the last 3-4 seasons.

Spot on Stokesy..........putting Lappin in this category is a disgrace.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

I would have to disagree with your comment there about Lappin.

His probably been our hardest worker over the last 3-4 seasons.

Couldn't agree with you more, and btdg please don't ever compare Houlihan to Lappin. If Houlihan worked half as hard as Lappin he might actually make a player of himself.

 

[mojo31]

Lappin had a big sook this year after his contract negotiations. I think he got some bad advice from Ron Joseph (the only sort of advice he gives these days).

Up until this year he had been our best player the last 4 years. All Australian and should have been a best and fairest winner.
Puts in at training and is a good influence around the club on the youngsters.

The direct opposite of Camporeale.

Houlihan was not put up for trade because he has a contract and its a hefty one. Means we would not get any real interest in him. The match committee decided to send him back to the VFL to harden him up a little and make him more team oriented and accountable.
He has 1 year to run on his contract and will need to show that he has changed his game to remain. Nobody expects him to be Michael Voss but when its your turn to put your head over the ball you cant ever think about it.

The Hawthorn/Lance Franklin debacle aside he is a sensitive bloke (does not take criticism well) who has talent and is only 23. Would play him forward of the ball where his skills are best utilised.

Hopefully he can step up. For Gods sake Ryan when you get the ball stop being so laconic and put the foot down and get clear and then compose yourself before kicking. Pace is only good if you use it and have intensity and urgency.


Justin Davies will need to do better this year. The VFL report at the end of the year left a bad taste in my mouth. So sellfish and letting his teamates down. He is also on his last chance.

Its a deep draft next year and plenty of players available to replace some on our list.

 

[Blue70]

Problem with Carlton is they haven't completely weeded out the vermin yet. Fevola is talented but a cancer. Pagan's flaw is that he's prepared to overlook that because of his talent. That worked with Carey because you had Stevens, Archer, Laidley, Blakey, Longmire, McCartney and a host of other great team guys to balance out - plus on-field Carey was the consumate leader, arrogant but you couldn't fault him for his effort or courage. Fevola doesn't even bring that.

At Carlton you've still got Whitnall, Houlihan, Lappin hanging around as well. Whitnall's constant weight problems have become a farce. Apparently he simply doesn't care enough, and as a senior guy that reflects on the others (note youngsters like Eddie Betts entering into similar problems). Houlihan and Lappin are both talented players who bring little to the table other than flashy play - not the hard workers we need.

I don't reckon we can develop until those 4 players are gone, to be honest. Like St Kilda in the Plugger/Winmar era, every now and then we'll hit some good form and win a bunch of games, cos when we're travelling well we've got plenty of guys who can ride that wave. When it goes bad though there's not enough players with the character to step up and turn it around, and it will tend to go from bad to worse

This is a very dissapointing post, very uninformed and almost disgraceful for the following reasons:

1). Lappin is an absolute model player. He trains extremely hard and has not been involved in anything untoward off the field for years. He has settled down over the past 4 or 5 years and sets a great example to our younger kids. He also displays genuine loyalty and affection for the club.

2). Houlihan - OK he may be soft and he may have had a dissapointing 05 however he had a very good year in 04. He also has had the 1 discretion 4 years ago and has not done anything wrong off the field since. He is still only 23, has a heap of talent and I think will prove alot of people wrong in 06. Pagan will play him on-ball/forward where he has displayed more form in the past.

3). Whitnall - how you can bracket Lance in this category is a mystery. He has an issue with his weight however most of this talk is a beat-up to get a story. If you have been down to training you will see that he does everything everyone else does and does not look unfit at all. In addition he beat his time-trial for 3km this year so lets not raise the fitness issue again. Besides this I really dont think you have the grounds to question his character.

4). Fevola - He probably has one of the best characters at the club. I know you are going to raise the body language on the field but that is one aspect that he knows he needs to correct and is intent on doing so. As far as his character is concerned he is the first to welcome and assist any new or young players at the club, is fantastic with supporters and put in a big effort to try and assist Norman to stay out of trouble and focus on his footy. Watch out for him next season.

The reasons why we have not been competitive over the past 4 years is:

1). Penalties imposed by the AFL - We should have had Goddard, Wells and Griffin (first round picks) in addition to Walker and Murphy - let alone the 2nd and 3rd round players we would have got.

2). An ageing list highlighted by retirements to key players within a short time frame (Silvagni, Ratten, McKay, Hickmott)

And I would suggest that before you question the characters of the players above have better facts as it is all too easy to sit on the sidelines and make these uninformed and defamatory comments.

 

[Muji]

Well said Blue70.

 

[Andyt30]

those 4 won;t be going anywhere in the near future they will play until they either retire from Injury or retire when the reach a certain age mid 30's
could be 5-10 years nor neccesarly 10 years could be 4,5 or 6
i can see them big improvers in 2006

How about getting rid of Negetive Supporters the dead wood lets start having supports trade ones who getting sick of their team can go else where

 

[HBF]

Very very nicely summed up Blue70.

 

[les22]

Have you seen the boys train? or just read the papers, saw Whitnal last week at training looks good to me

 

[Blues_Man]

Well said Blue70 , btgd you have no idea

 

[btdg]

This is a very dissapointing post, very uninformed and almost disgraceful for the following reasons:

1). Lappin is an absolute model player. He trains extremely hard and has not been involved in anything untoward off the field for years. He has settled down over the past 4 or 5 years and sets a great example to our younger kids. He also displays genuine loyalty and affection for the club.

2). Houlihan - OK he may be soft and he may have had a dissapointing 05 however he had a very good year in 04. He also has had the 1 discretion 4 years ago and has not done anything wrong off the field since. He is still only 23, has a heap of talent and I think will prove alot of people wrong in 06. Pagan will play him on-ball/forward where he has displayed more form in the past.

3). Whitnall - how you can bracket Lance in this category is a mystery. He has an issue with his weight however most of this talk is a beat-up to get a story. If you have been down to training you will see that he does everything everyone else does and does not look unfit at all. In addition he beat his time-trial for 3km this year so lets not raise the fitness issue again. Besides this I really dont think you have the grounds to question his character.

4). Fevola - He probably has one of the best characters at the club. I know you are going to raise the body language on the field but that is one aspect that he knows he needs to correct and is intent on doing so. As far as his character is concerned he is the first to welcome and assist any new or young players at the club, is fantastic with supporters and put in a big effort to try and assist Norman to stay out of trouble and focus on his footy. Watch out for him next season.

The reasons why we have not been competitive over the past 4 years is:

1). Penalties imposed by the AFL - We should have had Goddard, Wells and Griffin (first round picks) in addition to Walker and Murphy - let alone the 2nd and 3rd round players we would have got.

2). An ageing list highlighted by retirements to key players within a short time frame (Silvagni, Ratten, McKay, Hickmott)

And I would suggest that before you question the characters of the players above have better facts as it is all too easy to sit on the sidelines and make these uninformed and defamatory comments.

Are you blind. The AFL penalties are not the reason we have not been competitive over the last 4 years. Our own stupidity is. Look at our draft picks from the period before that: Massie, Vance, Livingstone, Chatfield, Smart, Campbell, O'keefe; all picks 50 and above, all gone or going.
Sporn, Wiggins, Davies; mediocre at best. And our trades; McKernan, O'Reilly, Mansfield, Gallagher, Eccles, Murphy, Cranage, Charles... Not to mention the fact we tried to cheat and got caught, we spent millions on a crap new stand at our home game but let our coaching and training facilities fall well behind the new power clubs, and managed to end up well over the salary cap in the same year we finished on the bottom of the ladder.

You talk about players retiring at the same time. Yet since 1994, comentators had been going on about how our list was ageing, and we pretended to know better. We knew it was coming, but didn't cater for it - instead, we paid players well past their deserves and well past their primes. Quite simply, we were too arrogant to adapt to modern football, and as a result, we have the worst list in the league, full stop.

Now, onto the players I criticised.
Lappin - ok, maybe I was a bit harsh on Lappin. He has been fairly loyal to the club, contract bitching notwithstanding and is a talented player. But is he the type of guy we want to build a team around? He's essentially an outside midfielder, and probably in the middle-tier for this group in the league. Where would he fit in a premiership team - probably in the bottom 5-10 players, certainly not a star at this point (was great when first moved to defence a few years ago, but not last year). He's now 29 - its doubtful he will be a part of this team when they are successful in 3-5 years. But he isn't the typical Pagan type player - a hard-nosed, in and under type. So the young guys that represent our future won't learn a great deal from him. I don't care how good he is now - I care about the future of our club and he isn't a part of it; whilst its unfair I conceed to put him in with the others, he won't be around when we are next a premiership threat...

Houlihan - There's another thread about this guy where I give my opinion on his playing ability. To summarise though, I don't see where we can play him. Again, he is soft, performs well in good teams but not when the going is tough, and isn't a Pagan type of player. Has maybe one more chance left to utilise his considerable talent... big deal. Talented players who give you good performances during good times and go missing when things are bad are a dime a dozen. I'd get rid of him while he is still young and has some value - there's no point waiting for potential that never eventuates, better to get a contributor who will at least put his body on the line (even if they are less talented).

Whitnall - I'm not going on media beat-ups here, this guy simply isn't worth it. The weight problems are part of it, but its the attitude it reflects that is worrying. This guy is rich, has access to the best trainers in the world, and has nothing to do between August and March. You would think at some point it would click that he could use that time to get fit. Sure, his metabolism is slower, his physique is heavy-set, whatever. He knows that, he knows he has to work harder than everyone else to keep up, yet he doesn't put in that extra effort that would take him from very good player to superstar. People continually make excuses for him, but the end result is that one of the most highly paid players in our team ended up last year playing as a spare man in defence - because he can't do the hard yards required to be a genuine chf, and he can't keep up as a key defender. Essentially we have our own Jason Cloke, but at double the cost. And he's part of the leadership group??? I would have taken mid-teens draft pick for him this year, cos by the time this contract expires I doubt he will be worth that...

Fevola - This is a tough one. Awesome talent, but a head-case. You could build a team around him, but then watch him tear it all apart cos he's having a bad day. Interesting to note how other teams have dealt with similar players. St Kilda traded Hall and Everitt. West Coast let Gehrig go. Melbourne let Farmer go home. Strangely enough, those teams are now all premiership contenders. Its unfortunate for us, but for him to reach his best I believe he has to leave the club. We could get a great return for him, probably not his full worth, but at least something. Difficult call, but he's had a lot of chances, shown promise yet so often had a brain melt as well. When he goes down, the team goes down. Maybe one more year was the right call here though, because next years draft is supposedly better, and he might just mature enough. I'm not going to raise body-language on the field. I'm going to raise body-language on it, off it, at club functions, and everywhere he goes. He's not a leader, he's a cancer. As I said previously, you can tolerate one or two guys like that just for their talent if you surround them with the right guys. We don't have those guys. And its gonna be pretty damn hard to find them considering our lack of on-field leadership, and the example he and others have set.

To those who bagged me for calling out our players - what is this, the mediocrity society? In case you hadn't realised, we finished on the bottom last year, with the worst list in the comp, and we've only just started re-building. I can't accept that. A significant part of that comes from our poor decision making as a club and our failure to instigate proper accountability for decision-making. Another part comes from the players we have continually over-rated, over-paid, and the mediocrity we've accepted from them. I can't accept that in the future - but don't you lecture me about loyalty to the club...

Any of those guys might prove me wrong. I still think their a gamble we can't afford to take. Even if it comes off and they all play their best, we finish 10-12 for the next 3-5 years and have less chance of rebuilding properly when we convince ourselves (yet again) that we are better than we really are. If it doesn't, and their example influences the next generation, we end up back where we are now in 3 years time.

 

[Blues_Man]

yes The Saints let hall go he just played a key role in them winning a premiership ...they also let Wakeling go to Port ...he won a premiership with them ...Everitt was possibly the Hawks best player last year ...your logic is a bit askew

 

[btdg]

yes The Saints let hall go he just played a key role in them winning a premiership ...they also let Wakeling go to Port ...he won a premiership with them ...Everitt was possibly the Hawks best player last year ...your logic is a bit askew

My logic on that is not askew. Many of the top teams in the league, as part of their rebuilding process, traded or let go players who were extremely talented because they felt they were not the type of players the club needed. The let talent go, accumulated some great leaders and team players, and then replaced the talent; now they are close to the best team around. The players that left have also realised their potential - thats the catch-22 here. But would any St Kilda fan trade the St Kilda team of 2000 for the team of today? My point is that I think Fevola is in the same category. We don't have the leaders to contain him, so he brings the team down. For us to get better, we need to trade him for someone with maybe less talent, but better leadership skills. Talent is easily replaceable through the draft, salary cap space and good list management.

 

[Blue70]

Are you blind. The AFL penalties are not the reason we have not been competitive over the last 4 years. Our own stupidity is. Look at our draft picks from the period before that: Massie, Vance, Livingstone, Chatfield, Smart, Campbell, O'keefe; all picks 50 and above, all gone or going.
Sporn, Wiggins, Davies; mediocre at best. And our trades; McKernan, O'Reilly, Mansfield, Gallagher, Eccles, Murphy, Cranage, Charles... Not to mention the fact we tried to cheat and got caught, we spent millions on a crap new stand at our home game but let our coaching and training facilities fall well behind the new power clubs, and managed to end up well over the salary cap in the same year we finished on the bottom of the ladder.

You talk about players retiring at the same time. Yet since 1994, comentators had been going on about how our list was ageing, and we pretended to know better. We knew it was coming, but didn't cater for it - instead, we paid players well past their deserves and well past their primes. Quite simply, we were too arrogant to adapt to modern football, and as a result, we have the worst list in the league, full stop.

Now, onto the players I criticised.
Lappin - ok, maybe I was a bit harsh on Lappin. He has been fairly loyal to the club, contract bitching notwithstanding and is a talented player. But is he the type of guy we want to build a team around? He's essentially an outside midfielder, and probably in the middle-tier for this group in the league. Where would he fit in a premiership team - probably in the bottom 5-10 players, certainly not a star at this point (was great when first moved to defence a few years ago, but not last year). He's now 29 - its doubtful he will be a part of this team when they are successful in 3-5 years. But he isn't the typical Pagan type player - a hard-nosed, in and under type. So the young guys that represent our future won't learn a great deal from him. I don't care how good he is now - I care about the future of our club and he isn't a part of it; whilst its unfair I conceed to put him in with the others, he won't be around when we are next a premiership threat...

Houlihan - There's another thread about this guy where I give my opinion on his playing ability. To summarise though, I don't see where we can play him. Again, he is soft, performs well in good teams but not when the going is tough, and isn't a Pagan type of player. Has maybe one more chance left to utilise his considerable talent... big deal. Talented players who give you good performances during good times and go missing when things are bad are a dime a dozen. I'd get rid of him while he is still young and has some value - there's no point waiting for potential that never eventuates, better to get a contributor who will at least put his body on the line (even if they are less talented).

Whitnall - I'm not going on media beat-ups here, this guy simply isn't worth it. The weight problems are part of it, but its the attitude it reflects that is worrying. This guy is rich, has access to the best trainers in the world, and has nothing to do between August and March. You would think at some point it would click that he could use that time to get fit. Sure, his metabolism is slower, his physique is heavy-set, whatever. He knows that, he knows he has to work harder than everyone else to keep up, yet he doesn't put in that extra effort that would take him from very good player to superstar. People continually make excuses for him, but the end result is that one of the most highly paid players in our team ended up last year playing as a spare man in defence - because he can't do the hard yards required to be a genuine chf, and he can't keep up as a key defender. Essentially we have our own Jason Cloke, but at double the cost. And he's part of the leadership group??? I would have taken mid-teens draft pick for him this year, cos by the time this contract expires I doubt he will be worth that...

Fevola - This is a tough one. Awesome talent, but a head-case. You could build a team around him, but then watch him tear it all apart cos he's having a bad day. Interesting to note how other teams have dealt with similar players. St Kilda traded Hall and Everitt. West Coast let Gehrig go. Melbourne let Farmer go home. Strangely enough, those teams are now all premiership contenders. Its unfortunate for us, but for him to reach his best I believe he has to leave the club. We could get a great return for him, probably not his full worth, but at least something. Difficult call, but he's had a lot of chances, shown promise yet so often had a brain melt as well. When he goes down, the team goes down. Maybe one more year was the right call here though, because next years draft is supposedly better, and he might just mature enough. I'm not going to raise body-language on the field. I'm going to raise body-language on it, off it, at club functions, and everywhere he goes. He's not a leader, he's a cancer. As I said previously, you can tolerate one or two guys like that just for their talent if you surround them with the right guys. We don't have those guys. And its gonna be pretty damn hard to find them considering our lack of on-field leadership, and the example he and others have set.

To those who bagged me for calling out our players - what is this, the mediocrity society? In case you hadn't realised, we finished on the bottom last year, with the worst list in the comp, and we've only just started re-building. I can't accept that. A significant part of that comes from our poor decision making as a club and our failure to instigate proper accountability for decision-making. Another part comes from the players we have continually over-rated, over-paid, and the mediocrity we've accepted from them. I can't accept that in the future - but don't you lecture me about loyalty to the club...

Any of those guys might prove me wrong. I still think their a gamble we can't afford to take. Even if it comes off and they all play their best, we finish 10-12 for the next 3-5 years and have less chance of rebuilding properly when we convince ourselves (yet again) that we are better than we really are. If it doesn't, and their example influences the next generation, we end up back where we are now in 3 years time.

I am definately not blind btdg and watch the game and more importantly our club quite closely. It is obvious that you are passionate but let me pull you up on a few things:

1). Your first paragraph talks about decisions and strategies undertaken by a previous regime, didnt we all (as voting members) engineer the removal of this board for those very decisions - therefore I dont think any of us can be accused of accepting mediocrity here!

2). You talk about commentators discussing our list since 1994 - well we made the finals in 94, won the GF in 95, made the finals again in 96, made a GF again in 99, made finals again in 2000 and 2001 so lets not go on about this point. How many other teams have that kind of record in the last 10 years?

3). I have already given my opinion on the players mentioned but to finish off let me just say this:

* I dont recall Jason Cloke being named an All Australian, or kicking 70 goals in a season, or bags of 5 & 6 regularly. Unfair to compare Whitnall to Cloke.

* Lappin has been an absolutely fantastic player for us since the day he was recruited. His last 2 contract negotiations have shown how loyal he is as he could easily have walked for more money - on both occassions.

We all realise that we finished bottom last year and no one hates that more than I but I dont not put it down solely to the performance or the character of the players you have mentioned.

Lets start being more supporting of the players, the team, the coach and more importantly the club. It is unCarlton like not to do so!

 

[therubbernub]

I think that you are ignoring the fact that any side needs a mix of different types of players. Some inside, some outside players. Some taggers and some creative players.
The problem is that when you have a list with so many holes and so many inexperienced players still learning the game, you often have to play players out of position or in such a way that does not seem to suit there game. Andy McKay had an average season a few years back, simply because he was being forced to cover for too many inexperienced defenders and his natural attacking rebound defence game suffered... the point being that even champions can suffer in an unbalanced team structure.

Now back to the players you mentioned
Lappin needs to be able to play an attacking game. If made accountable then he suffers. Has shown heaps of loyalty IMO.
Whitnal - As a KPP he suffers from size and speed and spring. Fitness.. well its hard to get really fit if you miss preseasons with injury. Lets not confuse fitness with body shape. Diesal williams is a classic case in point. Whitnal needs a hard crash and bash player to shine. He simply does not play this type of footy. With Hamill in the side, He was able to play his natural creative game. He has struggled since in the forward line. I agree he is overpaid, but to suggest that he needs to be moved on is a bit harsh
Houlihan- outside player. Needs it dished out to him, but when he has to get his own ball, his game suffers. You need outside players/ finishers as well as the in and unders.
Fevola- injured last year. Lost his pace and leap due to OP. Previous year was much better. I am all in favour of trading him but to suggest that we would have to accept below market value is sheer stupidity. You only trade a star player if you are being payed above odds for him.

It is interesting that you have chosen players with above average skills, who are to a varying extent reliant on others to get the ball for them. They are the "creative" element in the side. Perhaps these types of players build excitement and expectation with supporters more than the inside types of players. We have higher expectations of them and when they cant deliver due to team structure we want to axe them. IMO we need to keeps them for the future when we hopefully will have the right sort of inside players surrounding them to let them shine.

 

[mediumsizered]

Are you blind. The AFL penalties are not the reason we have not been competitive over the last 4 years. Our own stupidity is. Look at our draft picks from the period before that: Massie, Vance, Livingstone, Chatfield, Smart, Campbell, O'keefe; all picks 50 and above, all gone or going.
Sporn, Wiggins, Davies; mediocre at best. And our trades; McKernan, O'Reilly, Mansfield, Gallagher, Eccles, Murphy, Cranage, Charles... Not to mention the fact we tried to cheat and got caught, we spent millions on a crap new stand at our home game but let our coaching and training facilities fall well behind the new power clubs, and managed to end up well over the salary cap in the same year we finished on the bottom of the ladder.

You talk about players retiring at the same time. Yet since 1994, comentators had been going on about how our list was ageing, and we pretended to know better. We knew it was coming, but didn't cater for it - instead, we paid players well past their deserves and well past their primes. Quite simply, we were too arrogant to adapt to modern football, and as a result, we have the worst list in the league, full stop.

Now, onto the players I criticised.
Lappin - ok, maybe I was a bit harsh on Lappin. He has been fairly loyal to the club, contract bitching notwithstanding and is a talented player. But is he the type of guy we want to build a team around? He's essentially an outside midfielder, and probably in the middle-tier for this group in the league. Where would he fit in a premiership team - probably in the bottom 5-10 players, certainly not a star at this point (was great when first moved to defence a few years ago, but not last year). He's now 29 - its doubtful he will be a part of this team when they are successful in 3-5 years. But he isn't the typical Pagan type player - a hard-nosed, in and under type. So the young guys that represent our future won't learn a great deal from him. I don't care how good he is now - I care about the future of our club and he isn't a part of it; whilst its unfair I conceed to put him in with the others, he won't be around when we are next a premiership threat...

Houlihan - There's another thread about this guy where I give my opinion on his playing ability. To summarise though, I don't see where we can play him. Again, he is soft, performs well in good teams but not when the going is tough, and isn't a Pagan type of player. Has maybe one more chance left to utilise his considerable talent... big deal. Talented players who give you good performances during good times and go missing when things are bad are a dime a dozen. I'd get rid of him while he is still young and has some value - there's no point waiting for potential that never eventuates, better to get a contributor who will at least put his body on the line (even if they are less talented).

Whitnall - I'm not going on media beat-ups here, this guy simply isn't worth it. The weight problems are part of it, but its the attitude it reflects that is worrying. This guy is rich, has access to the best trainers in the world, and has nothing to do between August and March. You would think at some point it would click that he could use that time to get fit. Sure, his metabolism is slower, his physique is heavy-set, whatever. He knows that, he knows he has to work harder than everyone else to keep up, yet he doesn't put in that extra effort that would take him from very good player to superstar. People continually make excuses for him, but the end result is that one of the most highly paid players in our team ended up last year playing as a spare man in defence - because he can't do the hard yards required to be a genuine chf, and he can't keep up as a key defender. Essentially we have our own Jason Cloke, but at double the cost. And he's part of the leadership group??? I would have taken mid-teens draft pick for him this year, cos by the time this contract expires I doubt he will be worth that...

Fevola - This is a tough one. Awesome talent, but a head-case. You could build a team around him, but then watch him tear it all apart cos he's having a bad day. Interesting to note how other teams have dealt with similar players. St Kilda traded Hall and Everitt. West Coast let Gehrig go. Melbourne let Farmer go home. Strangely enough, those teams are now all premiership contenders. Its unfortunate for us, but for him to reach his best I believe he has to leave the club. We could get a great return for him, probably not his full worth, but at least something. Difficult call, but he's had a lot of chances, shown promise yet so often had a brain melt as well. When he goes down, the team goes down. Maybe one more year was the right call here though, because next years draft is supposedly better, and he might just mature enough. I'm not going to raise body-language on the field. I'm going to raise body-language on it, off it, at club functions, and everywhere he goes. He's not a leader, he's a cancer. As I said previously, you can tolerate one or two guys like that just for their talent if you surround them with the right guys. We don't have those guys. And its gonna be pretty damn hard to find them considering our lack of on-field leadership, and the example he and others have set.

To those who bagged me for calling out our players - what is this, the mediocrity society? In case you hadn't realised, we finished on the bottom last year, with the worst list in the comp, and we've only just started re-building. I can't accept that. A significant part of that comes from our poor decision making as a club and our failure to instigate proper accountability for decision-making. Another part comes from the players we have continually over-rated, over-paid, and the mediocrity we've accepted from them. I can't accept that in the future - but don't you lecture me about loyalty to the club...

Any of those guys might prove me wrong. I still think their a gamble we can't afford to take. Even if it comes off and they all play their best, we finish 10-12 for the next 3-5 years and have less chance of rebuilding properly when we convince ourselves (yet again) that we are better than we really are. If it doesn't, and their example influences the next generation, we end up back where we are now in 3 years time.

Must pick you up on a couple of points. The choice of Kris Massie was not a bad one and it still astounds me that he was traded to Adelaide. He would be a certainty to be holding down a half back flank if he was still at Carlton (and he is close to a 100 game player now). Yes, Houlihan is soft, but the main reason he gets found out is the lack of hard bodied players around him. Houlihan would have been a fantastic half forward flanker playing alongside the likes of Maclure, Kernahan or Spalding. Hopefully in 2-3 years time with the further development of Waite and Fisher and the development of Kennedy and Setanta, we will have enough hard bodies to enable Houlihan to show his silky skills and his ability to regularly kick freakish goals

When looking at Fevola, have a look at what Gehrig has achieved in the last 2 years at St Kilda. Given Fev has demonstrated he is a big goal kicker (63 and 66 in 2003 and 2004 respectively), let's see what he achieves in the next couple of years with a better midfield. There wouldn't be any full forward in the AFL, at the moment, who could consistently kick bags of goals with the type of ball delivery Fev has been getting from our midfield over the last 3 years.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Deisel and Lance cant be compared.
Deisel was a winner... he had winning written all over him.
A consumate professional.

Lance is a bludger.
He doesnt liuke hard work.
He is not a winner... he does not have the singleminded competitive streak that Williams had.

I would have turfed Lance out this year for a pick or two...
Fevola has next year to prove himself or he would go the same way.

And im a huge Fev fan....

But we dont need cherries for a cake we need a cake!!!.. then we can worry about the cherries to go on it.

 

[mediumsizered]

Deisel and Lance cant be compared.
Deisel was a winner... he had winning written all over him.
A consumate professional.

Lance is a bludger.
He doesnt liuke hard work.
He is not a winner... he does not have the singleminded competitive streak that Williams had.

To say that Lance is not a winner, you are obviously forgetting how many times throughout his career ( and that includes the few wins we have had in recent seasons), he has kicked important goals in last quarters, when games have been up for grabs. The obvious one being his goal in the last quarter in the '99 prelim final. But more recently his last quarter goals in our wins over Essendon in the last 3 years and his last quarter goal in the 2004 win over Hawthorn. Carlton haven't had many players, in recent years, able to step up to the plate when games are there to be won, but Lance is one that has.

Even cast your mind back to late in the last quarter of the 2nd game against Essendon in 2001, when Lance took a mark on the wing and then held the ball up, despite no Essendon player standing the mark, then bounced the ball so the umpire couldn't hurry him up and waited until enough Carlton players reached the next contest then pumped the ball towards half forward, where Kouta crumbed the contest and threw the ball onto his left boot and kicked the ball towards the goal square where Lappin marked uncontested. This was the action of a player who knew what to do when a match was there to be won.

Note most of these efforts, by Lance, have been against Essendon. They're the games you want to win and Lance is your match winner.

 

[RoK]

You talk about players retiring at the same time. Yet since 1994, comentators had been going on about how our list was ageing,

I love it when people say stupis things like this.
95 flag 99 GF 00 we would have won the falg but injures stuffed us 01 Prelim final,

We did not ne to rebuild we need older players to fill B grade spots.Our first spoon came because we could bearly feild a team we had that many out.

For christ sake pull ya head out of ya arse.

 

[btdg]

Must pick you up on a couple of points. The choice of Kris Massie was not a bad one and it still astounds me that he was traded to Adelaide. He would be a certainty to be holding down a half back flank if he was still at Carlton (and he is close to a 100 game player now). Yes, Houlihan is soft, but the main reason he gets found out is the lack of hard bodied players around him. Houlihan would have been a fantastic half forward flanker playing alongside the likes of Maclure, Kernahan or Spalding. Hopefully in 2-3 years time with the further development of Waite and Fisher and the development of Kennedy and Setanta, we will have enough hard bodies to enable Houlihan to show his silky skills and his ability to regularly kick freakish goals

When looking at Fevola, have a look at what Gehrig has achieved in the last 2 years at St Kilda. Given Fev has demonstrated he is a big goal kicker (63 and 66 in 2003 and 2004 respectively), let's see what he achieves in the next couple of years with a better midfield. There wouldn't be any full forward in the AFL, at the moment, who could consistently kick bags of goals with the type of ball delivery Fev has been getting from our midfield over the last 3 years.

Massie was drafted at pick 7 in 1997. Other players still on the board at that time:
pick 8: Chris Tarrant (Collingwood)
pick 9: Chad Cornes (Port Adelaide)
pick 10: Shane O'Bree (Brisbane)
pick 11: Jason Saddington (Sydney)
pick 25: Nick Stevens (Port Adelaide)
pick 20: Dean Solomon (Essendon)
pick 31: Simon Black (Brisbane)
pick 43: Adam Goodes (Sydney)

Throw in a whole stack of sleepers in the late picks that year, and its fair to say we missed on Massie...

My point on Fevola is that like Gehrig, I believe he needs to be traded in order to wake up to himself and realise his potential. I think he is fantastic, very talented, but he's not a leader. We need to develop leadership more than we need his goalkicking. Although, I do think it might be worth seeing how he goes in 2006 before making any decisions there...

 

[btdg]

I love it when people say stupis things like this.
95 flag 99 GF 00 we would have won the falg but injures stuffed us 01 Prelim final,

We did not ne to rebuild we need older players to fill B grade spots.Our first spoon came because we could bearly feild a team we had that many out.

For christ sake pull ya head out of ya arse.

An original post said the reason our list was so bad was that we had a lot of retirements in a short space of time. Yet people had been commenting on the age of our list for 6-7 years prior to that. Everyone could see we were going to be hit by retirements and didn't have the players coming through to replace them. Yet we tried to fill gaps with more old, past-it players instead of developing the next generation (McKernan, O'Reilly, Mansfield etc). At the time, outsiders were asking questions about that policy. Its not like our failure came out of no-where.

And you are right, we won a premiership in 2006. In 1999, we finished 6th, got walloped in our first final yet got through to a grand final thanks to a dodgy 'home' final and a fluked preliminary. This was the worst thing that could have happened to us because it made us think we were better than we actually were. The following year we made a great run, playing with confidence, but fell apart when we suffered a few injuries. That should have set alarm bells ringing - clearly our depth wasn't that great. Then as noted we filled gaps to try and win a premiership we were a long way off winning (no-one who saw the 2001 semi-final in which were eliminated by Richmond could think otherwise), and the rest of our demise is history... In hindsight, it was clear Elliot et al were trying to cover for their ineptitude by trying to buy on-field results - illegally as it turned out. Yet even now its apparent some supporters buy the line that we were just one ageing has-been away from a premiership...

 

[les22]

I am getting sick of all these smart arse so called supporters bagging Carlton
I am fortunate enough to have seen 10 premierships.What other club has given as much. Carlton owes me nothing If some supprters can not accept every club has down periods then please bugger off and give your loyalty to a club that deserves you We dont need you

 

[btdg]

I am getting sick of all these smart arse so called supporters bagging Carlton
I am fortunate enough to have seen 10 premierships.What other club has given as much. Carlton owes me nothing If some supprters can not accept every club has down periods then please bugger off and give your loyalty to a club that deserves you We dont need you

Thats right, we've already won 16 premierships - we shouldn't try to win any more. Nor should we ever criticise the club, no matter how stupid its decision-making is

Down periods - fine. I've been to just as many games during the down periods as the good periods, and I'll keep going. I'm a supporter of the club, though, not an apologist, and forgive me if I reserve the right to criticise the club for its poor decisions, or occasionally offer my opinion on a footy discussion board. The reason Carlton is in such a crap state now is that it had too many yes-men for too long, and alternative views were ignored.