Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[footscray1973]

Us chasing Barrass is a decoy. We keep West Coast list guys busy in a trendy Perth pub talking sh1t with Granty and make out we're serious about Barrass, meanwhile Sam Power

Sam Power

Age

41

Ht

190cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.7

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.0

4star

No current season stats available

D

7.8

2star

K

3.8

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.6

4star

is using a slick PowerPoint presentation down the road to McGovern/Edwards/any tall Eagles KPD, and his demonic stare compels them all to simultaneously request a trade to us, having already stitched up the Logue/Lobb double whammy.

We will be swimming in so many WA talls next year, Barrass will then be compelled to request a mid-year 2023 trade to us due to extreme FOMO anxiety on his part.

Dogs playing it beautifully - and when that all comes to pass, you know the headline at the end of this year's trade period will still be "Dodoro wins again" (after he trades for a couple of C-graders).

Bookmark it - the whole lot.

 

[manutd/dogs]

No amount of BF mail would make me believe that we are any chance in hell of getting Barrass. I want to believe, but I don't think it's realistic in any universe. Logue is therefore an absolute no-brainer, but I look forward to him going elsewhere and us chasing pipe dreams before giving up and settling for Liam Jones as we often do.



Very much agree. Also worth noting that Bev's best years have always come when we've had fresh blood going through the midfield. We desperately need an early draft mid in the next two years.

 

[footscray1973]

View attachment 1480289

If Grant and Power get Barrass over the line, they should be the new Australian members of the Marvel Universe!

 

[Norm De Guerre]

It could be Pareidolia or a sign.

My toast this morning...

 

[Hobdog]

It's a fair question. The countering argument is to say that the systems will only change when the coaches have more confidence in the defensive capabilities of the backmen. Then it becomes a chicken and egg situation.

For me it’s the elements of the plan that just seem flawed irrespective of personnel. The situations where teams score the easiest of goals over the back or transition the ball with such ease it leads to text book goals.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Hobdog]

Agreed. Whoever come up with it should be waterboarded. Seriously, it's the most boneheaded strategy in my 33 years following this club and that includes the Macca/Rohde era.

Comical at times


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Doggies_13]

I’d be hesitant using any future first round picks in this draft period.

We’ve used all our draft credit on JUH and Darcy the previous two seasons. If we use this year’s and next on key defenders/Lobb, it’ll be 4 years without bringing in any top end midfield talent.

If we’re not careful, we could find ourselves in a similar position in 4-5 years that we are in now. Except it’ll be a weak midfield when all our top end talent are on their way out.

Next year needs to be midfield focused IMO. Apart from Smith, we don’t have a lot coming through.

Much easier to draft and trade mids and mids also mature and reach a top level quicker than key position players so not as big a deal. Although if Dunkley leaves we will need to look to replace him can’t have smith as the only upcoming mid

 

[doggies ftw]

I think something that gets missed in this discussion is that "team defence" doesn't happen in a vacuum. Offence and defence are spoken about as separate, but in reality they are enmeshed in a tug of war dynamic. If you struggle to score, one thing you can do is play more aggressively, which has ramifications for your defence. If you struggle to defend, you can play more conservatively - but that harms your ability to generate scoring opportunities.

After round 1 I posted a table showing our standing relative to other teams for both points for and points against, to highlight where we have stood on this tug of war under Beveridge. With one round to go, I'll re-post the table with 2022 added:

	Points For​	Points Against​
2015	4th​	7th​
2016	12th​	3rd​
2017	15th​	8th​
2018	15th​	13th​
2019	3rd​	13th​
2020	6th​	10th​
2021	2nd​	4th​
2022	5th​	11th​

*Note: green = clearly the better phase; yellow = mildly better phase

Under Beveridge we have fluctuated between struggling to score and struggling to defend. In 2015 we played balls to the wall football that consistently killed us defensively. As a result, we focused more heavily on defence in the years thereafter, which hurt our ability to score considerably. We won the premiership in 2016 because our forward line 'clicked' at the right time, which allowed us to score despite relatively conservative off-ball defence.

After that, though, our forward line could not replicate its good form. We moved away from defence-first football in 2019 in order to accommodate this and find other avenues to goal, and we haven't deviated from this since. 2021 aside, we have struggled to find the right balance - but with Bruce, Naughton, Keath, English and our mids firing on full cylinders, we could play very aggressive football and not get hurt too often defensively.

This year we haven't been as lucky. Between Bruce's injury, Keath's form, English's inconsistency due to injury and our mids being a bit down, we haven't been as reliable offensively. While we're still scoring at a high rate, it's taking really aggressive football to do so - which is exposing us defensively.

My point is that people sometimes ignore this, and focus too much on (1) fixing one of these phases (e.g. defence) by targeting that phase specifically (i.e. by getting new defenders); and (2) criticising the coaches for being too aggressive. In reality, there are reasons why we have gone down this path (which, realistically, point to us overestimating our capabilities this season - which is partly due to injury/form) and it is possible to improve your defence by improving your offence - which allows you to play less aggressively.

This is why the target of Lobb makes so much sense. A greater marking presence in the forward line, combined with more rest for English and more consistent tap work as a result, will enable us to focus more on the defensive phase of the game, irrespective of who is down there in 2023.

We’re such a weird team to place though as I don’t think we score freely or move the ball aggressively at all, you can hardly say we’re smooth or clinical offensively - yet we do put large scores on the board -

but then it makes you wonder, what are our scores for/against top 8 and bottom 8 this year? I could be wrong but gut feel is the vast majority of those scores have come against bottom teams - it seems we score heavily against poor teams because our midfield just runs wild and through sheer weight of numbers we put these big scores on the board.

But once we’re somewhat matched in the midfield, gut feel is we struggle to score at all - usually our ball movement is super stale, hug the boundary kick down the line type shit, and our forward line is clogged.

Point being I don’t believe we have a good offensive or defensive system currently - despite being high in points for category. I definitely don’t think our offensive system is good enough for us to leak defensively as bad as we do - take 2015 for example as you mentioned we played such free flowing high scoring football, I think you could definitely say we were clinical offensively so you could accept us being easy to be scored against out the back, yet we still didn’t leak as bad as we do this year?

A lot of those cracks also are papered over by some individual brilliance ie Naughty being our FF who must create more goals from genuinely nothing than any other player in the comp - and a really strong midfield who works on a weight of numbers basis and also hits the scoreboard very strongly.

Last year was the one year we’ve found it both offensively/defensively yet I think that was mostly based on the fact that our midfield dominated - it was the best midfield year we’ve had. Which in turn led to higher scores from a decent forward structure that actually worked with Naughty, Bruce & Timmy at times - and protected our defensive system which was still poor.

 

[immortalmike]

does Dunkley's contract status matter that much when the team he requests will be well down the draft order (i.e he cant just walk there)?

Absolutely it does. We see time and time again that players who are out of contract go for unders. He may not be able to get to his preferred destination but will we risk losing him for nothing if he cracks the shits when we don't get a deal done?

And that's all assuming he definitely won't be going to North.

 

[flipper83]

Whats Hunter done?

I think something that gets missed in this discussion is that "team defence" doesn't happen in a vacuum. Offence and defence are spoken about as separate, but in reality they are enmeshed in a tug of war dynamic. If you struggle to score, one thing you can do is play more aggressively, which has ramifications for your defence. If you struggle to defend, you can play more conservatively - but that harms your ability to generate scoring opportunities.

After round 1 I posted a table showing our standing relative to other teams for both points for and points against, to highlight where we have stood on this tug of war under Beveridge. With one round to go, I'll re-post the table with 2022 added:

	Points For​	Points Against​
2015	4th​	7th​
2016	12th​	3rd​
2017	15th​	8th​
2018	15th​	13th​
2019	3rd​	13th​
2020	6th​	10th​
2021	2nd​	4th​
2022	5th​	11th​

*Note: green = clearly the better phase; yellow = mildly better phase

Under Beveridge we have fluctuated between struggling to score and struggling to defend. In 2015 we played balls to the wall football that consistently killed us defensively. As a result, we focused more heavily on defence in the years thereafter, which hurt our ability to score considerably. We won the premiership in 2016 because our forward line 'clicked' at the right time, which allowed us to score despite relatively conservative off-ball defence.

After that, though, our forward line could not replicate its good form. We moved away from defence-first football in 2019 in order to accommodate this and find other avenues to goal, and we haven't deviated from this since. 2021 aside, we have struggled to find the right balance - but with Bruce, Naughton, Keath, English and our mids firing on full cylinders, we could play very aggressive football and not get hurt too often defensively.

This year we haven't been as lucky. Between Bruce's injury, Keath's form, English's inconsistency due to injury and our mids being a bit down, we haven't been as reliable offensively. While we're still scoring at a high rate, it's taking really aggressive football to do so - which is exposing us defensively.

My point is that people sometimes ignore this, and focus too much on (1) fixing one of these phases (e.g. defence) by targeting that phase specifically (i.e. by getting new defenders); and (2) criticising the coaches for being too aggressive. In reality, there are reasons why we have gone down this path (which, realistically, point to us overestimating our capabilities this season - which is partly due to injury/form) and it is possible to improve your defence by improving your offence - which allows you to play less aggressively.

This is why the target of Lobb makes so much sense. A greater marking presence in the forward line, combined with more rest for English and more consistent tap work as a result, will enable us to focus more on the defensive phase of the game, irrespective of who is down there in 2023.

I get what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree with it but Geelong are 3rd for points for and 3rd for points against so teams don't necessarily have to sacrifice one for the other.

I think, as others have mentioned, our defensive press is too high. It worked for us when the game was more congested but now it's too easy for teams to get out the back and score in transition.

The good teams seem to be able to shut down the opposition defensively then score on the rebound.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I get what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree with it but Geelong are 3rd for points for and 3rd for points against so teams don't necessarily have to sacrifice one for the other.

I think, as others have mentioned, our defensive press is too high. It worked for us when the game was more congested but now it's too easy for teams to get out the back and score in transition.

The good teams seem to be able to shut down the opposition defensively then score on the rebound.

Geelong's back 6 and front 6 are playing better football than ours which allows them to better even out in both fields - just like we did last year. My point is that right now our defence is too weak to play aggressively and our offence is too weak to play conservatively. There are multiple ways to address that though.

 

[grassman75]

Rowe is just an upgrade on McNeil

But i'm all for banter so getting him is a pissa

I am hoping that it means Grant has identified our areas of weakness and is prioritising them for Power to chase, rather than Bevo requesting another small mid with poor skills from Footscray.

We will get one of those anyway

 

[VitalDread]

While driving home

I noticed a tall man standing outside the cafe

Tom Barrass

37

Tom Barrass

Age

28

Ht

197cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

8.8

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

6.1

5star

T

0.9

3star

MG

158.5

3star

D

10.1

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

2.1

2star

M

5.6

5star

T

0.3

1star

MG

139.6

2star

D

11.4

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

0.4

3star

MG

160.0

3star

to dogs confirmed

 

[footscray1973]

While driving home

I noticed a tall man standing outside the cafe

Tom Barrass to dogs confirmed

I saw him sneaking into VUWO earlier. I said "hey, aren't you Tom Barrass?!"
He replied "nah, I'm....um...ah...Tom Barrassi
Ron is my dad, he told me to meet him in some cafe."

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I saw him sneaking into VUWO earlier. I said "hey, aren't you Tom Barrass?!"
He replied "nah, I'm....um...ah...Tom Barrassi
Ron is my dad, he told me to meet him in some cafe."

Ron Barrassi as first assistant 2023 confirmed.

 

[Mofra]

I think our midfield is a tad over-rated. We can beat up the poor sides but struggle against powerful running, breakaway teams, such as Melbourne with Oliver and Petrucca. He lack the gut running wingers what the best teams have as well.

I agree - which is why I'd be all over Bergman if he does actually want to come back to Vic.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Much easier to draft and trade mids and mids also mature and reach a top level quicker than key position players so not as big a deal. Although if Dunkley leaves we will need to look to replace him can’t have smith as the only upcoming mid

Any old mid, yeah for sure. But putting together a 10 year midfield group capable of contending only using later picks and trades is difficult. Particularly when your club isn’t the best at attracting top end talent.

Hawks were forced to do that and it didn’t turn out too well for them. And they had the draw of a big club and the games all time greatest coach.

If we spend next years first as well as this years on key position players, Come 2024 Smith will have been the only top end midfield player we’d have drafted in an 8 year period.

Doesn’t matter what club it is, or how good the coach is. It’s not the best list management strategy. The sooner we do something about it, the better.

 

[Mofra]

Watching the Lions game last week, I was really impressed with Payne. I can see why we've chased him in the past.

 

[Doggies7]

I agree - which is why I'd be all over Bergman if he does actually want to come back to Vic.

Yep would love Bergman if he is done with Port, definitely the type of young developing mid / winger we could use and would be a nice addition to our best 22.

 

[dergert]

It's the time of year when Luke Bruest is reportedly open to playing elsewhere.

Has that ship sailed for us?

 

[adogsfan5]

Bruest chat again.

 

[D Mitchell]

It's the time of year when Luke Bruest is reportedly open to playing elsewhere.

Has that ship sailed for us?

Another multiple goal scoring forward to play for the twos ?

 

[ossie_21]

It's the time of year when Luke Bruest is reportedly open to playing elsewhere.

Has that ship sailed for us?

Bruest chat again.

 

[Golden_6]

Another multiple goal scoring forward to play for the twos ?

Still playing fantastic footy but I think the time to acquire him was two years ago. We have much bigger pressing needs.

 

[D Mitchell]

Still playing fantastic footy but I think the time to acquire him was two years ago. We have much bigger pressing needs.

My bloody oath we do, a selection committee to select bloke who can kick goals.