Coach Michael Voss

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El Topo said:
Credit to Cook and co. - no coincidence that the players and coaches all lift when it's clear that stability is more than a buzzword and there's nowhere to hide/ no basis for the usual Carlton self-preservation routine
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Someones /somethings have definitely unified the club. The way it was going was not pretty to say the least.
 
Canyouhearthedrums said:
Serious question - what do people think is required for him to keep his job at seasons end?

For me - we really need to beat a couple of Pies, Port, Saints and Melbourne. IE, if we won 5-6 out of last 8 and knock off, say, Dees and Saints, I’m happy for him to continue. But if we lost all 4 I reckon he remains in the hot seat.
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I think he's safe barring another end of season styled wilt under pressure
 
Earls Smother said:
I'm sorry but you sound like a lawyer trying to plea bargain.

There does not have to be middle ground here. My concession back your way is that Voss should have got the message through quicker - that's his job.

If a lack of defensive intent was identified even in the round 3 and 4 wins, then you'd like to think the message was given, received and acted on before it appears to have been.

The mitigating factors in the time it has taken are 1) fitness levels of some of our guns, and 2) availability of player types more suited to implementing the change.
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3) the structures, especially starting position allowing for appropriate levels of defensive pressure and cohesion between position groups etc.
4) confidence and trust in your team around you.
 

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Leaving the underlying cause out for a moment….does anyone not see that we are now running in numbers more with ball in hand, handpassing to the next runner which allows the last ball carrier to lower eyes and hit up a lead more effectively?

Defenders absolutely hate it when the play is in motion rather than the constant stop start style of play which gives them more time to decide what to do next.

Prior to our last 3 games it was short kick pass sideways/backwards/forwards and the last kicker was basically bombing it long and hoping for H and Charlie to perform miracles.

My hope is we continue building on this new style and hopefully play similar to the way the filth do. With Charlie and H in the forward line we’d absolutely destroy teams with a faster style of play.
 
Accidental genius said:
Someones /somethings have definitely unified the club. The way it was going was not pretty to say the least.
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A lot of that seemed to be unfounded media speculation though, especially given our sad history of going through coaches quicker than the Road Runner zooming past Wily E E Coyote !!!
 
It may prove to be another false dawn, but I just have this strange feeling that we might look back on the recent horrible 6 week patch as the making of this group. Yes, there was instability at board level and a lot of gossip, but none of it was ever substantiated and the messaging from the players and Voss never changed. Everyone's been singing from the same hymn book and it's the first time in recent Carlton history where I can confidently say that. This feels a lot more real and sustainable than the winning moments under Malthouse, Bolton, Teague ever did.
 
The Fremantle win was a powerhouse win. As supporters we have learnt not to trust the team at all so you watch and think impending doom is coming at any turn of the game. Whether you want to go back 20 years, 10 years, 5 years or one year, our club has been unreliable on field and having us jump at shadows.

Regardless of Voss or the players, we will probably just watch our talented team play some great games now there is no expectation. When it is a matter of do we make the 8 or miss the 8 and that specific game in question, god knows what they throw up at that time.
 
This discussion would lose like 90% of its heat if there wasn't all this implicit blame lurking behind each position.

"Hey, something's changed, I think it's the players --"

"SEE I TOLD YOU THE PLAYERS WERE AT FAULT AND ALSO MAYBE LIST MANAGEMENT OR SELECTION THEY'VE WASTED THE SEASON FINALLY THEY'VE PULLED THEIR FINGERS OUT NONE OF THIS IS ON THE GAME PLAN I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG PS DOW."

"Actually I think the game plan might have changed a bit too --"

"TOLD YOU SO IT'S ALL ON THE COACHES WTF WERE THEY DOING THEY'VE WASTED THE SEASON FINALLY THEY'VE GOT THEIR ACT TOGETHER STILL MIGHT NEED TO SACK THEM ANYWAY THE PLAYERS HAVE BEEN LET DOWN I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG PS DOW."

"Hmm, now I think about it it's hard to judge, it all happens behind closed doors, truth is it's usually a combination of things and we'll probably never know for sure how much either way."

(both sides) "DEATH TO THE PEACEMAKER."
 
My Hat said:
This discussion would lose like 90% of its heat if there wasn't all this implicit blame lurking behind each position.

"Hey, something's changed, I think it's the players --"

"SEE I TOLD YOU THE PLAYERS WERE AT FAULT AND ALSO MAYBE LIST MANAGEMENT OR SELECTION THEY'VE WASTED THE SEASON FINALLY THEY'VE PULLED THEIR FINGERS OUT NONE OF THIS IS ON THE GAME PLAN I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG PS DOW."

"Actually I think the game plan might have changed a bit too --"

"TOLD YOU SO IT'S ALL ON THE COACHES WTF WERE THEY DOING THEY'VE WASTED THE SEASON FINALLY THEY'VE GOT THEIR ACT TOGETHER STILL MIGHT NEED TO SACK THEM ANYWAY THE PLAYERS HAVE BEEN LET DOWN I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG PS DOW."

"Hmm, now I think about it it's hard to judge, it all happens behind closed doors, truth is it's usually a combination of things and we'll probably never know for sure how much either way."

(both sides) "DEATH TO THE PEACEMAKER."
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You are right but no one really wants a draw as you eluded to.

When the season goes **** up we don't want to be placated by something akin to 'it is the vibe that went wrong'. No one wants to leave it as a bit of column A and a bit of column B. Some want to pin the hard blame on the players and others on the coach.

When we look over at the Pies, most are jealous or respectful of some of their player's individual form/ability Pendles/Sidebottom/Daicos/Daicos, and others marvel at what Macrae has done as the one person accountable for the whole package. So over there it is a bit of column A and a bit of column B. Carlton 3 weeks ago represented the opposite of the Pies but it amounts to the same thing. We had some very key players out of form and an accountable coach who struggled to right the ship.
 

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The Old Dark Navy's said:
Binns and Dow have performed in the twos all year. Binns is still waiting and Dow got a couple of sub gigs. Fogarty was emergency a few times before he got a shot. Meanwhile we endured poor form from Fish all year, dropped him and brought him back again. We endured Lewis Young for too long before giving Kemp a run, and even then Kemp as dropped again before being brought back for a solid block. Same with Cincotta.

It's not necessarily about who was available and who wasn't. It was just as much as trying something rather than persevering with players who were terribly out of form.

Some players have to really perform to keep their spot, others keep their spot on reputation. That's my point.
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Dinns and Bow aren't keeping the ball inside 50.

Would like them to get a game this year but not for Martin, Fog or Cuners on current form.
 
Cripps really struggled in rounds 11/12/13 and then wasnt great vs Pies and doggies to just identify a spread of games.

We know he is a good player (he has carried us many a time) but cant he be dropped to help give him some relief and gain form in the VFL. Cripps is like Greg Williams to some degree. If he isnt on he is a terrible liability defensively due to slowness. Of those 5 rounds either he couldn't find the ball, or was clanger city.

Why cant the coach use in form VFL players to give Cripps a chop out. Why does it have to be losing face so we are wedded to playing Cripps regardless of any performance indicator. Port have shown this with their captain.

Why couldn't Cerra take the lead as the in form inside mid/attacking mid player, and then promote any of fogarty or dow for 1-2 games before Cripps returns. Cerra, Dochery, Kennedy, Hewett and dow/fog/Carroll need to be able to cope at some stage in a season.

For Carlton, I think the club has to learn as a whole that a 100% fit Dow/Fog is better than a 60% slow/injured Cripps.
 
I think the improvement has mainly been around confidence lifting, prime movers being fit and over niggles and getting scoreboard reward for their efforts.

To claim we changed the game plan totally would be also claiming that it happened at exactly quarter time of the GC game, as the first quarter was the same as the previous 2 months.

You could see the confidence/intensity/belief all return as soon as we started to dominate clearances and centre bounces and got some scoreboard reward. Everything flowed from there; as the players were getting “nourishment”.

Intensity, effort and self preservation took hold previously as it was like banging our heads against a brick wall for 6-8 goals a game; when you get no reward for effort, you drop off.

In terms of changes; it’s been a focus to target players in better positions and get more players involved. No more 3-4 guys with 30+ and our small and medium forward getting 3-7 touches a game.

Martin has been more involved than he has been in games since 2020. Cuningham too, often the types of players we have you forget are out there for a quarter or two.

I think there were things we were trying to change in previous weeks, but we were in a rut and it took a while to click. And often when it rains it pours.

Overall I do think we over corrected being defensive this year, but if what we have seen the last 3 weeks holds it looks like we can have the best of both worlds, a side that can attack and kick decent scores and solid defensively. If this was first half of last year, at least 2 of the 3 games we have played recently would of resulted in swings from us leading by 40-50 to just holding on to win.
 
JustOneTime said:
Cripps really struggled in rounds 11/12/13 and then wasnt great vs Pies and doggies to just identify a spread of games.

We know he is a good player (he has carried us many a time) but cant he be dropped to help give him some relief and gain form in the VFL. Cripps is like Greg Williams to some degree. If he isnt on he is a terrible liability defensively due to slowness. Of those 5 rounds either he couldn't find the ball, or was clanger city.

Why cant the coach use in form VFL players to give Cripps a chop out. Why does it have to be losing face so we are wedded to playing Cripps regardless of any performance indicator. Port have shown this with their captain.

Why couldn't Cerra take the lead as the in form inside mid/attacking mid player, and then promote any of fogarty or dow for 1-2 games before Cripps returns. Cerra, Dochery, Kennedy, Hewett and dow/fog/Carroll need to be able to cope at some stage in a season.

For Carlton, I think the club has to learn as a whole that a 100% fit Dow/Fog is better than a 60% slow/injured Cripps.
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Well we can’t prove what would of happened if we left Cripps out. My guess is the side was playing so poorly we’d have lost all those games still, possibly by more.

No one was playing well in the midfield at that time aside from Cerra.
 
luke livingston seagull said:
It may prove to be another false dawn, but I just have this strange feeling that we might look back on the recent horrible 6 week patch as the making of this group. Yes, there was instability at board level and a lot of gossip, but none of it was ever substantiated and the messaging from the players and Voss never changed. Everyone's been singing from the same hymn book and it's the first time in recent Carlton history where I can confidently say that. This feels a lot more real and sustainable than the winning moments under Malthouse, Bolton, Teague ever did.
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I think it’s just a reminder we aren’t owed any success and to enjoy whenever we are winning.

It’s a bloody tough competition, 18 and soon to be 19 sides, flags are more hard to win than ever.

All you can do is aim to be the best club you can be on and off the field and get in positions consistently to contend, like Collingwood, Geelong and Swans have done regularly this century.

It’s entirely possible we won’t win a flag this decade, I’d say on a list of probabilities it’s likely we won’t. Funnily enough I am ok with that, all or nothing thinking won’t do anyone any good I don’t think.

We can still be successful and keep building the club back to where we want to be. It’s not like we must win a flag with current group or we all shoot ourselves.

Went a bit off topic, just wanted to get a bit more perspective to where I think we are at and how I now look at things.
 
Blue1980 said:
I think it’s just a reminder we aren’t owed any success and to enjoy whenever we are winning.

It’s a bloody tough competition, 18 and soon to be 19 sides, flags are more hard to win than ever.

All you can do is aim to be the best club you can be on and off the field and get in positions consistently to contend, like Collingwood, Geelong and Swans have done regularly this century.

It’s entirely possible we won’t win a flag this decade, I’d say on a list of probabilities it’s likely we won’t. Funnily enough I am ok with that, all or nothing thinking won’t do anyone any good I don’t think.

We can still be successful and keep building the club back to where we want to be. It’s not like we must win a flag with current group or we all shoot ourselves.

Went a bit off topic, just wanted to get a bit more perspective to where I think we are at and how I now look at things.
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Agree re: flag this decade, they're bloody hard to win as you say.

What I think is a non-negotiable is competitiveness and finals for a multi-year period, and I'd be pretty disappointed if they didn't give top 4 a shake at some stage before 2030. Failing to make top 8 at all in that time would be a categorical and spectacular failure imo - and I wouldn't put it past us lol
 
Win less record and supposed issues with the game plan aside, I haven't felt this conformable/assured of a senior coach we have had at Carlton since Parko.

There is something about Voss that has always resonated he is our guy for the long haul.

His mentor Leigh Matthews, struggled in his first couple of years as Collingwood coach too.

I honestly believe he is our next Premiership coach and with Vossy we are going somewhere special (even if we fall just short of making finals this year)

Cookie and the stability he has brought to our footy club has been a God send as well.
 
Jacob weitering did an interview with SEN this morning I always find his content as open and truthful as any footballer doing interviews --

Have a listen makes all the guessing going on and this thread redundant ..
 

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Coach Michael Voss

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