List Mgmt. 2015 Trade/Draft/FA - SuperMegaUltraThread

[DanWCE]

Yeah think he would be a good addition mate beautiful kick and would be gettable with our cap space and simmo link surely his name has to be on the whiteboard

I heard they wrote it up there in permanent marker they thought it was such a good idea

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

Has anyone heard what type of draft class this year's will be? Good on mids, talls? Average on everything?

Lots of mids and not very deep with big guys atm but a few more of the KPPs will start making them selves known by seasons end

 

[bodazoka]

How many of them were acquired via trade?

I just wanted to make the point that one player could make a big difference and if that trade opened up it could be worth it. FWIW unless we get extremely lucky with someone wanting to come home I don't believe we will be able to trade in that type of player and will need to go to the draft for him.

In saying that there seems to be a number of quality players out there who are not contracted at this early stage in the season.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I just wanted to make the point that one player could make a big difference and if that trade opened up it could be worth it.

I know what point you were making.

But, in making that point, you also highlight how unlikely it is for such a player to be acquired via trade. And that's the issue.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to point out that a star midfielder would improve our side. That goes without saying. The question is how we get that kind of player.

FWIW unless we get extremely lucky with someone wanting to come home I don't believe we will be able to trade in that type of player and will need to go to the draft for him.

There you go.

In saying that there seems to be a number of quality players out there who are not contracted at this early stage in the season.

Really? Who?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Do you have enough faith in WC's recruiting staff to trade a known high quality in LeCras for a stab at the draft in the picks that you've indicated ?

A known high quality with 2-3 years left.

I feel like this board gets really amped up to trade aggressively immediately following a loss. But then, when the initial emotion subsides and the reality of what 'trading aggressively' would mean dawns on people, a more conservative approach takes hold again. People put their pitchforks away pretty quick when forced to think about what we would have to give up to trade hard.

It's like: 'Rebuild! Rebuild! But no way can we trade LeCras.'

If we seriously decided to rebuild then surely the 29-year-old medium forward who still has some trade value gets put on the table.

If people can't stomach that, then so be it. But people should then accept that progress is going to be slow. People shouldn't expect the recruiting staff to somehow lure a top-liner if they're not allowed to put anything of value on the table.

 

[DanWCE]

A known high quality with 2-3 years left.

That really doesnt answer the question. He is saying all well and good trading Lecca for a first rounder in the draft, but on history, how much faith have you got in us converting the draft pick into the grade A mid we need?

2014 draft is showing promise, prior to that it hasnt been a great avenue for us to unearth talent

 

[Sweet Jesus]

That really doesnt answer the question. He is saying all well and good trading Lecca for a first rounder in the draft, but on history, how much faith have you got in us converting the draft pick into the grade A mid we need?

There are no guarantees, obviously. There never are. That said, Mackenzie, Shuey, Darling, Lycett and Selwood were all acquired with picks between 18 and 29.

Some of our first-round efforts haven't been particularly glorious either – Masten and Sheppard, for example. Does that mean we wouldn't trade LeCras for a first-rounder either? Should we just forget about the draft altogether because we've had some misses in the recent past?

Taking all that into account, the question is whether trading LeCras for a late first-rounder/early second-rounder is worth it. Given LeCras's age, I think it is.

Besides, no one said we had to use that pick. We could package it up as part of a bigger trade for a readymade player if that opportunity arises.

2014 draft is showing promise, prior to that it hasnt been a great avenue for us to unearth talent

So should we eschew the draft from now on?

How do you reckon that will work out?

 

[bodazoka]

Really? Who?

Dangerfield
Sloane
Aish
Coniglio
A couple others from the Giants whose names escape me

Now.. before you ask bear in mind that I have all ready stated the below;

"FWIW unless we get extremely lucky with someone wanting to come home I don't believe we will be able to trade in that type of player and will need to go to the draft for him."

 

[DanWCE]

Dangerfield
Sloane
Aish
Coniglio
A couple others from the Giants whose names escape me

Now.. before you ask bear in mind that I have all ready stated the below;

"FWIW unless we get extremely lucky with someone wanting to come home I don't believe we will be able to trade in that type of player and will need to go to the draft for him."

Treloar
Shiel

 

[DanWCE]

Some of our first-round efforts haven't been particularly glorious either – Masten and Sheppard, for example. Does that mean we wouldn't trade LeCras for a first-rounder either? Should we just forget about the draft altogether because we've had some misses in the recent past?

Taking all that into account, the question is whether trading LeCras for a late first-rounder/early second-rounder is worth it. Given LeCras's age, I think it is

Thats the answer to the question. If we have not fluked the 2014 draft but actually done it well then I agree, something has changed - possibly the influence of Simmo, and in that instance I would be comfortable trading Lecca and having a punt in the first round.

If we maintain our existing pick in the first round should we go more speculative with the traded pick or still best available? Cockatoo was a bit of an unknown but already looks to be a wise choice.

 

[jakethebear]

As a by the by Jamie Cripps signed a new 3 year deal

 

[dajesmac]

Do you have enough faith in WC's recruiting staff to trade a known high quality in LeCras for a stab at the draft in the picks that you've indicated ? I reckon even the best in the business would baulk at being confident at those numbers.

I think what Dargie was arguing was that the relative benefit of us having another crack in the first round of this year is greater than what LeCras would offer us being 28 years old, considering where we are in our premiership cycle.

I'm more of a sentimentalist and prefer not to see one of our favourite sons ruthlessly traded but I can't really fault the logic.

 

[DanWCE]

I think what Dargie was arguing was that the relative benefit of us having another crack in the first round of this year is greater than what LeCras would offer us being 28 years old, considering where we are in our premiership cycle.

I'm more of a sentimentalist and prefer not to see one of our favourite sons ruthlessly traded but I can't really fault the logic.

Lecca is a star, and the missus would be sad, so thats not ideal for household morale, but if we turned the pick into a midfield gun it would be hard to agrue with it.

We have the benefit of hindsight if it doesnt work out and we draft another Sheppard and plonk him on a back flank - much forum rage will ensue and those against the move will sprout "told ya so"

 

[BOND 007]

I'm a bit more confident in our recruiting after this offseason - it's been a while since we've been able to debut multiple draftees in the first few games of the season they were drafted before.

My reasoning here is that at 28/29 years of age, I don't think we're going to be a premiership threat before LeCras has started to fade. He probably has 2 great seasons left (2015 included) and perhaps one or two good seasons after that - assuming we aren't really challenging before 2018 I don't think he'll be part of a premiership side. If that is the case it would be worth trading him even for a lesser player so long as that player was still capable of being best 22 in a premiership team, even if they were not best 10-15.

Simpson's influence in the direction of recruiting last year was noticeable - but the reality is that nailing a pick in the late teens early 20's is more miss than hit. Whilst understanding your logic, the reality is that it would be highly highly unlikely for any club to actively pursue trading a contracted player of LeCras's ability for an unknown that low. I realize that the Saints and Del Santo parted ways for a number in the 20's, but the reality is that was a different situation for both club and player.

Despite many of the posts suggesting as such, players aren't traded like pawns unless there is an underlying issue, certainly ones who have the respect of a club like LeCras has at WC. Additionally the concept that posters have in thinking that "a premiership is 4 years away so lets trade out all players who wont be here in 4 years" is simply erroneous. Youngsters need to learn from those who have experience AND who have talent, and simply filling a side with youngsters talented or not, simply wont work. GC and GWS realized this when they went searching and they had the pick of the best youngsters. GWS are still actively canvassing older more mature players as they realize the age group dynamics that is required.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

If we maintain our existing pick in the first round should we go more speculative with the traded pick or still best available?

Best available, although it's not always clear what that means.

I mean, if you're sitting there at the draft table and it gets to your pick and it's crystal clear that one kid is the 'best available', then surely you pick him.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I think what Dargie was arguing was that the relative benefit of us having another crack in the first round of this year is greater than what LeCras would offer us being 28 years old, considering where we are in our premiership cycle.

I'm more of a sentimentalist and prefer not to see one of our favourite sons ruthlessly traded but I can't really fault the logic.

I'd also be willing to shop Lycett.

 

[Lyyynnnchy]

I'd also be willing to shop Lycett.

Now that's a big call

 

[BOND 007]

I think what Dargie was arguing was that the relative benefit of us having another crack in the first round of this year is greater than what LeCras would offer us being 28 years old, considering where we are in our premiership cycle.

I'm more of a sentimentalist and prefer not to see one of our favourite sons ruthlessly traded but I can't really fault the logic.

I understand what he's saying - I just disagree having a greater understanding of the intangibles. Its not just being a sentimentalist, its also recognizing that players live on the potential of a flag. Selling LeCras does 2 things.

1) It tells the group that no-one is safe - and believe it or not that's not what kids like to hear. They want to feel that the club loves them and rewards them for performance which in turn motivates them to both develop and be loyal. Selling a player who has done all these things means players and their parents start to question the club's whole "family value thing". That's disastrous for a club and their early 20 year old players.
2) It sends a message to the group that its 4-5 years away from a premiership tilt. Whether players admit it or not, they will then question whether they want to be part of a 4-5 year drought. You are unlikely to lose the trash or the older players, but the middle age group starts to question their allegiance and in WC's case that is especially critical for their interstaters like Gaff, Karpany etc

Quick fixes - as many on here are chasing - simply isn't going to happen.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I realize that the Saints and Del Santo parted ways for a number in the 20's, but the reality is that was a different situation for both club and player.

How so?

I'd suggest it's roughly analogous in terms of the circumstances. But didn't Dal Santo leave as a free agent? Was there any trade done at all?

If anything, LeCras is contracted whereas Dal Santo wasn't, which would work in our favour.

Despite many of the posts suggesting as such, players aren't traded like pawns unless there is an underlying issue, certainly ones who have the respect of a club like LeCras has at WC. Additionally the concept that posters have in thinking that "a premiership is 4 years away so lets trade out all players who wont be here in 4 years" is simply erroneous. Youngsters need to learn from those who have experience AND who have talent, and simply filling a side with youngsters talented or not, simply wont work.

LeCras is one player.

He'll be 29 at the end of the year and is not as structurally as important as a KPP.

I think you have to be very conservative to consider him off-limits.

GC and GWS realized this when they went searching and they had the pick of the best youngsters. GWS are still actively canvassing older more mature players as they realize the age group dynamics that is required.

There you go.

LeCras + third rounder to GWS for Coniglio?

 

[Lyyynnnchy]

How so?

LeCras + third rounder to GWS for Coniglio?

Get it done

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I understand what he's saying - I just disagree having a greater understanding of the intangibles.

Ah, the intangibles. OK, then.

1) It tells the group that no-one is safe - and believe it or not that's not what kids like to hear. They want to feel that the club loves them and rewards them for performance which in turn motivates them to both develop and be loyal. Selling a player who has done all these things means players and their parents start to question the club's whole "family value thing". That's disastrous for a club and their early 20 year old players.

Players get traded all the time. And it would ultimately be LeCras's decision.

2) It sends a message to the group that its 4-5 years away from a premiership tilt. Whether players admit it or not, they will then question whether they want to be part of a 4-5 year drought. You are unlikely to lose the trash or the older players, but the middle age group starts to question their allegiance and in WC's case that is especially critical for their interstaters like Gaff, Karpany etc

That overstates it. I think we could challenge before 2020.

But that probably needs to be accompanied by some bold decisions.

Quick fixes - as many on here are chasing - simply isn't going to happen.

How is it a 'quick fix' to improve draft position?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Now that's a big call

If you can get a first-rounder for your second-choice ruckman, you do it. No?

 

[Lyyynnnchy]

If you can get a first-rounder for your second-choice ruckman, you do it. No?

I didn't say I didn't like it, I just said it was a big call. Pick 15 - 18 I wouldn't, 10 - 14 I probably wouldn't but would look at who is likely to be available at those picks, 5 - 9, I'd seriously consider it and would probably go for it, 1-4 sign me up.

Would you play Sinclair as 2nd ruck, draft a youngster in, draft a mature age ruck or trade for say a Griffen?

I would probably trade for Griffen. I think it would be one of those trades where we could get him for next to nothing. He could be our number 1 ruck quite easily with Naitanui then able to roam.

 

[Bleedblueandgold]

So next season we'll have NN, Sinkers and Fmac. Is that enough? Guess we'll get a better deal now since he's signed a new contract.

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

Now that's a big call

I would want to see how McInnes stacks up first. I am not at all keen on having the faith that NicNat will be injury free. History shows he is not.