List Mgmt. 2020 Trade Watch

[JasRulz63]

Current no. of players on the list
Senior list - 34 (2-4 free*)
Rookie (Cat A) - 4 (0-2 free*)
Rookie (Cat B) - 2 (0 free)
Maximum list size of 44. Up to 36-38 senior list, 4-6 category A rookie list and 2 category B rookie list.
* Total of four list spots available, with a minimum of 2 senior list spots needing to be utilised.

List changes
IN: Daniher, Cockatoo, Uosis (R)
OUT: Christensen, Wooller, Allison (R), Skinner (R), Eagles (R), C. Lyons (R), Martin, Witherden, Cox, Hinge.
PROMOTED: Fullarton.
ROOKIED: Birchall, Mathieson, Ballendan.

Current picks
25, 53, 58, 69, 70
(2021 - 1st (MEL), 1st, 3rd (WCE), 3rd, 4th (MEL), 4th (COLL), 5th)

Spoiler: 2020 draft order

Useful links
2020 trade news compendium
List changes, contract status and key dates
2020 draft discussion thread

 

[Mighty Lions]

Good point!

Really? Good point??? He now has interest from a club who finished in finals contention this year and won the grand final in 2018. Enough said about what other clubs think of him in my opinion.

 

[ZoBlitz]

What, stick up for outgoing players that represented our club with pride that have been let go and don't get in on the love fest of incoming players, with many not warranting it?

If you want me to apologise for supporting those players that have been let go, shafted, pushed out despite being contracted, I won't.

No, irrationally rant about players coming in/players going out/players costing too much/not getting enough in trades. Tends to get a bit tedious after 10 years or so of it...

I will ask whether you'd like to apologise for the comments you made about Martin ("one of the softest big men going around in the AFL") at time of trade now though, considering how currently supportive you are of him?

 

[Dalions]

Really? Good point??? He now has interest from a club who finished in finals contention this year and won the grand final in 2018. Enough said about what other clubs think of him in my opinion.

Not enough interest to be willing to take on his full contract or offer up a decent pick?

 

[M Malice]

What, stick up for outgoing players that represented our club with pride that have been let go and don't get in on the love fest of incoming players, with many not warranting it?

If you want me to apologise for supporting those players that have been let go, shafted, pushed out despite being contracted, I won't.

I don't think anyone is asking you to apologise for supporting outgoing players.... all fine to sensibly debate list decisions, IMO it's the over the top reaction to said delistings/trades and the derision of the club and some staff.

Do you agree that Fagan/Noble and co have done a fantastic job at rebuilding our club since coming on board? Or would another 3peat be the only way to change your negative opinion of them and the club in general?

Note- I have disagreed with a few decisions they have made but nothing that I see as being ridiculously bad.

 

[T Rick]

Really? Good point??? He now has interest from a club who finished in finals contention this year and won the grand final in 2018. Enough said about what other clubs think of him in my opinion.

Sorry - I love Witho and this trade week development has taken me by surprise as much as anyone. I have no idea about the background to this like you do but no need to overreact - it was just an observation.

 

[chopperduck]

We would be a much better team if we just kept all the loyal servants of the club. We could fill the team right now with the likes of Keays, Walker, Lester, Redden. Martin is 34 and Big O is clearly our future, but hey let's just keep him around and let clubs target Oscar next year. Witho has been so brilliant on field, we should just gift him games, doesn't matter that we finished top 2 the last 2 years and are trying to push for a flag, this is Witho!!! Don't people understand how popular he was in his first 2 seasons because he was fantasy relevant!?

There is always room for some sentiment in footy, but the good teams make the hard decisions. We haven't pushed these guys out the door, we would have kept both Martin and Witho next year if they wanted to stay. But being up front and telling them hey, you aren't in our best 22 plans next year allows them to further themselves. You can make situations into win/win/win, but unfortunately it means thinking more with your head rather than your heart.

 

[chopperduck]

Think people just need to also accept that the likes of Fagan and Noble aren't perfect, but that doesn't mean they aren't doing a great job. They will get some calls wrong, and perhaps hindsight will show that bringing Birchall in and maybe losing Witho is a mistake. It is easy for people to sit back and make calls off the cut and criticise decisions without actually wearing those shoes and doing that job. How many times do people complain about decisions that are made and turns out the club was right!?

No one is perfect and bad mistakes will be made, but overall our club is doing a fantastic job and i will back them in on every decision they make, even the ones i don't agree with because i know they get things right more often than not. Also because i don't know what the end game plan is, nor how 1 decision impacts 2 3 or 4 other things down the road. I also have next to non of the information they have to make these decisions. Arm chair expert supporters are the worst. Opinions are good for some healthy discussion and even some light hearted banter, but the absolute fact claims that are made around here by some are just crazy.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Not enough interest to be willing to take on his full contract or offer up a decent pick?

Why should they overpay him because of our decision to do so? Maybe they want him but not at an over inflated cost? Is that unreasonable to ask?

 

[SL16]

We could fill the team right now with the likes of Keays, Walker, Lester, Redden.

Thank god we at least kept the best of the group.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

Why should they overpay him because of our decision to do so? Maybe they want him but not at an over inflated cost? Is that unreasonable to ask?

No, but it does suggest they don't rate him as highly as a lot of the posters on this board.

 

[bungalow_bill]

Has he been given a reason why? Is it simply they just don’t see him in their best 22 moving forward? It just seems odd WCE of all teams too. Could understand if he wanted to head back to Victoria etc.

I won’t go full Dylan, but I do share some concerns, if what Mighty Lions is saying is true in that we are effectively pushing him out. He seems to be a popular guy within the club. I hope it doesn’t put anyone else offside.

I also share those same concerns. Time will tell whether or not this is a move that will have a negative effect on our culture

 

[martinson]

I don't agree with what Dylan says but he makes some points worth consideration , it's only his opinion. He's passionate about what he believes rightly or wrongly.

My heart wants to keep Steph but my head totally understands the decision. Witho I've given my opinion on many times and if he was on half what he's on fine . It's not his fault ,the club gave him the contract now they're trying to make the best of what they now must believe was a mistake.

As far as list management goes we've generally got it right. On what I saw of Dainher this year he's well worth the punt seeing we have no key presence up forward ,there's no doubt he was stale on Essendon for some time and wants a new challenge. Cockatoo we're not paying much. He can really play . It's a punt but not a big one based on what he showed in the Ressies this year.

 

[StevoJenkins]

I don't think it was a mistake to get Witho on the contract with the money that he is on, it looks (from my point of view) to be a sign of the times we are in. COVID forcing list sizes and the financial restrictions that have come in could not have been predicted when he signed.

 

[Clarkythelion]

There was also a mention on salary cap cuts from the article:



Seems a very very stupid approach.

It's actually the only way to do it. I explained this somewhere back in the thread. It has to be done on the number of players and can not be done on salary cap or all hell would break loose.

e.g Let's say Brisbane have a close nit group, like Geelong did previously and the players agree to all take a salary cut to meet the AFL target. The Hawks on the other hand decide they have a good medical team, don't get a lot of injuries so they will make the Salary cap target by reducing the overall number of players. In fact they cut deeper than other teams, argue it's a calculated risk and then go hunting for trades. They look at Neale up at Brisbane who has just taken a 10% pay cut and offer him his full salary back to change clubs. In fact they look at every club who is reducing player $ contracts to offer their stars more to move. All clubs have to follow the same process and the one that works in total number of players.

The AFL are saying players have to be cut without a redistribution within the team of the $ saved in salary and the AFL will allow some flexibility this year in the total salary cap knowing some teams had different $ value players, un-contracted they could cut.

 

[Dalions]

Why should they overpay him because of our decision to do so? Maybe they want him but not at an over inflated cost? Is that unreasonable to ask?

I wouldn’t think that a late second rounder would be too much to ask either actually?
Especially if we are topping up his salary.

 

[chopperduck]

I don't think it was a mistake to get Witho on the contract with the money that he is on, it looks (from my point of view) to be a sign of the times we are in. COVID forcing list sizes and the financial restrictions that have come in could not have been predicted when he signed.

Exactly. We signed him only last year, but a few things changed since then, including covid. No matter if you agree with the clubs view that Witho is not best 22, the club would be compounding that mistake with another one by keeping him on the list, not best 22 on big money. Sometimes things change and plans shift, and if you aren't proactive or don't try to fix mistakes that were made, you end up like Collingwood needing to do a fire sale on best 22 players.

 

[Clarkythelion]

Fagan and Nobel make mistakes - well tiny little ones when you look at Buckly and McGuire. Trelor to the Bulldogs if it happens - the pies will pay Trelor $300 per year for the next 5 years. Thats a $1.5 million mistake. I'll take **** and Nobs any time, every time.

 

[chopperduck]

I wouldn’t think that a late second rounder would be too much to ask either actually?
Especially if we are topping up his salary.

Not unreasonable at all. He was originally pick 23 IIRC, late 2nd round is still a roll back despite playing his first 2 seasons. I guess all you can say is i'm sure both clubs are aware of that pick and that possibility and perhaps that just isn't doable for some reason. I'm sure the Eagles have offered Witho a chance to play to give him a reason to want to leave. I don't think we are kicking him out, but i'm sure we see this as a chance to perhaps fix an issue where we have a player we don't see as best 22 on a bigger contract than what they should have being a depth player. Then upto the club to decide on what has more value to us, getting a pick 32 for him next year instead of 50? Or do we take a pick 50 and take the opportunity to clear his cap space next year, and maybe be using that to acquire another player next year that we might have interest in?

This is what i mean by not knowing all the details to make the decisions the club is making, and also not being aware of how 1 thing impacts other things down the line. As fans we aren't privy to all the details, and sometimes from the outside things are going to look like a rip off or make no sense. Sometimes it is some short term pain for some long term pain, and sometimes it is simply fixing a mistake that was made.

 

[chopperduck]

My main focus for today is just can we package our picks up to get a high top 10 pick. We know we are probably only taking 1 pick this year, with Fullerton being upgraded and Coleman being our other 2. Can we sneak up the draft and manage to snag a slider. There are just so many possibilities at the moment in where our 18 and 19 picks can be used by other clubs. Question is can we make it happen.

 

[davemc_lions]

We also signed Archie up last year then offered him around.
I know list managers think ahead although do you think mid 2019 we thought Daniher/Cockatoo be in Lions colours.
Maybe we where in Cockatoo's ears although Daniher had one foot in Sydney

With playing style if you are not great defensively you seem not what we need.
If you look at delistings last few years a few players where it was their weakness gone.
We also got in two HB last year so you can see gaps being filled.
I think people need to think we are in a window now. Is this player going to get us a flag or not.
We do need to blood some young kids as well somehow.

 

[youneverknow22]

Fagan and Noble have taken a huge risk in drafting Adams, Cockatoo, and Daniher. Yes, this could work, but it could equally backfire. Imagine if we are stuck with 3 injured players in a competition with a decreasing list size? What if Witherden ends up tearing it up at the Eagles? What will you all say then? There is also the issue of our salary cap. We were under the assumption that we had a warchest, only for that to be disputed. We now have to get rid of Witherden because we obviously over-payed for Daniher. I'm also afraid that they are biting more off than they can chew. I can't remember the last time a club went so fervently to acquire injured players and i'm afraid that some successes that we have had in our medical department has created an illusion that we can turn any injured player into a best 22, 23 game a year player. I have always been against trading Witherden, and I see drafting these injured players as a risk, but that's my opinion. I won't hate on Noble or Fagan, rather I will back them. But I am aware that this can backfire and I think we should all be aware of that.

I don't think we will know if these decisions are right until about 12 months from now. And i'm sure the club knows that as well.

 

[morsie]

It's actually the only way to do it. I explained this somewhere back in the thread. It has to be done on the number of players and can not be done on salary cap or all hell would break loose.

e.g Let's say Brisbane have a close nit group, like Geelong did previously and the players agree to all take a salary cut to meet the AFL target. The Hawks on the other hand decide they have a good medical team, don't get a lot of injuries so they will make the Salary cap target by reducing the overall number of players. In fact they cut deeper than other teams, argue it's a calculated risk and then go hunting for trades. They look at Neale up at Brisbane who has just taken a 10% pay cut and offer him his full salary back to change clubs. In fact they look at every club who is reducing player $ contracts to offer their stars more to move. All clubs have to follow the same process and the one that works in total number of players.

The AFL are saying players have to be cut without a redistribution within the team of the $ saved in salary and the AFL will allow some flexibility this year in the total salary cap knowing some teams had different $ value players, un-contracted they could cut.

If they have "nits" they are too close.

 

[Section 5]

Sounds like Witho will go to WCE
His salary at the time would have been seen as reasonable. He showed lots of potential and could still fulfil that potential
Just remember the bottom team gets the same or thereabouts salary cap as the top team.
So lots of players overpaid compared to others in the AFL

Witherden to WCE for their future second currently 31 or 35
Lions to pay some salary or Eagles give him a 3 year deal
Something along those lines likely to happen.

 

[chopperduck]

We also signed Archie up last year then offered him around.
I know list managers think ahead although do you think mid 2019 we thought Daniher/Cockatoo be in Lions colours.
Maybe we where in Cockatoo's ears although Daniher had one foot in Sydney

With playing style if you are not great defensively you seem not what we need.
If you look at delistings last few years a few players where it was their weakness gone.
We also got in two HB last year so you can see gaps being filled.
I think people need to think we are in a window now. Is this player going to get us a flag or not.
We do need to blood some young kids as well somehow.

With Archie, i think the other thing people need to remember is that with our sport, unlike overseas sports, the Players need to agree to movements as well. And in a lot of cases, the players themselves look for the opportunities. Archie was borderline out the door, his management would have been advising him to see what interest is around, and perhaps think about a move to extend his career. Once you are cut from a list, it is hard to get back on and this was BEFORE Covid. I think our club does a good job in being honest with players, and also allowing them to leave and making transitions easy for them if they do get a better opportunity. I think this gets overlooked by many with the positive impact this would have with the playing group, knowing that if it is better for you to leave that the club isn't pulling an Essendon or GWS and making it really difficult.

Archie is currently surviving on our list due to simply being required depth. Yes, he isn't much chop, but we have a really good medical team and if everything goes to plan he doesn't even play next season. He would be a lot cheaper than having Martin doing that same job. Good list management is making sure the majority of your money is where it needs to be.. on the field.

I would expect over the next 3 or so years we will lose a few more players like Witho. We are a strong list, and teams will continue to pick around the fringe players to find value, or even target players who are 18-22 in the best 22 and offer more money and a better deal. These gaps that open up, should hopefully then be filled by our younger draftees who have been in the system 2 or 3 years and are ready to step straight in. Despite being an old team, Geelong as done well at introducing youth to their team, and the Tigers have done well at replacing those 18 to fringe players who leave with having ready made replacements ready to go.

This is what we need to emulate.

 

[Jimmy Two Hands]

I'm not 100% on the 'Birchalls keeping Witho out of the side' narrative. In my mind, Birchall replaced the Hodge role, who played alongside Witho for the entirey of the 2019 season.

To me, Witho has been replaced by Ah Chee in the backline and by the sounds of it, now Hinge is ahead of him on the depth chart for the backup of that role. Starce in the Answerth role.