Autopsy 2023 Preliminary Final Blues brave season comes to an end

[Stig O'Hara]

Hahaha classic post delete Stig O'Hara

Off to my secret numb3rs vault it goes.

I am the god of goodness & nicenessess.

All are welcome to share in the circle of the nessnessnessness.

But only the pure of heart.

Only those will pass the test.

 

[Aphrodite]

I am the god of goodness & nicenessess.

All are welcome to share in the circle of the nessnessnessness.

But only the pure of heart.

Only those will pass the test.

Quoted in case deleted

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Quoted in case deleted

Excalibur!!!!

The lady of the lake waits.

& ruler worthy will draw it again.

Triumphant!!

 

[thylacine60]

he's off again..........too much festivities not enough sleep.............

 

[BlueDomain]

As long as they are on the field and not the grandstand.

Carlton have been good at ignoring how other teams have been succeeding for 30 odd years.

Teams are going quicker, we had quick players in form who did a lot of the hard work getting us into finals and we dropped them.

It's debatable as to whether that is good coaching.

I don’t remember off the top of my head, but weren’t Fisher, Dow and a couple of others out of the team when we started winning game mid season. I really liked what Dow and Fisher brought to the team when other key players were injured/suspended, but I believe the team we had put out against Brisbane has proven to be very capable, it just wasn’t to be this time. There are plenty of positives to be taken on build on for next year - we now have a very solid depth, second choice players have shown ability to step in and perform admirably, the team as a whole has shown toughness and n me maturity, etc. The floor is now much higher that it was 12 months ago, plenty of growth still to come from Hollands, Cowan, Binns, Motts, Durdin, Kemp, and others. On to bigger and brighter 2024 and beyond!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Ball movement. Carry the ball quickly, go as direct as possible, get it past the press and into the open space. We were doing that a lot second half of this season. Particularly the game against Port Adelaide. Pretty much most games where Charlie kicked a bag or we kicked a big score. We were opening the forward line up.

That's what happens when you dump all your run and carry players out of the team.

You move the ball slow. No carry just slow boundry play or bombing it into the press. This allows the press to keep falling back until it's in your forward line.

Long story short it's a race between the ball and the opposition's press into your forward line. If the press gets back first it's congested and scoring is unlikely and it's just crash and bash and injuries. If the ball beats the press into the forward 50 then it's open, forwards can just lead into space, just have to hit them, our you go straight at them and they have a one on one. Very likely to score.

Brisbane were running with the ball, that opened their forward line up, it also ran our legs off trying to defend that play and get our press back.

We didn't run with the ball after the first quarter. Which left petrol in Brisbane's tank, because we were easy to defend against, no hard running for them. Which allowed them to stay fresh, run with the ball and open our forward line up.

Teams selection. Too many of our better ball carriers in the stands and not on the field.

Which ball carriers did we leave out? Cuningham ... did he get enough of it to be the difference? He was clearly out of form. Owies isn't a ball carrier. I would have left him in and taken Fogarty out but we're making changes on the fringes there.

Fisher I guess but he's only effective when the rest of the team is winning the pressure game. He has no physical presence. I thought Boyd provided plenty of run and carry.

Other run and carry fringe players were ineffective e.g Cottrell.

We lost our one wood with the clearances. Dow might have helped there but I can see where we worried about his defensive side in a rough and tumble finals campaign.

I think we played to our strengths until our luck and endurance ran out.

 

[Peacock]

There’s no way you can shut a game down against Brisbane at quarter time - we were only 4 goals up.

Even at 3qtr time it’s extremely unlikely to come off.

Our coaching team could use help, new tactical knowledge, but they are as much a reason for us winning our way through a prelim - when nobody thought we could.

Credit where credit is due - we finished 3rd!!!

No chance we miss the eight next year - more likely finish top 4 after H&A.

Yes you can, I watch Collingwood do it every week, they go full on attack mode, then sit back and absorb absorb absorb, this is part of the reason why they always surge in the last quarter because they are still so fresh relative to the opposition. Brisbane's plan was to absorb pressure in the first quarter and then blow us away. Our plan was to go toe to toe with Brisbane for four quarters. When we didn't adjust and go defensive in the second it was game over.

To continue with the autopsy - another thing that is staggering, how do you not have a plan B for Charlie? This is the third final in a row he's done nothing, why not let him get up the ground and have a run around? Something? ANything??

Voss and his coaches are pretty clueless tactically. It was clear to anyone watching footy that Collingwood were doing something different in the back half of 2022 and they almost made a Grand Final on the back of it, but rather than analysing what they were doing and copying it, Voss's answer was to keep using our old game plan when the entire competition had moved on. Our old game plan was one that Collingwood's game plan was designed to destroy. The fact that our coaches didn't understand this is absolutely mind blowing to me. This is why we found ourselves sitting in the bottom 4 after 15 rounds. So yeah some credit for digging ourselves out of a hole, but we shouldn't have been in one to begin with.

People can say it's negative, but this is why I say if we don't shake up our coaching group I can see us missing the 8. If we could switch our entire coaching staff with the entire coaching staff of Collingwood or Geelong I would be jumping out of my skin for the future coming off the back of a prelim, but I don't see it with what's there right now. Is there anyone that would seriously prefer our coaching group over Collingwood or Geelongs? I have absolutely no doubt if every club rated each others coaching group we would be ranked in the bottom quartile. With McQualter missing the Richmond job he is the first we should be getting across, Voss should have no say in it.

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

should have taken some advice from our women posters and gone full navy and white...........

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/detail-in-photo-of-carlton-player-jordan-boyd-infuriates-footy-fans/news-story/7ec02443070372cbe046436af282bee1

Oh, the fragility of some men!

 

[BlueGum]

Yes you can, I watch Collingwood do it every week, they go full on attack mode, then sit back and absorb absorb absorb, this is part of the reason why they always surge in the last quarter because they are still so fresh relative to the opposition. Brisbane's plan was to absorb pressure in the first quarter and then blow us away. Our plan was to go toe to toe with Brisbane for four quarters. When we didn't adjust and go defensive in the second it was game over.

To continue with the autopsy - another thing that is staggering, how do you not have a plan B for Charlie? This is the third final in a row he's done nothing, why not let him get up the ground and have a run around? Something? ANything??

Voss and his coaches are pretty clueless tactically. It was clear to anyone watching footy that Collingwood were doing something different in the back half of 2022 and they almost made a Grand Final on the back of it, but rather than analysing what they were doing and copying it, Voss's answer was to keep using our old game plan when the entire competition had moved on. Our old game plan was one that Collingwood's game plan was designed to destroy. The fact that our coaches didn't understand this is absolutely mind blowing to me. This is why we found ourselves sitting in the bottom 4 after 15 rounds. So yeah some credit for digging ourselves out of a hole, but we shouldn't have been in one to begin with.

People can say it's negative, but this is why I say if we don't shake up our coaching group I can see us missing the 8. If we could switch our entire coaching staff with the entire coaching staff of Collingwood or Geelong I would be jumping out of my skin for the future coming off the back of a prelim, but I don't see it with what's there right now. Is there anyone that would seriously prefer our coaching group over Collingwood or Geelongs? I have absolutely no doubt if every club rated each others coaching group we would be ranked in the bottom quartile. With McQualter missing the Richmond job he is the first we should be getting across, Voss should have no say in it.

Did you watch the game, or does your form of autopsy involve trotting out your ideology? Charlie was up the ground plenty. H was more effective at it.

 

[lily of laguna]

Thread locked for cleanup

Edit: all sorted. Try and debate without sounding like my two kids, please.

Am so!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[btdg]

Yes you can, I watch Collingwood do it every week, they go full on attack mode, then sit back and absorb absorb absorb, this is part of the reason why they always surge in the last quarter because they are still so fresh relative to the opposition. Brisbane's plan was to absorb pressure in the first quarter and then blow us away. Our plan was to go toe to toe with Brisbane for four quarters. When we didn't adjust and go defensive in the second it was game over.

To continue with the autopsy - another thing that is staggering, how do you not have a plan B for Charlie? This is the third final in a row he's done nothing, why not let him get up the ground and have a run around? Something? ANything??

Voss and his coaches are pretty clueless tactically. It was clear to anyone watching footy that Collingwood were doing something different in the back half of 2022 and they almost made a Grand Final on the back of it, but rather than analysing what they were doing and copying it, Voss's answer was to keep using our old game plan when the entire competition had moved on. Our old game plan was one that Collingwood's game plan was designed to destroy. The fact that our coaches didn't understand this is absolutely mind blowing to me. This is why we found ourselves sitting in the bottom 4 after 15 rounds. So yeah some credit for digging ourselves out of a hole, but we shouldn't have been in one to begin with.

People can say it's negative, but this is why I say if we don't shake up our coaching group I can see us missing the 8. If we could switch our entire coaching staff with the entire coaching staff of Collingwood or Geelong I would be jumping out of my skin for the future coming off the back of a prelim, but I don't see it with what's there right now. Is there anyone that would seriously prefer our coaching group over Collingwood or Geelongs? I have absolutely no doubt if every club rated each others coaching group we would be ranked in the bottom quartile. With McQualter missing the Richmond job he is the first we should be getting across, Voss should have no say in it.

Didn't we go into 'full on attack mode', put up a 5 goal lead with the wind, then try to hold on? Brisbane are a really good team, and sliced us open like no one else has. That's why they're playing in a grand final and not us. Tough beat, but they've had 4 years of the same - at the top, the other teams are really, really good, and things like 'a week off and home final' start to really matter.

With Charlie, I thought the biggest change teams made in the finals was ensuring he was double teamed not just close to goal, but having an extra to cover whenever he came up the ground. All 3 opponents really defended that area 60-90m out from goal well, and that's where Charlie has been particularly dangerous. It meant he had to crash an enormous amount of packs and he just seemed to wear out against Melbourne.

I have been critical of Voss and co in the past, and don't think he had a perfect game plan against Brisbane, but then again, they're the best team in the comp, were well rested and playing at home, and we pushed them to the limit and even had a sniff deep in the last quarter (if McKay gets that free kick for a push and brings us within 10 with 6 minutes left... geez the roof would have blown off). But lets also acknowledge that Voss did an incredible job to turn things around, has shown a range of strengths in his work, and in two years has taken us first to our best season in 10 years, and then to our first top 4 finish in more than 20 years. Seems crazy to be laying on the criticism right now?

 

[gbatman]

Which ball carriers did we leave out? Cuningham ... did he get enough of it to be the difference? He was clearly out of form. Owies isn't a ball carrier. I would have left him in and taken Fogarty out but we're making changes on the fringes there.

Fisher I guess but he's only effective when the rest of the team is winning the pressure game. He has no physical presence. I thought Boyd provided plenty of run and carry.

Other run and carry fringe players were ineffective e.g Cottrell.

We lost our one wood with the clearances. Dow might have helped there but I can see where we worried about his defensive side in a rough and tumble finals campaign.

I think we played to our strengths until our luck and endurance ran out.

Last year and this year we ran with 3 running defenders when we could, that way they could go to half back, run their guts out and rest for a bit in the back pocket. Docherty, Saad and Williams. It was very notable when one missed let alone 2 or 3. This year we have added a few more. Boyd coming on. Fisher showed he can get elite numbers, defend and deliver with precision, he was very very good when he came in and very good in big games. The coach not rating that is on him IMO.

GWS, Collingwood and Brisbane have shown how important it is to run hard and fast off the half back line. We got torched by Brisbane's half backs. Maybe Cuningham and Owies were doing more defensively than we thought? That could have been a big part of that.

But we are the team who had no run off half back come finals. We were stagnant. After being so damn good and turning this ball movement problem around, we went right back to the Carlton of the first half of the year. We just so happened to luck and grind ourselves to two wins but we looked exactly the same as we did earlier in the year all finals series.

The footy we played in finals was not the footy that got us into finals. It was not the same team structure. It was very easy footy to defend against.

So what was different?

We finished the season with Saad and Fisher at half back running, running off their man, running both ways, running with the footy, breaking down the oppositions press. Brodie Kemp provided some run and carry as well but come finals he went to a more defensive role, not rotating with the half back flankers and was then dropped. Cincotta was providing some nice run and carry up the ground but come finals he was clearly cooked. Rumoured to be sore and an out against Brisbane he played and could hardly move. Has looked sore and has struggled all finals. Bad call considering our options were good. Shouldn't be playing IMO because he's not two way running and he wasn't.

We based our second half game around speed around the ball and run off the half back line. MODERN FOOTBALL. And it worked. Then we changed that for finals based on an obsession with contested ball.

Comed finals we we choked. We went in for the first time in a long time with only one running half back. We dumped the in form Fisher for another tall and our ball movement went to shit. We had something that was working and we changed it, it wasn't broke but for some reason we thought it needed fixing.

Why when we have had 3-4 running defenders all second half of the season and beating everyone do we go with one or two? Cincotta was cooked, Kemp was struggling a bit as well, Fisher out, only played Boyd against Brisbane but probably should have come back earlier. As soon as the opposition realised Saad was the only top line rebounding defender in our backline they shut him down or at least attempted to.

This whole finals is different, finals is harder tougher thing is BULLSHIT. The rules don't change. The game doesn't change. The speed and intensity is higher early and things wind back. The finals series, the footy that has been played has been open and fast paced and has had a lot of run and carry, it hasn't been a congested rolling maul. That footy is dead, it doesn't exist anymore.

The Fisher has no physical presence, he will be a liability bullshit is a weak excuse. He had a run on the half back line and we never saw any of it. There is plenty of room for a little defender who can get 25-30+ possessions, break down oppositions defence and run and carry and setup our forwards to score goal. Even if Fisher had 2 or 3 goals kicked on him, he's likely to setup 3-5 goals and generate the kind of play that makes the opposition run hard, hence taking the petrol out of their tanks and opening the game up for us. In the month Fisher played back for us he wasn't beaten, didn't have goals kicked on him, this myth that he's not big enough and tough enough is just that, a myth because it didn't happen. we dropped him because we choked and value big tough guys who win contested ball over run. Whether we agree on Fisher or not, what we needed most in finals was what Fisher brought to the team.

You can count Dow in. To say he would not perform in finals is rubbish. St Kilda game, they are a finals side, both teams were playing for their life that night, it was practically a final. Melbourne game was the same and we were too good for them that night. Things don't change that much in finals, that is another stupid myth. The early part of the game is guaranteed high intensity and that's about it. Our midfield only had Walsh who could run with the ball and chase the man. Cerra came back slow and unfit, he was ordinary, came back a one way runner. Hewett and Cripps are genuine one way contested ball only mids, which is fine until you add another mid of the same sort as Sub which was insane. At least when we were getting torched in the middle of the ground by Neale and Rayner, we could have made a sub and brought Dow in and tried a counter attack. Again. Our coach for some insane reason does not value leg speed in a season where leg speed is king.

All our forwards were ineffective and it wasn't on them. Our ball movement has been terrible again. If we are going to select backlines like that and go with a slow as treacle midfield there is no point in having McKay, Curnow, Motlop etc. Paying big money for gun forwards and then not picking a team that can feed them is a waste of time and money.

We won our first two finals on luck and being just good enough to hang in there. Played like rubbish, exposed for pace both times, ball movement was rubbish, we looked exactly liked we did earlier in the year. Should have lost both of those games. We gave up a 30 point lead to lose comfortably to the Lions who made us look like witches hats. Come finals, we dropped form players, removed a lot of the run from around and behind the footy and went in with a team structure that we had not been winning games with. Make no mistake we choked.

You know who I reckon would agree with me? Charlie Curnow.

I don’t remember off the top of my head, but weren’t Fisher, Dow and a couple of others out of the team when we started winning game mid season. I really liked what Dow and Fisher brought to the team when other key players were injured/suspended, but I believe the team we had put out against Brisbane has proven to be very capable, it just wasn’t to be this time. There are plenty of positives to be taken on build on for next year - we now have a very solid depth, second choice players have shown ability to step in and perform admirably, the team as a whole has shown toughness and n me maturity, etc. The floor is now much higher that it was 12 months ago, plenty of growth still to come from Hollands, Cowan, Binns, Motts, Durdin, Kemp, and others. On to bigger and brighter 2024 and beyond!

Dow in and out as Sub. Fisher being "reprogrammed" in the VFL as a defender. We also had Cerra fit, who wasn't close to it in finals. Boyd and Cincotta were fit and generating half back run and Saad was in red hot form. Kemp was also providing a fair bit of run. Boyd came back too late in finals. Cincotta was cooked but we kept playing him and Kemp was out as well. The only player running two ways and carrying the ball in our finals series was Saad and Boyd for a little bit against Brisbane. Thing is we had something that was working and we changed it. We still had a running half back line with good numbers of runners and enough pace in the middle.

Half backs that can generate run and carry and get a lot of the ball are worth their weight in gold. We've seen them win norm smiths. Most coaches rate them and view them as must haves. They are. You can't win finals without a good hard and fast running half back line.

IMO you need to have 3 running defenders. Two main stars and someone to rotate with.

They only played in the first place because of injuries, the upgrades are right here in Cerra and Boyd

That shouldn't have been the case though. That was poor selection through the year. We kept making dumb decisions like playing Ed ahead of Dow etc.

That's the other thing. Cerra came back and looked like he hadn't played all year. He couldn't run, didn't play any near as well as what Dow had been playing. I know generally Cerra is the better player but for finals he was a downgrade. Couldn't run. Probably didn't know he was going to be that unfit. Had the time again, would have brought Cerra back via the forward line, could have been the forward mid we are lacking.

Boyd should have replaced Cincotta the moment he started to wane. Cincotta played brilliantly mid season but trailed off and by finals couldn't run. He looked super sore against Brisbane.

It's a pretty simple question we need to be asking as fans. Where was our half back line run? Why did we not pick three runners in defence?

Boyd should have come in in the GWS game. He is an upgrade on Cincotta. Fisher stays. Saad has more freedom and we go into finals without the ball movement issues we have had and our forward kick goals.

Only gotta look at the output from our forwards to see that that WE brought the problem back for finals. WE couldn't run the ball from clearances. WE couldn't run both ways on our half back line, WE couldn't run and carry the ball through the half back line and the mid field. That was on US for not selecting a team that could play this way. After having a team that could for half a season that did it against the best of the best and beat them.

On another note. Carlton supporters have fallen from grace big time. A loss like this 25 years ago, we would be ropable. Now we are kind of celebrating it and making excuses for it. My god what has happened to us! In another 3 years I want this to change team!

 

[windows1]

For a list built for 8 years in its premiership window the only pass mark is a flag.

Cripps is 29 before next season and his best footy is probably behind him. Doc 30 in a few weeks. Curnow 27 before next season. How can anyone be satisfied coming up empty handed when the core group is about to begin a decline in the careers? The coach and fans are just in a feel good daze for no reason. They have won nothing. Last year and this year were 2 big chances for a flag and they have not even come close in the end. The worst thing is there just wasn’t the desperation to make it count. Probably 2 more chances at it with what looks like being stuck with voss for this crucial period of time.

I’ve read some entitled shit in my time and written plenty myself. But this takes the cake.

No teams dominate any more and never will again. The draft and salary cap are in full swing. As a result teams ALL have strengths and ALL have weaknesses. We have a team of contested and key position strengths. There is necessarily a weakness then given the competition leveling mechanisms. Its pace. You can’t just invent it from thin air. Despite that weakness we almost got to a grand final. Had we had a better run of injuries through the early and mid part of the year we would have finished top 4 and then who knows.

The commentary in here would imply we missed by miles OR we should have won by miles.

It’s all so easy in hindsight. Frankly only Jim (perhaps to his credit) continued to argue against Pitto getting a game but after the job he did against Melb it was impossible to drop him. We had to bring in McKay (who did well). Hewett final one was good so he got two more. Unfortunately I thought he was back to average but it’s all 6 of one half a dozen of the other stuff. We played a mobile and fast backline and it worked against Brisbane. Cincotta didn’t look right at all and perhaps was THE blunder of the weekend selection wise. But I get it. I wouldn’t trust Fisher against their smalls either. And Kemp was terrible last week.

None of that makes me feel entitled or ripped off. They have been emotionally on edge for 6 months. Under enormous strain. No matter what anyone thinks the physiological impacts of that (on cortisol, sleep, recovery etc) over a long period are A LOT. The data is IN. So many experiments have been conducted now on the effect of stress on performance. And I can hear the “oh but they are professionals”. **** off. They are mostly 25 year olds who are still figuring it all out. They haven’t had these experiences before. We should not be so lame and blasé in our analysis. Their effort to resist all that and work through all that WAY ****EN OUTWEIGHS any small judgment differences we may have in selection. Like BY A MILE.

Put yourself under stress for 6 months and see how you go. Half the side hasn’t known whether they had a contract next year. AKA A JOB.

I am so incredibly proud of the way they came through it. And to see all these young guys get contract extensions (even Dow being offered a plus one) is superb.

I dearly hope all the negative posting just ****EN ENDS. Wake the **** up. Put it all in perspective.

Jesus I have been as critical as any. I wanted Dow in for Hewett for a while. So what. I wanted Russell gone. But he got them back on the park. Well done. Tick. I was unsure about Voss. But he adapted. He looks like a statesman now. Tick.

But zoom OUT. We made the prelim. First time in decades. And we are STILL disgruntled????

In the words of Robbie Williams:

I can’t believe it.

 

[windows1]

I am not in a "feel good daze for no reason." You don't speak for me.
I am proud of how the club turned the season around.
They won 2 finals. That is huge for this playing group and is not nothing. The club knows what they have to do to improve.

I could respond further but will not waste my energy.

Go Blues

Same. I want ****ing more. I have started preseason myself. I hope they take one week off then start training. I hope they come back fitter and faster and stronger than ever.

And I want to thank them from the bottom of my heart for this year.

They lifted my soul.

They made my heart sing.

Weitering to Hollands to Doc to Acres.

 

[windows1]

I get the feeling that there's a bunch of people who have been silently waiting for the team to fall to find their voice again, what a sad and miserable existence.

In a personal sense, I have had a year that I'd rather forget. I'm thankful to the Club for giving me at least something positive to focus on at times and yes, it's only football but it certainly helps.

Thanks also to some of the people here for helping as well, happy to be part of this community. Can't wait to see what we can do in 2024.

I wish you all good health and happiness and look forward to sharing the next part of the journey with you, even those who sadly can't allow themselves to enjoy the good moments. I hope things get better for you too.

Gab sorry to hear you’ve had a rough year.

On the flip side…..

You have my training reports to look forward to. They will be a treat. As good as Melb V Carlton.

 

[El Topo]

Boyd should have replaced Cincotta the moment he started to wane. Cincotta played brilliantly mid season but trailed off and by finals couldn't run. He looked super sore against Brisbane.

It's a pretty simple question we need to be asking as fans. Where was our half back line run? Why did we not pick three runners in defence?

Boyd should have come in in the GWS game. He is an upgrade on Cincotta. Fisher stays. Saad has more freedom and we go into finals without the ball movement issues we have had and our forward kick goals.

I think that your assessments of Fisher and Dow's form are (at best) revisionist but am in furious agreement with the above. Boyd should have been playing as soon as eligible, and replacing a running player with Marchbank was a reversion to what we were doing in the first half of the year.

That's not to say that Marchy didn't come good in the last final, but we needed more attacking players around him if that mix was going to work.

 

[gab213]

Gab sorry to hear you’ve had a rough year.

On the flip side…..

You have my training reports to look forward to. They will be a treat. As good as Melb V Carlton.

Thanks windows, look forward to reading them. Bring on 2024, good times ahead.

 

[Arr0w]

Good on Boyd showing flair in more ways than one.

Some people must still be stuck wearing animal skins and lighting fires in their caves

 

[TheReal99prelim]

Our CEO and president have to really take care over the next year or two - I’m sure that Cook will recall his time at Geelong when they made the preliminary final in 2004 and semis in 2005 and the next year in 2006 had a real stinker.

Clearly I don’t want us to have a stinker in 2024 but if we do then it’s not sack the coach time and Cookie should know.

I could not agree more.

Told my mates a couple of days after the Melb win that we need to be careful we aren't defined by that crazy win against Melbourne and dine on it all summer...or longer even!!!.

I was lambasted by said mates, told to smell the roses and enjoy the 2023 ride

I then had a go at them and told them that the two were not mutually exclusive!!!!

So yes, I agree that our mindset has to be on the extra "hard flowering work" that needs to be done by everyone from the bootstudder to the President if we are to build on the gains of this year.

This may be where Voss earns his money. People say that tactically, he's not the best (I really don't know), but he is a competitive ANIMAL...can't see Voss being anything but churning up at not being there on the big day.

I thought his presser was excellent after the game. He balanced pride and acknowledgement for what had been achieved with a "we have lots to work on over the summer" reality check

So yes...the entire organisation needs to be on high alert for any signs of complacency

Go Blues 2024

 

[jimsta10]

A fair effort from the boys in the first qtr. I think they had a bit of "stage fright" in the second which led to a downhill momentum slide.

I little disappointed in Charlie's efforts in the past 3 games tbh. He seemed disinterested in parts of the game while Harry busted his gut.

I felt as though we made too many mistakes, but credit to the Lions..so clean and will punish you the other way.

Where we were to now has been an eventful and exciting journey, and cannot wait for 2024.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Last year and this year we ran with 3 running defenders when we could, that way they could go to half back, run their guts out and rest for a bit in the back pocket. Docherty, Saad and Williams. It was very notable when one missed let alone 2 or 3. This year we have added a few more. Boyd coming on. Fisher showed he can get elite numbers, defend and deliver with precision, he was very very good when he came in and very good in big games. The coach not rating that is on him IMO.

GWS, Collingwood and Brisbane have shown how important it is to run hard and fast off the half back line. We got torched by Brisbane's half backs. Maybe Cuningham and Owies were doing more defensively than we thought? That could have been a big part of that.

But we are the team who had no run off half back come finals. We were stagnant. After being so damn good and turning this ball movement problem around, we went right back to the Carlton of the first half of the year. We just so happened to luck and grind ourselves to two wins but we looked exactly the same as we did earlier in the year all finals series.

The footy we played in finals was not the footy that got us into finals. It was not the same team structure. It was very easy footy to defend against.

So what was different?

We finished the season with Saad and Fisher at half back running, running off their man, running both ways, running with the footy, breaking down the oppositions press. Brodie Kemp provided some run and carry as well but come finals he went to a more defensive role, not rotating with the half back flankers and was then dropped. Cincotta was providing some nice run and carry up the ground but come finals he was clearly cooked. Rumoured to be sore and an out against Brisbane he played and could hardly move. Has looked sore and has struggled all finals. Bad call considering our options were good. Shouldn't be playing IMO because he's not two way running and he wasn't.

We based our second half game around speed around the ball and run off the half back line. MODERN FOOTBALL. And it worked. Then we changed that for finals based on an obsession with contested ball.

Comed finals we we choked. We went in for the first time in a long time with only one running half back. We dumped the in form Fisher for another tall and our ball movement went to s**t. We had something that was working and we changed it, it wasn't broke but for some reason we thought it needed fixing.

Why when we have had 3-4 running defenders all second half of the season and beating everyone do we go with one or two? Cincotta was cooked, Kemp was struggling a bit as well, Fisher out, only played Boyd against Brisbane but probably should have come back earlier. As soon as the opposition realised Saad was the only top line rebounding defender in our backline they shut him down or at least attempted to.

This whole finals is different, finals is harder tougher thing is BULLSHIT. The rules don't change. The game doesn't change. The speed and intensity is higher early and things wind back. The finals series, the footy that has been played has been open and fast paced and has had a lot of run and carry, it hasn't been a congested rolling maul. That footy is dead, it doesn't exist anymore.

The Fisher has no physical presence, he will be a liability bullshit is a weak excuse. He had a run on the half back line and we never saw any of it. There is plenty of room for a little defender who can get 25-30+ possessions, break down oppositions defence and run and carry and setup our forwards to score goal. Even if Fisher had 2 or 3 goals kicked on him, he's likely to setup 3-5 goals and generate the kind of play that makes the opposition run hard, hence taking the petrol out of their tanks and opening the game up for us. In the month Fisher played back for us he wasn't beaten, didn't have goals kicked on him, this myth that he's not big enough and tough enough is just that, a myth because it didn't happen. we dropped him because we choked and value big tough guys who win contested ball over run. Whether we agree on Fisher or not, what we needed most in finals was what Fisher brought to the team.

You can count Dow in. To say he would not perform in finals is rubbish. St Kilda game, they are a finals side, both teams were playing for their life that night, it was practically a final. Melbourne game was the same and we were too good for them that night. Things don't change that much in finals, that is another stupid myth. The early part of the game is guaranteed high intensity and that's about it. Our midfield only had Walsh who could run with the ball and chase the man. Cerra came back slow and unfit, he was ordinary, came back a one way runner. Hewett and Cripps are genuine one way contested ball only mids, which is fine until you add another mid of the same sort as Sub which was insane. At least when we were getting torched in the middle of the ground by Neale and Rayner, we could have made a sub and brought Dow in and tried a counter attack. Again. Our coach for some insane reason does not value leg speed in a season where leg speed is king.

All our forwards were ineffective and it wasn't on them. Our ball movement has been terrible again. If we are going to select backlines like that and go with a slow as treacle midfield there is no point in having McKay, Curnow, Motlop etc. Paying big money for gun forwards and then not picking a team that can feed them is a waste of time and money.

We won our first two finals on luck and being just good enough to hang in there. Played like rubbish, exposed for pace both times, ball movement was rubbish, we looked exactly liked we did earlier in the year. Should have lost both of those games. We gave up a 30 point lead to lose comfortably to the Lions who made us look like witches hats. Come finals, we dropped form players, removed a lot of the run from around and behind the footy and went in with a team structure that we had not been winning games with. Make no mistake we choked.

You know who I reckon would agree with me? Charlie Curnow.



Dow in and out as Sub. Fisher being "reprogrammed" in the VFL as a defender. We also had Cerra fit, who wasn't close to it in finals. Boyd and Cincotta were fit and generating half back run and Saad was in red hot form. Kemp was also providing a fair bit of run. Boyd came back too late in finals. Cincotta was cooked but we kept playing him and Kemp was out as well. The only player running two ways and carrying the ball in our finals series was Saad and Boyd for a little bit against Brisbane. Thing is we had something that was working and we changed it. We still had a running half back line with good numbers of runners and enough pace in the middle.

Half backs that can generate run and carry and get a lot of the ball are worth their weight in gold. We've seen them win norm smiths. Most coaches rate them and view them as must haves. They are. You can't win finals without a good hard and fast running half back line.

IMO you need to have 3 running defenders. Two main stars and someone to rotate with.


That shouldn't have been the case though. That was poor selection through the year. We kept making dumb decisions like playing Ed ahead of Dow etc.

That's the other thing. Cerra came back and looked like he hadn't played all year. He couldn't run, didn't play any near as well as what Dow had been playing. I know generally Cerra is the better player but for finals he was a downgrade. Couldn't run. Probably didn't know he was going to be that unfit. Had the time again, would have brought Cerra back via the forward line, could have been the forward mid we are lacking.

Boyd should have replaced Cincotta the moment he started to wane. Cincotta played brilliantly mid season but trailed off and by finals couldn't run. He looked super sore against Brisbane.

It's a pretty simple question we need to be asking as fans. Where was our half back line run? Why did we not pick three runners in defence?

Boyd should have come in in the GWS game. He is an upgrade on Cincotta. Fisher stays. Saad has more freedom and we go into finals without the ball movement issues we have had and our forward kick goals.

Only gotta look at the output from our forwards to see that that WE brought the problem back for finals. WE couldn't run the ball from clearances. WE couldn't run both ways on our half back line, WE couldn't run and carry the ball through the half back line and the mid field. That was on US for not selecting a team that could play this way. After having a team that could for half a season that did it against the best of the best and beat them.

On another note. Carlton supporters have fallen from grace big time. A loss like this 25 years ago, we would be ropable. Now we are kind of celebrating it and making excuses for it. My god what has happened to us! In another 3 years I want this to change team!

Fisher likely to set up 3-5 goals? I don't see it. He also can't tackle and he isn't quick enough to cover as a sweeper. He can't lock down on an opponent so you're essentially asking for a spot to be taken by a floater who provides a link up role. Who is he coming in for and who covers his man in that scenario?

I note that Marchbank, Weitering and McGovern all played well. I'm assuming Newman and Saad are safe for you. So Fisher for Cincotta? Who is the small lockdown?

We won quite a few games without Fisher in the side. A game where we just weren't allowed to play our way is not evidence that he is the answer IMO.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Looking back at it I had said it earlier in the year we haven't got small fwds or half fwds that impose a goal kicking threat and require attention allowing the opposition to move off them while we already give them an extra behind the ball by playing one up the ground ..
It's up to list management or growth of our current smalls to improve --

This is the beauty of Brisbane and possibly Adelaide

 

[AndyLucimitis]

I’m as big on the importance of age profile as anyone but this is way too pessimistic. We didn’t field a player over 30 last night - I’m not sure how the window closes in 3 seasons? Cripps and Doch might only have 3-4 years of their prime left but everyone else has 6-7 (or hasn’t even entered it!!).

This is a list built for 5-6 years of sustained success imo. And that doesn’t even consider the possible phasing Cripps and Doch out and continuing with Walsh and Cerra leading the way.

I agree - I actually think our list 'demographic' is pretty good. I would suggest any Top 4 side with a sustained run of success will have older players ready to finish over the next few years.

If we say Doc and Cripps are the most likely I think its actually one area - the midfield - that we have good cover for.

With the better experience and leadership we now have it is also easier to bring in younger players without destroying them, e.g. a Holland can come in and play 10-15 games on without having to carry the midfield like a Dow had to.

 

[Sector 7G]

We haven't lost a final at home for 22 years.

I think the small ground really hurt the team. We ran 20kms less for the game compared with our other finals, despite having the 5 top distance runners on the ground. At the G we would spread and it would take the some of the speed out of the Lions legs. Players like Rayner( who ran a 8min 2km at the combine) would get exposed but at the Gabba he is able to get around and still have the power to burst out of congestion. We couldn't link up as there was no space as their quicker players closed it down.

Was always going to be tough interstate where Brisbane are 5 goals better than away. Hopefully the Lions don't get exposed on the G on Saturday.

That said I do think we need to look at how we defended with our zone. Backed off way too much and let them have too many uncontested marks.

 

[bourbons]

Haven't watched it again yet, viewing at the time it just looked as simple as us running out of puff after the 1st Q (although I was a few sherbets deep and a few distractions with people over so it might not have been quite that simple). That was some of the most frenetic pressure we've brought all year, amazing to watch, just couldn't sustain it and Brisbane with the week off eventually got in gear and did what they were expected to do.

Gotta figure out a way to get Curnow some better looks at it in the heat of finals footy, easier said than done I guess. The small forward dilemma is far from solved too, Motlop may well be it in time but too inconsistent currently.

Lets just hope everyone is switched on and ready right from round 1 next year. Gotta get that top 4 finish and home prelim.