Fantasy 2024 - Empire League - Discussion

[shiny_on_top]

My understanding is the main reason for the change was due to draft order. Using potential Max PF will eliminate this. Regardless if they submit players on byes etc.

In regards to an easy win, this may happen but not as much as not having a team submitted at all and that team just receiving 10 points less than the opponent.

Most owners seem active in this league anyway so I don’t think it’s as big of an issue anymore.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Yeah I'm fine with max pf for draft position. That's what we use in my sleeper leagues.

However on the second point shiny makes, if we super charged the offense I feel it would likely take away from the unpredictable nature of the league which I like. You see some upsets this morning because of defense.

 

[Exe Gesis]

If max pot PF can be used to determine waiver order and as a tiebreaker in standings then sure.

I'd have to think about lineups carried forward and bye starters allowed, no bye players on taxi.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

If max pot PF can be used to determine waiver order and as a tiebreaker in standings then sure.

I'd have to think about lineups carried forward and bye starters allowed, no bye players on taxi.

Not saying this is exactly what we should do here but this is what we do in some of our sleeper leagues just for some ideas:

1. Max PF (points scored by your starters and bench) only used for draft order of non playoff teams.
2. PF (points scored by your starters) used to determine tiebreaker for playoffs and playoff seedings of teams with the same record.
3. Elimination order determines playoff teams draft order with record THEN PF as tie breakers for teams eliminated the same week with the same record.
4. Consolation playoff bracket for teams who didnt make playoffs with the winner getting an end of second round compo pick. (this has nothing to do with the actual draft order, just a bonus for the losers)
5. FAAB bidding on free agents.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Not saying this is exactly what we should do here but this is what we do in some of our sleeper leagues just for some ideas:

1. Max PF (points scored by your starters and bench) only used for draft order of non playoff teams.
2. PF (points scored by your starters) used to determine tiebreaker for playoffs and playoff seedings of teams with the same record.
3. Elimination order determines playoff teams draft order with record THEN PF as tie breakers for teams eliminated the same week with the same record.
4. Consolation playoff bracket for teams who didnt make playoffs with the winner getting an end of second round compo pick. (this has nothing to do with the actual draft order, just a bonus for the losers)
5. FAAB bidding on free agents.

Ill use the first two in terms of Empire.

I will re-do the Referendum questions tonight

 

[Remon Tea]

Not a fan of changing amount of starters. Max PF is a good idea. Love the idea of FAAB. Current waiver system is unnecessarily confusing.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Ill use the first two in terms of Empire.

I will re-do the Referendum questions tonight

Plenty of time, changes wouldnt take place til 2026 basically. Just giving some ideas now while we are talking about it for people to think over in the offseason.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Not a fan of changing amount of starters. Max PF is a good idea. Love the idea of FAAB. Current waiver system is unnecessarily confusing.

Dont think we'll do FAAB on waivers in this league. We already have a non-blind FA auction bidding stage in our preseason.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Just to clarify Exe Gesis when myself and Shiny are saying Max PF I believe we are both (at least I am) talking about PP (potential points?) in the power rank tab on the site, not Max PF meaning your highest score of the year.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Just to clarify Exe Gesis when myself and Shiny are saying Max PF I believe we are both (at least I am) talking about PP (potential points?) in the power rank tab on the site, not Max PF meaning your highest score of the year.

Yep i understand.
I like the idea.

Will update referendum tonight, to be voted for start of 2025 season, meaning the draft order stuff wont take effect till 2026, but a lot of the other general seedings and waivers order will be a go in 2025.

Just finishing up work and once home...

 

[Exe Gesis]

-----Updated-----

EMPIRE PROPOSAL 2025

There are two components to vote for.
Bullet Points 1-9 are Part One
Bullet Point 10 is Part Two
Vote a Y/N for part one and Y/N for part two

====Part One====

1) Lineups carry forward and bye players can be started
2) Bye players not allowed on taxi
3) No commish lineup submission but owners can always ask commish to submit for them if work/life impedes
4) Draft order for non-playoff teams ordered by worst "Potential Points"
5) Draft order for playoff teams ordered by elimination point then worse WL then worst "Potential Points"
6) Weekly waivers ordered by worst "Points For"
7) Division standings seeded by WL...Div Rec then Conf Rec then most "Potential Points"
8) Playoff spots seeded by WL...Conf Rec (common games) then most "Potential Points"
9) No more All-Play prize. Just League Champion and Runner-Up

====Part Two====

10) Increase RWT position starters from 5 to 6 and decrease IDP starters from 8 to 7. Idea is to have a balance of 7 on offense, 7 on defense, and 2 on STs

====Analysis for Part One====

Potential Points calculates the optimum score a team would've scored if they started their highest scoring players for that week. The column that displays Potential Points is a season-to-date tally. Potential Points is not total points of starters and bench added together -- so teams can't game it by having a smaller roster.

Potential Points is the most used method across most fantasy sites for determining the draft order of non-playoff teams as it eliminates any benefit from tanking or inactivity or partially set lineups.

It also more accurately separates the truly bad teams from the good teams -- as we often see bad rosters fluke wins by outscoring that week's 16th-13th worst scorer, and see good rosters unluckily lose games to that week's 1st-4th top scorer.

Using Potential Points therefore means we don't have to have lineups empty out at the end of each week, nor do we have to fuss about bye or injured players on the starting team, or requiring commish to set lineups. Commish can always still if a team owner requests such due to work/life.

Waivers can't be auto-ordered by Potential Points, so it'll have to be Points For. Currently All-Play is ordering waivers, which is essentially Points For anyway, so might as well use it then. Removing the whole All-Play factor here across the league -- including prize.

====Analysis Part Two====

There's nothing wrong as such with the current make-up of the starting squad (6 offense, 8 defense, 2 STs). However, for the sake of having a balance between offense/defense is the motivation here. One up, one down, isn't a drastic change imo, but actually possibly fairer, as both sides of the ball will be equal now. Of course, up to vote, personal preference.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Yes and No for me. Dont think there is anything wrong with how the starter structure is currently, league is tight where anyone can win any week and the championship any given year, enjoy the unpredictability of the league just like the NFL IRL.

 

[00Stinger]

Yes and no for me

Dont mess with the lineups imo

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Why can't potential points determine seeding & playoff spots. I've brought this up before..you meet non div sides just once and that could be during a bad bye week for your team. That's pretty unlucky.

I'm all for GG stepping in to prevent tanking ..no idea if it happens here but it's happened on other comps and it was quite shit.

A no for part two

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Why can't potential points determine seeding & playoff spots.

What do you mean? You mean as the tiebreaker for Win/Loss? I think "Points For" should be the tiebreaker for playoffs if we are going to use a points metric over division and conference record, not potential points, reward the people who actually set the best lineup/scoring starters throughout the season.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Why can't potential points determine seeding & playoff spots. I've brought this up before..you meet non div sides just once and that could be during a bad bye week for your team. That's pretty unlucky.

I'm all for GG stepping in to prevent tanking ..no idea if it happens here but it's happened on other comps and it was quite shit.

A no for part two

We're still a h2h league. The vagaries of winning games with a low score and losing games with a high score, part of the "charm".

So div winners and make up of playoff teams is gonna be WL record. Tie breakers to seed and these teams and determine WC spots will then be conf rec before pot points

 

[Exe Gesis]

What do you mean? You mean as the tiebreaker for Win/Loss? I think "Points For" should be the tiebreaker for playoffs if we are going to use a points metric over division and conference record, not potential points, reward the people who actually set the best lineup/scoring starters throughout the season.

Actually it currently is already this. We first seed and break ties by WL, then div (inside div) then conf (outside div) then points for

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

We're still a h2h league. The vagaries of winning games with a low score and losing games with a high score, part of the "charm".

So div winners and make up of playoff teams is gonna be WL record. Tie breakers to seed and these teams and determine WC spots will then be conf rec before pot points

No not the same thing at all. If you play someone once and that week you have 10 players on byes and they have on, how is that reflective of any reality? Then that team that beats you wins playoff tiebreak based on that week!

 

[Exe Gesis]

No not the same thing at all. If you play someone once and that week you have 10 players on byes and they have on, how is that reflective of any reality? Then that team that beats you wins playoff tiebreak based on that week!

You could say the same about any game of the season.

 

[Exe Gesis]

It's a dynasty league, you have a large roster to take in byes and injuries. Just like injuries is "no real excuse" for NFL teams because all teams have them and its how you navigate thru the ups and downs. Hence, too, the challenge of being an NFL or fantasy GM having to make chicken salad out of chicken.

Every game of the season you are faced with lineup issues....players out of form, injured, on byes, or even hard against the cap and cant make many waivers.

And again, it's a h2h league. So WL is ultimately the point of it all no matter the vagaries.

It's just when it comes to tuebreakers for say WC spot across divisions in a conference, then theres nothing wrong with that as a first tiebreaker....common games. Most of the time the conf rec is canceled out and it has to go to the next tie breaker anyway, which is already points for.

No method is strictly perfect anyway. Theres always some argument against something.

Take this season. Playoff picture end of week 13....

In the National Reich, the last WC spot will come down to two 6-7 teams. In the same division. Stinger and Remon Tea. Div rec is tied, goes to conf rec, Stinger is 5-4, Remon 4-5. Common games. Remon would miss out tho he has a better PF. If they were both tied conf rec then Remon would get in.

Its weighted last because it will definitely break any remaining ties, and common games is certainly a fair 2nd tie breaker in that situation or if the two teams were in different divisions in the same conf.

"They only played the other div once"...but...."Yeah but you got to play all the shitter teams in your division twice".

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Yeah, its luck of the draw. If you've got a tonne of players on bye one week it means you wont other weeks when other people do. And bye weeks for NFL teams change every year. Its not like any one person is being punished every year in empire and its unfair, swings and roundabouts.

 

[Exe Gesis]

TheGreatBarryB look i understand your point .... Just have PF break all ties first.

Why? Because it's more reflective who the better team was. Right? Then why do we even bother having h2h and WL recs in the first place? Because you know there are many examples where a shit team managed to make the playoffs, or win it all, that had a very lucky 8-6 rec say tho they had the 13th best PF all season, just somehow managed to win games because the other team had their worst score of the season that week.

Point there is....if you want PF because it's fairer and more reflective of who the better team was, then why is it ok that a shit PF team won the div based on WL? Have a Points league only then.

Thats the charm of a h2h league. So, when it comes to tuebreakers, naturally div/conf rec should/would be used first, because ties often happen that way. So as a final breaker ok then PF.

Another way to look at it. The bengals are 4-8 despite losing multiple games whilst scoring 38 each week. Meanwhile, say, the Steelers on 8-4 are scraping in with 17-14 wins.

Wins are wins. The NFL is not a PF league, but theyll use PF in one of their latter tiebreakers too. We're doing the same. H2h league, div/conf rec break ties initially, PF lastly as it will break any lingering ties.

"Yeah but in the NFL they can control how nany points you score every week"....Can they really? The D theyre up against has a lot to say about that....also their own injuries to star players on offense, backup QB, backup WRs etc. We all have to navigate the ups and downs

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

TheGreatBarryB look i understand your point .... Just have PF break all ties first.

Why? Because it's more reflective who the better team was. Right? Then why do we even bother having h2h and WL recs in the first place? Because you know there are many examples where a shit team managed to make the playoffs, or win it all, that had a very lucky 8-6 rec say tho they had the 13th best PF all season, just somehow managed to win games because the other team had their worst score of the season that week.

Point there is....if you want PF because it's fairer and more reflective of who the better team was, then why is it ok that a shit PF team won the div based on WL? Have a Points league only then.

Thats the charm of a h2h league. So, when it comes to tuebreakers, naturally div/conf rec should/would be used first, because ties often happen that way. So as a final breaker ok then PF.

Another way to look at it. The bengals are 4-8 despite losing multiple games whilst scoring 38 each week. Meanwhile, say, the Steelers on 8-4 are scraping in with 17-14 wins.

Wins are wins. The NFL is not a PF league, but theyll use PF in one of their latter tiebreakers too. We're doing the same. H2h league, div/conf rec break ties initially, PF lastly as it will break any lingering ties.

"Yeah but in the NFL they can control how nany points you score every week"....Can they really? The D theyre up against has a lot to say about that....also their own injuries to star players on offense, backup QB, backup WRs etc. We all have to navigate the ups and downs

No I get the WL importance. If you’re comparing two sides in same div that face off twice then fine on h2h as it balances off over two games.

My suggestion respects the h2h still. If you finish a win ahead …fine.

All I’m saying if two non div teams finish on same wins we consider something other than h2h.

 

[Exe Gesis]

No I get the WL importance. If you’re comparing two sides in same div that face off twice then fine on h2h as it balances off over two games.

My suggestion respects the h2h still. If you finish a win ahead …fine.

All I’m saying if two non div teams finish on same wins we consider something other than h2h.

I dont use h2h anymore on those non-div teams vying for a WC spot.

Its actually already...

Division seedings....div rec > h2h > conf rec > pf

Non-Div WC...conf rec > pf

So we are in agreement then?

 

[Exe Gesis]

To be accurate...

Division seedings are currently the image below. Whereas I already made a change a year or two ago that non-div wc tiebreakers would be broken by common games (conf rec) then PF