40 and 2

[LandOfTheGiants]

That may be so, but it's only one factor that you have considered to the exclusion of all else.

In any case, the discussion isn't on team possessions, but individual possessions.

And it's empirically shown that there is no disadvantage in terms of accruing massive numbers of possessions by being in a Bottom 4 side.

In fact it may even be an advantage.

4 of the top 10 possession getters from last year were from Bottom 4 sides, so you have 40% of the players from only 22% of the competition in the top 10 possession getters in the AFL. Players from Bottom 4 teams are therefore over represented in terms of this stat, suggesting it's easier to get more ball in a bottom 4 side.

Have you ever given a second thought to the notion that the extremely good players will still find the football regardless of who they play for?

Your assumption that playing in a poor side is advantageous in gathering possessions borders on fraudulence and ineptitude.

 

[NetworkNerd]

Yea i'm sure that was the case. So you abused Ablett jnr the whole time he played for Geelong and booed him whenever he went near the ball?


So if one of your children quit their job at the opportunity at a greater salary, you'd repeat the same vitriol you speak about the greatest midfielder ever to play our game.

You need to grow up a fraction old mate.

I agree with this. Ablett had achieved great things with Geelong. Who is to judge him if he wanted to set himself up for the future. I just changed jobs and got a 50%+ payrise and more interesting work. If you feel there is nothing left to achieve where you work, then money becomes a more important factor.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Have you ever given a second thought to the notion that the extremely good players will still find the football regardless of who they play for?

I agree with that, doesn't explain the fact that Bottom 4 side players are overrepresented in finding the footy.

Your assumption that playing in a poor side is advantageous in gathering possessions borders on fraudulence and ineptitude.

I'm not making an assumption at all, so save your perjoratives for yourself. You assumed that they were disadvantaged by being in a poor side, I just looked at the empirical evidence which rubbishes your assumption.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Whenever I read a post starting with the word 'so', I know some faulty logic is coming up.

It just doesn't follow at all - AAs weren't and aren't handed out on raw possession numbers.

LOL at you criticising others logic. Possessions are a measure of performance as is all aust selection. Therefore the fact that Hodge made it in a weak side suggests that his performance was considerably better because he was able to perform well in a weak side much the same as you claim about Ablett and his performances in a weak side which funnily enough also netted AA for him last year .

 

[Hodgepodge]

LOL at you criticising others logic. Possessions are a measure of performance as is all aust selection.

Possessions are ONE measure of performance, but performance isn't the argument here at all. This thread is a statistical one, read the title.

Therefore the fact that Hodge made it in a weak side suggests that his performance was considerably better because he was able to perform well in a weak side

Again, you're mixing up performance with possession. It's a simple error, and self-explanatory.

Hodge averaged just as many possessions last year as he did the year before. However the year before he was voted the 2nd best player in the comp by the players and coaches, was BnF, and was AA captain. Last year he didn't even get in the AA side.

You really have to get over this error of equating possessions with performance.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Possessions are ONE measure of performance, but performance isn't the argument here at all. This thread is a statistical one, read the title.



Again, you're mixing up performance with possession. It's a simple error, and self-explanatory.

LOL possessions are considered on of the two major categories of output in the AFL. Having said that according to you players like Bartel don't need to have high possession output or Champion Data scores in order to be a dominant player in the league as they are only one measure of performance according to you .

Also I would dare say you would be performing to the extreme as an AFL footballer if you averaged 40 and 2 for the season and therefore the two topics are interrelated when you discuss them in the context you have.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

That may be so, but it's only one factor that you have considered to the exclusion of all else.

In any case, the discussion isn't on team possessions, but individual possessions.

And it's empirically shown that there is no disadvantage in terms of accruing massive numbers of possessions by being in a Bottom 4 side.

In fact it may even be an advantage.

4 of the top 10 possession getters from last year were from Bottom 4 sides, so you have 40% of the players from only 22% of the competition in the top 10 possession getters in the AFL. Players from Bottom 4 teams are therefore over represented in terms of this stat, suggesting it's easier to get more ball in a bottom 4 side.

Name them. Or just list the top 10.

 

[LandOfTheGiants]

I agree with that, doesn't explain the fact that Bottom 4 side players are overrepresented in finding the footy.



I'm not making an assumption at all, so save your perjoratives for yourself. You assumed that they were disadvantaged by being in a poor side, I just looked at the empirical evidence which rubbishes your assumption.

Your empirical evidence was in fact circumstantial as your data only constituted a minority in regards to a 20% differential and doesn't conclusively prove your theory.

They most certaintly are being disadvantaged by being in a poor side. Why was the notion suggested Ablett jnr would struggle being in the GC side, and he only dominated because of the likes of Bartel, Selwood etc being around him?

 

[DTRAIN87]

Name them. Or just list the top 10.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/2011s.html#seas

What a load of crap as usual .

 

[LandOfTheGiants]

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/2011s.html#seas

What a load of crap as usual .

 

[Boxhead_31]

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/2011s.html#seas

What a load of crap as usual .

And just like that HP is forced to abandon another thread

 

[Hodgepodge]

Name them. Or just list the top 10.

Absolutely!

Possessions per game

Matthew Boyd 31.9
Dane Swan 31.7
Scott Thompson 30.6
Sam Mitchell 30.5
Gary Ablett 30.3
Scott Pendlebury 29.7
Marc Murphy 29.1
Tom Rockliff 27.7
Simon Black 26.8
Nick Dal Santo 26.7

In bold are the bottom 4 side players.

LOL possessions are considered on of the two major categories of output in the AFL.

For midfielders sure. Hodge was a half-back.

Also I would dare say you would be performing to the extreme as an AFL footballer if you averaged 40 and 2 for the season and therefore the two topics are interrelated when you discuss them in the context you have.

Of course you would be. This doesn't mean it's harder to get 40 disposals at a bottom four club though. Nor has Ablett ever 40 and 2'd over a season, just two games.

Your empirical evidence was in fact circumstantial as your data only constituted a minority in regards to a 20% differential and doesn't conclusively prove your theory.

How is it circumstantial? You must not know the meaning of that word . . .

It's a minority, but so are the top possession getters. We're talking about the elite of the competition, so the top 10 isn't a minority at all in that respect.

And of the top 10, 4 are from 22% of the clubs in the comp.

So there's no reason at all to assume that being in a bottom 4 side makes it harder to gather possessions.

They most certaintly are being disadvantaged by being in a poor side. Why was the notion suggested Ablett jnr would struggle being in the GC side,

Because they were operating on the same assumption you were? It doesn't matter whether it was assumed or not, the claim just doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

You can't make conclusions based on assumptions, my Geelong-following friend. That's just crazy talk.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

For midfielders sure. Hodge was a half-back.

What do you mean "was" a half back

He remains a halfback because he isn't good enough to consistently perform where it counts most

 

[Hodgepodge]

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/2011s.html#seas

What a load of crap as usual .

It's hard to believe someone can be so unintentionally stupid so I'll assume you're doing it on purpose.

Of course players from Top 8 teams will have more season possessions in total . . . they play more games, including finals, which players from bottom 4 sides are excluded from.

The question on which players are better possession gatherers can only be answered with averages.

 

[LandOfTheGiants]

Absolutely!

Possessions per game

Matthew Boyd 31.9
Dane Swan 31.7
Scott Thompson 30.6
Sam Mitchell 30.5
Gary Ablett 30.3
Scott Pendlebury 29.7
Marc Murphy 29.1
Tom Rockliff 27.7
Simon Black 26.8
Nick Dal Santo 26.7

In bold are the bottom 4 side players.
.

They don't count as they never played the entire season, ask Nathan Brown.

 

[Hodgepodge]

They don't count as they never played the entire season, ask Nathan Brown.

I'll take that joke as your concession.

 

[DTRAIN87]

It's hard to believe someone can be so unintentionally stupid so I'll assume you're doing it on purpose.

Of course players from Top 8 teams will have more season possessions in total . . . they play more games, including finals, which players from bottom 4 sides are excluded from.

The question on which players are better possession gatherers can only be answered with averages.

No it can't. Because using your logic as stated above someone could play 1 game get 60 possies and be deemed the best .

 

[LandOfTheGiants]

I'll take that joke as your concession.

Ablett 40 and 2 and where no man has tread before.

What's there to concede?

 

[Hodgepodge]

No it can't. Because using your logic as stated above someone could play 1 game get 60 possies and be deemed the best .

Which doesn't apply to any of the mentioned players.

Ablett 40 and 2 and where no man has tread before.

What's there to concede?

The point about Bottom 4 teams being overrepresented in the top 10 possession averages.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Which doesn't apply to any of the mentioned players.



The point about Bottom 4 teams being overrepresented in the top 10 possession averages.

Not applying to the mentioned players has no relevance to the stand alone statement on the best way to judge possession gatherers .

Also I know of some top 8 players who play less games than their bottom 8 counterparts so that screws that logic as well.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Not applying to the mentioned players has no relevance to the stand alone statement on the best way to judge possession gatherers .

I take common sense for granted. If you want to set a games minimum, it would be something like 15 games.

Also I know of some top 8 players who play less games than their bottom 8 counterparts so that screws that logic as well.

Actually all it does is reinforce the point that you can't go by totals.

 

[DTRAIN87]

I take common sense for granted. If you want to set a games minimum, it would be something like 15 games.

So you make a comment making the point to criticise another's common sense and then make a figure on what constitutes a reasonable amount of minimum games without showing evidence to support this theory and is approximate . Real lot of common sense shown there!

 

[LandOfTheGiants]

The point about Bottom 4 teams being overrepresented in the top 10 possession averages.

So your saying Ablett will 40 and 2 and blow your Mighty Leigh Matthews theory away all because he plays in a bottom 4 side?

 

[LandOfTheGiants]

Both the Abletts wipe their ass with Matthews.

 

[jdemp]

FFS hodgepodge, why don't you do some statistical research in a topic that is worthwhile and something you can implement in the real world, instead of getting owned on internet forums. And don't ask me to back up my post, because I don't give a shit