A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[M Malice]

These people fascinate me more than any other group. If the culture war doesn't personally and directly affect them (e.g. they're LGBT+, may need an abortion one day), what do they actually gain from it? A sense of superiority?

From my observations and experience "A sense of superiority" is rife in even measures on both side of politics and on any random topic, you see it all over Big Footy when discussing in the grand scheme of things frivolous footy topics... and footy doesn't "directly affect them".

Everyone likes to think they are more objective, knowledgeable and enlightened than they actually are... I include myself in that.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

From my observations and experience "A sense of superiority" is rife in even measures on both side of politics and on any random topic, you see it all over Big Footy when discussing in the grand scheme of things frivolous footy topics... and footy doesn't "directly affect them".

Everyone likes to think they are more objective, knowledgeable and enlightened than they actually are... I include myself in that.

Footy, at the end of the day, is leisure, it's not going to kill anybody. Discrimination against trans people can directly lead to suicide. They are not the same.

Although, if someone's enthusiasm for their football club led them to vote against their own financial interests, I'd be curious as to why, just as I am with the culture war.

 

[M Malice]

Footy, at the end of the day, is leisure, it's not going to kill anybody. Discrimination against trans people can directly lead to suicide. They are not the same.

Although, if someone's enthusiasm for their football club led them to vote against their own financial interests, I'd be curious as to why, just as I am with the culture war.

Be who you want to be and do whatever you want to your own body IF you are an adult, I could not care less ... but stay the F away from children, puberty blockers and gender affirmation surgery for children is an abomination.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Be who you want to be and do whatever you want to your own body IF you are an adult, I could not care less ... but stay the F away from children, puberty blockers and gender affirmation surgery for children is an abomination.

And you would make people go through a puberty they don't want any part of? Even children are entitled to bodily autonomy.

 

[lionsrules]

Along with the racists, the christo-fascists, the hillbillies and the ultra-rich, another group that Donnie has captured is the "I don't like or trust Trump, but I gotta pwn the libs" demographic.

As a brown migrant that is a millennial … can you create a class for me please ?

 

[M Malice]

And you would make people go through a puberty they don't want any part of? Even children are entitled to bodily autonomy.

We have been through this discussion before JB, in short IMO children are not mature enough to make such radical life long decisions, they need the adults around them to show some sanity and leadership.

I helped raise my now teenage grandchildren, if one of them had come to me when they were circa 10 years old and said they were the opposite sex to what they were born, I would first tell my son and his wife who would in no way start organising puberty blockers and surgery(we have spoken of this pandering woke madness) they would get them the psychological help that they need.

 

[lionsrules]

And you would make people go through a puberty they don't want any part of? Even children are entitled to bodily autonomy.

In my opinion the health practitioners that go ahead with those operations on children should Be jailed for causing infertility in minors.

 

[McIvor]

We have been through this discussion before JB, in short IMO children are not mature enough to make such radical life long decisions, they need the adults around them to show some sanity and leadership.

I helped raise my now teenage grandchildren, if one of them had come to me when they were circa 10 years old and said they were the opposite sex to what they were born, I would first tell my son and his wife who would in no way start organising puberty blockers and surgery(we have spoken of this pandering woke madness) they would get them the psychological help that they need.

I posted this somewhere on here and I still maintain my position because the young lady in my post who is now 17 identifies more and more as a young lady. Thank god Mum said no and no doubt this young lady who is like a niece to me would also be grateful her Mum was so adamant at the time:

I could care less about transgender issues until it impacts me and makes thinking it’s ok to use rest rooms that my daughter or other female family member may be in.

As for the rest of my post, the people you’ve potted have valid points I agree with; kids should NOT be making decisions that ultimately impacts their entire life whilst a child. Hence why children are legally unable to make decisions about a raft of things for obvious reasons. Here’s two examples; I don’t have tattoos but I know plenty that do and most either regret getting the ones when they were 18-20 or getting them at all. Why because they’ve changed and don’t identify with whatever image / words they are or where on there body’s they got them. Secondly, one of my partners best friends had a 15 year old daughter and was as she described very girly girl as a young girl however when she was 13-14 thought she should be a boy and started dressing as one and asked everyone to call her this boys name she gave herself. Anyway, she asked Mum to have the ops and what not and Mum said no; when you’re 18 and if you still feel that way she would support her daughter or son or whatever. Anyway this fad lasted all of 18 months and she has now reverted back to her original name, wearing girls clothes and the rest. So lets say when Mum was asked 18 months ago and allowed her to take the hormones and ops and the rest what it would have done to this girl, all really because kids are now told they can be and do whatever they want and now they want back to what it is they want. So they may cause irreparable damage to their body again remembering these people think kids are mature enough to make such massive decisions.

I don’t need Joe, De Phil and whoever else to inform my decision but I’ll be damned if I ever agree that children should be given a right to make some of these sort of decisions that some are saying they should be allowed to make be it about their identity, what they do themselves and piercings and Tatts and a lot of other things such as identifying as a frog which so many wokies seem to think they should.

 

[M Malice]

In my opinion the health practitioners that go ahead with those operations on children should Be jailed for causing infertility in minors.

The Travistock Clinic scandal in the UK highlighted this foolishness.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

In my opinion the health practitioners that go ahead with those operations on children should Be jailed for causing infertility in minors.

So you too don't think children should have bodily autonomy and would subject them to a traumatic puberty that they do not want. Okay.

 

[Mr Ripper]

As a brown migrant that is a millennial … can you create a class for me please ?

Millennial brown migrants. There ya go.

 

[lionsrules]

So you too don't think children should have bodily autonomy and would subject them to a traumatic puberty that they do not want. Okay.

Yep got that right

 

[lionsrules]

So you too don't think children should have bodily autonomy and would subject them to a traumatic puberty that they do not want. Okay.

Just like they don’t get to have a tattoo on their own or they can’t get a piercing on their own …. They can’t walk into a hospital and have their genitalia mutilated.

 

[Dalions]

So you too don't think children should have bodily autonomy and would subject them to a traumatic puberty that they do not want. Okay.

You can add another one to that list.

 

[dlanod]

I think some of the rhetoric needs to be dialed back. In general the thread has been handled well, but it's starting to drift into more emotive language designed to get people to bite back - even if that's not the intent of the poster, it was the intent of the person coining the phrase in the first place.

So just think about how you'd react if someone applied an equivalent label or language to something you support.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

We have been through this discussion before JB,

Yes, and you dredged it up again. Note that I didn't mention children at all, only that discrimination against trans people can lead to suicide. Then you immediately directed the conversation to children. Will you do that whenever someone brings up discrimination against trans people?

in short IMO children are not mature enough to make such radical life long decisions, they need the adults around them to show some sanity and leadership.

We're never going to agree on this. You have your view, I have mine, that's okay. Just treat trans adults as you would any other adult.

I helped raise my now teenage grandchildren, if one of them had come to me when they were circa 10 years old and said they were the opposite sex to what they were born, I would first tell my son and his wife who would in no way start organising puberty blockers and surgery

Are you under the belief people are suggesting hormonal and surgical intervention as a first step for anyone, let alone children, before they've had psychological treatment? That's not legal, and it's not what people are suggesting should happen. Everyone accepts the need for ongoing psychological treatment before any further steps are taken. It's when psychological treatment fails to show progress, that further steps are considered.

(we have spoken of this pandering woke madness)

I'd like to know who exactly you think they're pandering to.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Just like they don’t get to have a tattoo on their own or they can’t get a piercing on their own …. They can’t walk into a hospital and have their genitalia mutilated.

As I said to M Malice above, the scenario you pose is a straw man argument. Everyone accepts the need for ongoing psychological treatment and a clear indication to the psychologist that it isn't showing any progress before any further steps such as hormones or surgery are embarked upon. To compare it to tattoos or piercings is absurd, because neither of those things are medical procedures that require repeated professional medical assessment.

Heck, if people are that concerned about children's genitalia being mutilated, I say let's outlaw the circumcision of male children too.

 

[Dalions]

Heck, if people are that concerned about children's genitalia being mutilated, I say let's outlaw the circumcision of male children too.

I thought it pretty much was?
Other than Religious or Medical reasons.

 

[dlanod]

I thought it pretty much was?
Other than Religious or Medical reasons.

More accurately is that it's not, because any "religious" exception is always wide enough to drive a bus through.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I thought it pretty much was?
Other than Religious or Medical reasons.

Perhaps I can claim that my religion allows children to access hormone blockers and gender affirming surgery then. Subject to prerequisite psychological treatment, of course.

 

[Crimso]

So, according to Trump, Kamala wants to get rid of cows because of climate change, and once the cows have gone people will be next!!!
This one is as good as an abortion after birth.
And people believe this shit.

 

[western royboy]

So, according to Trump, Kamala wants to get rid of cows because of climate change, and once the cows have gone people will be next!!!
This one is as good as an abortion after birth.
And people believe this shit.

The people voting for Trump will vote for him regardless of what he does. The evangelical nut jobs are voting for him despite him being the antithesis of anyone remotely religious, he’s got the temerity to say that God was watching that prevented his assassination…but unfortunately took the life of another poor soul. But lets forget that as it doesn’t fit the narrative.

Harris has to incentivise those that genuinely couldn’t give a stuff to get off their arse and vote.

I genuinely fear for the joint if Trump gets rolled again - last time was just a dry run.

It promises to be a fascinating run up until polling day - Trump wanted to debate Biden weekly - i cant see his handlers letting him do one, let alone 10 or 12.

 

[notliondown]

The trans debate is such a charged one that it's hard to have a sensible and cordial discussion.

While it's not exactly the same I will say this - I knew I was gay before puberty.

I hated it, and no matter how much self loathing I had, no matter how much guilt I had, no matter knowing (thinking in reality) that everyone around me would hate me, no matter how hard I convinced my self to like girls and have numerous girl friends (almost got engaged to one later in life) nothing would change it.

Hormones only made the guilt worse. There were plenty of times I cried silently trying to get to sleep. I don't remember a lot of my childhood fondly as everything seemed tinged by being different.

This debate is about experience vs beliefs. It's incredibly hard to understand personal experiences. It's also incredibly hard to change ingrained beliefs.

There is no black and white in this discussion... and to assume 1 solution fits all is a long way off the right way to deal with it.

Giving responsible, educated and reasoned options balanced with caution and safeguards, from an experience point of view, seems like the right way forward.

Suffice to say it saddens me that it's so deeply embedded in political debate because it shouldn't be.

 

[martinson]

The trans debate is such a charged one that it's hard to have a sensible and cordial discussion.

While it's not exactly the same I will say this - I knew I was gay before puberty.

I hated it, and no matter how much self loathing I had, no matter how much guilt I had, no matter knowing (thinking in reality) that everyone around me would hate me, no matter how hard I convinced my self to like girls and have numerous girl friends (almost got engaged to one later in life) nothing would change it.

Hormones only made the guilt worse. There were plenty of times I cried silently trying to get to sleep. I don't remember a lot of my childhood fondly as everything seemed tinged by being different.

This debate is about experience vs beliefs. It's incredibly hard to understand personal experiences. It's also incredibly hard to change ingrained beliefs.

There is no black and white in this discussion... and to assume 1 solution fits all is a long way off the right way to deal with it.

Giving responsible, educated and reasoned options balanced with caution and safeguards, from an experience point of view, seems like the right way forward.

Suffice to say it saddens me that it's so deeply embedded in political debate because it shouldn't be.

Don't worry mate if it's any consolation everyone has some sort of cross to bear in life , even people who seem to have everything , and in the end there's no one who escapes.

Sadly everything is political these days and everyone gets a say. Fortunately you seem to have grown into a thoughtful person comfortable in your own skin. And that's as good as we can all hope for.

 

[notliondown]

Don't worry mate if it's any consolation everyone has some sort of cross to bear in life , even people who seem to have everything , and in the end there's no one who escapes.

Sadly everything is political these days and everyone gets a say. Fortunately you seem to have grown into a thoughtful person comfortable in your own skin. And that's as good as we can all hope for.

Cheers mate thank you... Although I don't post that sort of stuff for sympathy... just to help with perspective.

For what it's worth my experiences have taught me to try not to judge and be tolerant of everyone. They made me who I am today and I'm grateful for that now... at the time not so much.