A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[martinson]

 

[M Malice]

Yes, and you dredged it up again. Note that I didn't mention children at all, only that discrimination against trans people can lead to suicide. Then you immediately directed the conversation to children. Will you do that whenever someone brings up discrimination against trans people?


We're never going to agree on this. You have your view, I have mine, that's okay. Just treat trans adults as you would any other adult.


Are you under the belief people are suggesting hormonal and surgical intervention as a first step for anyone, let alone children, before they've had psychological treatment? That's not legal, and it's not what people are suggesting should happen. Everyone accepts the need for ongoing psychological treatment before any further steps are taken. It's when psychological treatment fails to show progress, that further steps are considered.


I'd like to know who exactly you think they're pandering to.

Children are people.. and the most vulnerable, it needs to be in the spotlight.

On the rare occasion that I have interacted with a trans adult I treat them the same as any other adult, ie. assess their character... race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity etc is of no consequence. However that doesn't change my belief that you can not be a male or female and then decide to change to the opposite sex no matter what you do re surgery or hormonal treatment but go for it if that is what you want if you are an adult.

We will never agree on this one either JB, so called experts in the field make mistakes as well eg. Travistock Clinic UK. The first reaction seemed to be to go with what the child wanted which from experience is not always wise.

Pandering to prepubescent children.

 

[M Malice]

The people voting for Trump will vote for him regardless of what he does. The evangelical nut jobs are voting for him despite him being the antithesis of anyone remotely religious, he’s got the temerity to say that God was watching that prevented his assassination…but unfortunately took the life of another poor soul. But lets forget that as it doesn’t fit the narrative.

Harris has to incentivise those that genuinely couldn’t give a stuff to get off their arse and vote.

I genuinely fear for the joint if Trump gets rolled again - last time was just a dry run.

It promises to be a fascinating run up until polling day - Trump wanted to debate Biden weekly - i cant see his handlers letting him do one, let alone 10 or 12.

The same goes for Biden/Harris supporters as well in my view, there are more than enough "nut jobs" on both sides of politics, particularly in the USA.

 

[martinson]

The same goes for Biden/Harris supporters as well in my view, there are more than enough "nut jobs" on both sides of politics, particularly in the USA.

Honestly I reckon some on the left have just as many crackpot ideas , treating their pet causes as some sort of religion, just as abusive to anyone who disagrees. All draped in some sort of higher moral ground where they see themselves.

This is the world that we live in. The one thing I do find disturbing is the capacity to make up a lie , then bombard SM with it to get on board uncommitted people who otherwise wouldn't have an interest , and soon enough it pops up as fact in conventional media. This occurs on both sides of politics as far as I can tell with at least equal measure and anyone who doesn't admit that is just plain biased.

 

[M Malice]

Honestly I reckon some on the left have just as many crackpot ideas , treating their pet causes as some sort of religion, just as abusive to anyone who disagrees. All draped in some sort of higher moral ground where they see themselves.

This is the world that we live in. The one thing I do find disturbing is the capacity to make up a lie , then bombard SM with it to get on board uncommitted people who otherwise wouldn't have an interest , and soon enough it pops up as fact in conventional media. This occurs on both sides of politics as far as I can tell with at least equal measure and anyone who doesn't admit that is just plain biased.

The narrative from their fanatical opponents are >

The right wing are gun toting, racist bigots.

The left wing are condescending virtue signallers.

Probably some truth in both extremes but the vast majority would be in the middle and have far more in common with each other and similar worries than they would even think possible. We all want job opportunities, affordable energy/groceries, housing affordability, financial security, safety/law and order, a good life for their children/grand children, affordable access to quality health care.

 

[Morbidly_Obese]

 

[M Malice]

This is where the rubber hits the road re the madness that is biological males competing against biological females in sporting competition... grossly unfair to women.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/olympi...s/news-story/d2d572651dd43d1c023ab38fd8ae07e5

‘Never hit so hard’: Olympics gender debate reignites as boxer abandons fight after two punches​

It comes after Imane Khelif, who along with Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting was disqualified from the world championships last year, won her Round of 16 bout in stunning fashion.

The International Olympic Committee generated debate with its decision to allow the two boxers who failed testosterone and gender eligibility tests at the 2023 world championships to compete in Paris.

 

[Dalions]

This is where the rubber hits the road re the madness that is biological males competing against biological females in sporting competition... grossly unfair to women.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/olympi...s/news-story/d2d572651dd43d1c023ab38fd8ae07e5

‘Never hit so hard’: Olympics gender debate reignites as boxer abandons fight after two punches​

It comes after Imane Khelif, who along with Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting was disqualified from the world championships last year, won her Round of 16 bout in stunning fashion.

The International Olympic Committee generated debate with its decision to allow the two boxers who failed testosterone and gender eligibility tests at the 2023 world championships to compete in Paris.

Good on her for throwing away her dream to stand up for all “Women” in Sport around the World.

 

[M Malice]

Good on her for throwing away her dream to stand up for all “Women” in Sport around the World.

Riley Gaines is another woman standing up, I watched her on a 2+ hour Podcast with Joe Rogan earlier in the year and it was certainly eye opening content, mainly talking about Lia Thomas but also talked about other instances of this unfairness.

 

[M Malice]

Italian Prime Minister having a say now, good on her.

https://metro.co.uk/2024/08/01/ital...e-boxer-quits-fight-vs-imane-khelif-21342269/

Italy’s Prime Minister, Giorgia Meloni, has slammed the decision to allow Imane Khelif to compete in the women’s boxing after Angela Carini abandoned her fight against the Algerian after just 46 seconds on Thursday.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

This is where the rubber hits the road re the madness that is biological males competing against biological females in sporting competition... grossly unfair to women.

Good on her for throwing away her dream to stand up for all “Women” in Sport around the World.

In your haste to post, I take it neither of you bothered to read any further on Khelif, or you wouldn't be claiming she isn't a woman. Khelif is not trans. Some women just naturally produce elevated levels of testosterone despite being born with female genitalia. Should she have been allowed to compete? Well, the line has to be drawn somewhere and she failed that line, so perhaps the answer is no. But this is nothing to do with the issue of trans women in sport.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I mean, just think about it for a second, is Algeria some famous hotbed of tolerance and progressivism and trans acceptance? Or is it more likely to be a place with very traditional notions of gender, that are assigned in perpetuity based on the appearance of one's body at birth?

 

[M Malice]

In your haste to post, I take it neither of you bothered to read any further on Khelif, or you wouldn't be claiming she isn't a woman. Khelif is not trans. Some women just naturally produce elevated levels of testosterone despite being born with female genitalia. Should she have been allowed to compete? Well, the line has to be drawn somewhere and she failed that line, so perhaps the answer is no. But this is nothing to do with the issue of trans women in sport.

If Khelif is in fact a biological female and she is just more powerful than the typical female boxer I admit it was a mistake of me to highlight it.

I am confused by this part of the above report I linked >

The International Olympic Committee generated debate with its decision to allow the two boxers who failed testosterone and gender eligibility tests at the 2023 world championships to compete in Paris.
__________________________________________
This mistake by me does not lessen the serious issue of trans women competing against biological women in sporting competition eg Lia Thomas.

 

[p4p1]

In your haste to post, I take it neither of you bothered to read any further on Khelif, or you wouldn't be claiming she isn't a woman. Khelif is not trans. Some women just naturally produce elevated levels of testosterone despite being born with female genitalia. Should she have been allowed to compete? Well, the line has to be drawn somewhere and she failed that line, so perhaps the answer is no. But this is nothing to do with the issue of trans women in sport.

Khalifa has XY chromosomes, so would that likely mean born with testicles like caster semenya was?

 

[Jivlain]

This is where the rubber hits the road re the madness that is biological males competing against biological females in sporting competition... grossly unfair to women.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/olympi...s/news-story/d2d572651dd43d1c023ab38fd8ae07e5

‘Never hit so hard’: Olympics gender debate reignites as boxer abandons fight after two punches​

It comes after Imane Khelif, who along with Taiwan’s Lin Yu-ting was disqualified from the world championships last year, won her Round of 16 bout in stunning fashion.

The International Olympic Committee generated debate with its decision to allow the two boxers who failed testosterone and gender eligibility tests at the 2023 world championships to compete in Paris.

The trouble here is that Khelif and Lin are cis women.

Khalifa has XY chromosomes, so would that likely mean born with testicles like caster semenya was?

I haven't actually seen any information to actually support that claim - the IBA was quite low on detail on exactly what the disqualifying factor was. As far as I can tell speculation about what her chromosomes are is speculation.

The IBA bans were relatively dubious - based on a sudden rule change and quite low on detail, to the extent that the IOC called them out on their process.


But this response was very good

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If Khelif is in fact a biological female and she is just more powerful than the typical female boxer I admit it was a mistake of me to highlight it.

I am confused by this part of the above report I linked >

The International Olympic Committee generated debate with its decision to allow the two boxers who failed testosterone and gender eligibility tests at the 2023 world championships to compete in Paris.

I haven't seen any details of what those gender eligibility tests are. But p4p1 says she has XY chromosomes, so let's work with that assumption for now.

We've been through this before with Caster Semenya. One big thing in the Semenya debate was biologists chiming in to say that "biological sex" is not just based on one single thing, but multiple. Semenya has internal testes, but also a vagina. It wouldn't be correct to say Semenya is biologically male, she has an intersex condition (but thinks of herself as "a different kind of woman", so let's respect that when talking about her). I don't know if Khelif has internal testes too, details of the tests are very scarce.

Should Semenya have been allowed to compete? The courts eventually said no, and they've done a lot more research on this issue than I have. Again, the line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm not saying that Khelif should be allowed to compete, just that some women produce more testosterone, perhaps due to genetic complications they wouldn't know of without medical tests. Nothing to do with trans people.

This mistake by me does not lessen the serious issue of trans women competing against biological women in sporting competition eg Lia Thomas.

Fine, that's a reasonable debate to have. And there I defer to sports scientists as to what is reasonable. What I will say is that gold medal athletes in men's sport often have natural biological advantages, like producing more testosterone or increased aerobic capacity. That's what allows them to be the best. It's only when it comes to women that this is suddenly an issue.

 

[M Malice]

I haven't seen any details of what those gender eligibility tests are. But p4p1 says she has XY chromosomes, so let's work with that assumption for now.

We've been through this before with Caster Semenya. One big thing in the Semenya debate was biologists chiming in to say that "biological sex" is not just based on one single thing, but multiple. Semenya has internal testes, but also a vagina. It wouldn't be correct to say Semenya is biologically male, she has an intersex condition (but thinks of herself as "a different kind of woman", so let's respect that when talking about her). I don't know if Khelif has internal testes too, details of the tests are very scarce.

Should Semenya have been allowed to compete? The courts eventually said no, and they've done a lot more research on this issue than I have. Again, the line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm not saying that Khelif should be allowed to compete, just that some women produce more testosterone, perhaps due to genetic complications they wouldn't know of without medical tests. Nothing to do with trans people.


Fine, that's a reasonable debate to have. And there I defer to sports scientists as to what is reasonable. What I will say is that gold medal athletes in men's sport often have natural biological advantages, like producing more testosterone or increased aerobic capacity. That's what allows them to be the best. It's only when it comes to women that this is suddenly an issue.

I am no scientist either but in my uneducated opinion a line could potentially be drawn ie. if you have been through male puberty you are ineligible to compete in designated women's sporting competitions.

 

[McIvor]

Riley Gaines is another woman standing up, I watched her on a 2+ hour Podcast with Joe Rogan earlier in the year and it was certainly eye opening content, mainly talking about Lia Thomas but also talked about other instances of this unfairness.

I saw Riley in front of Congress and it’s truly insane that people born male are even allowed to compete as women, no less go into change rooms with women and girls. It shouldn’t even be up for debate and as someone in Congress; people pandering to a small group of people for reasons unknown.

 

[Jivlain]

I am no scientist either but in my uneducated opinion a line could potentially be drawn ie. if you have been through male puberty you are ineligible to compete in designated women's sporting competitions.

A thing I find very interesting about the trans debate is that a lot of people who suddenly have grave concerns about trans women in sports also want to see puberty blockers banned.

On that specific proposal, I think it's dubious because right now relatively few trans girls are able to get access to puberty blockers - let alone in the past, and also because the evidence suggests that several years on HRT takes away a lot of the nominal advantages anyway. What remains is probably best considered on a sport-by-sport basis.

But, probably the biggest problem you run into is - how do you work out who has gone through a testosterone puberty? That's not something you can definitively measure, years later, either.

 

[p4p1]

Fine, that's a reasonable debate to have. And there I defer to sports scientists as to what is reasonable. What I will say is that gold medal athletes in men's sport often have natural biological advantages, like producing more testosterone or increased aerobic capacity. That's what allows them to be the best. It's only when it comes to women that this is suddenly an issue.

I mean, it’s not exactly the same thing though is it. The weightlifter from NZ went from a nobody to a world record holder but there has never been a successful athlete who has gone the other way. There has been trans people who have come out against trans people in female sports because in their own lived experience they have physical advantages over women in sports.

 

[McIvor]

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I am no scientist either but in my uneducated opinion a line could potentially be drawn ie. if you have been through male puberty you are ineligible to compete in designated women's sporting competitions.

So you don't want children to have puberty blockers or surgery if they don't want to go through male puberty, but also want to prevent people who have gone through male puberty to compete in women's sports. Sounds like they just can't win.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I mean, it’s not exactly the same thing though is it. The weightlifter from NZ went from a nobody to a world record holder but there has never been a successful athlete who has gone the other way.

What do you mean exactly, a world record holder who went to being a nobody after transitioning?

There has been trans people who have come out against trans people in female sports because in their own lived experience they have physical advantages over women in sports.

All trans people are biologically different to each other. And they are not a hivemind. There are women out there who think women are to blame when they are victims of sexual assault. It doesn't make their views correct, or the majority view among women.

 

[Dalions]

What do you mean exactly, a world record holder who went to being a nobody after transitioning?


All trans people are biologically different to each other. And they are not a hivemind. There are women out there who think women are to blame when they are victims of sexual assault. It doesn't make their views correct, or the majority view among women.

Speaking of being different, isn’t that the argument?
Trans Women will always be different.
And no matter how much they wish that they were a Woman, they will never really be a Woman.
They need to be open to the fact that they are different and should be open to the idea of having their own competitions to celebrate their differences.
Trans Competitions as another category in the Olympics and any other event around the World should be the solution and they should celebrate that.

 

[martinson]

Speaking of being different, isn’t that the argument?
Trans Women will always be different.
And no matter how much they wish that they were a Woman, they will never really be a Woman.
They need to be open to the fact that they are different and should be open to the idea of having their own competitions to celebrate their differences.
Trans Competitions as another category in the Olympics and any other event around the World should be the solution and they should celebrate that.

At last some common sense.