A thread on politics- have some balls and post

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Johnny Bananas said:
So you don't want children to have puberty blockers or surgery if they don't want to go through male puberty, but also want to prevent people who have gone through male puberty to compete in women's sports. Sounds like they just can't win.
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No. These are not the same thing. To think otherwise is illogical.
If you transition one way or the other, your sporting career, at least at an elite level is or should be over. If a sporting career is more important to someone who is trans than becoming what they believe is their true gender then it is a sacrifice they unfortunately have to make. If the transition is more important than their sporting career then again that is the decision that they made. The world is littered with people who may have gone on to have elite sporting careers if not for life and circumstances getting in the way.
 
Nathan Barley said:
Unfortunately what gets lost in the gender debate is working towards it not mattering which gender you are. You shouldn't have to change gender to align with how you feel you are as a person
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It is a hard one, if it does not matter what gender you are just have open sporting competitions eg. If you are human you play in the AFL, no such thing as "womens" and "mens" sports.

The reason 99% of sports are segregated is because there is obvious inherent differences between the sexes eg. muscle mass, lung/heart capacity, bone density and alignment, spatial awareness, hand eye coordination.

Your 2nd sentence is brilliant, if you feel a particular gender why the need for surgery/puberty blockers?
 

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M Malice said:
It is a hard one, if it does not matter what gender you are just have open sporting competitions eg. If you are human you play in the AFL, no such thing as "womens" and "mens" sports.

The reason 99% of sports are segregated is because there is obvious inherent differences between the sexes eg. muscle mass, lung/heart capacity, bone density and alignment, spatial awareness, hand eye coordination.

Your 2nd sentence is brilliant, if you feel a particular gender why the need for surgery/puberty blockers?
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Well yeah I don't understand why you'd want to compete in a woman's sport

Unfortunately what I think gets missed is that the end goal should be that people don't identify as male or female and don't get treated differently whereas the focus seems to be a battleground of letting people get treated as if they're the opposite sex to how they were born
 
Johnny Bananas said:
What do you mean exactly, a world record holder who went to being a nobody after transitioning?
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Laurel Hubbard - Wikipedia

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The opposite.
Johnny Bananas said:
All trans people are biologically different to each other. And they are not a hivemind. There are women out there who think women are to blame when they are victims of sexual assault. It doesn't make their views correct, or the majority view among women.
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Trans women are not and I say this in the least offensive way possible, real women. They were not biologically born as women. I sympathise with what any trans person goes through and will always respect someone's wishes on how they prefer to be pronouned when meeting them. But I do not pretend that they are not transwomen and that they are women.
Drawing comparisons to women blaming other women for being sexually assaulted is a ridiculous bow to try and draw. That is not the same thing. There is people out there giving their opinion based on their experience. You cannot say that a transperson's experience which is a big part of why they feel like they are the wrong gender is all that matters and then in the next breath say that the transpeople who don't agree with your opinion based on their experiences are the same as women who blame women for sexual assault.

Transwomen competing against biological females is an assault on a women's rights. Especially in a sport like boxing. I sparred a female professional world champion when I was 17 or 18, and I was an good fighter. Nothing special and certainly not world championship material but it was like sparring a child. The speed and strength difference despite being the same weight was unbelievable.

Why do transrights activists believe their rights to compete in sport at an elite level are more important than womens rights to do so?

In cultures where it is more accepted to be a transperson, the transperson never demands that everyone acknowledges they are a 'real' women they just ask/demand that they are treated as another human being but acknowledge that they are not the same as someone who is born the gender they identify with.
 
Dalions said:
Trans Competitions as another category in the Olympics and any other event around the World should be the solution and they should celebrate that.
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The biggest issue I see with that is the talent pool so so shallow that really it is more like a puddle. Instead of competing against (in theory) 50% of the population you are competing against 0.5-1% of the talent pool.
 
p4p1 said:
The biggest issue I see with that is the talent pool so so shallow that really it is more like a puddle. Instead of competing against (in theory) 50% of the population you are competing against 0.5-1% of the talent pool.
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If the competition is there, they will come.
 
M Malice said:
It is a hard one, if it does not matter what gender you are just have open sporting competitions eg. If you are human you play in the AFL, no such thing as "womens" and "mens" sports.

The reason 99% of sports are segregated is because there is obvious inherent differences between the sexes eg. muscle mass, lung/heart capacity, bone density and alignment, spatial awareness, hand eye coordination.

Your 2nd sentence is brilliant, if you feel a particular gender why the need for surgery/puberty blockers?
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I thought Riley Gaines really articulated this well in the vidoe of her I posted earlier.
 
Dalions said:
If the competition is there, they will come.
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I am sure trans people would compete but my overall point was that the amount of trans people as a % is so small that the talent pool can never be anything but very weak. So there is a balance between giving people their rights to compete against each other (something I am for) versus the balance of not devaluing something like an Olympics medal. So there must be a balance of what sports can have enough participants. Otherwise we could have an (admittedly exceptional) athlete winning more medals at an Olympics than Phelps in something like track and field rather than swimming.
 
p4p1 said:
I am sure trans people would compete but my overall point was that the amount of trans people as a % is so small that the talent pool can never be anything but very weak. So there is a balance between giving people their rights to compete against each other (something I am for) versus the balance of not devaluing something like an Olympics medal. So there must be a balance of what sports can have enough participants. Otherwise we could have an (admittedly exceptional) athlete winning more medals at an Olympics than Phelps in something like track and field rather than swimming.
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In principle though I think it's the way forward. Having the rights of a man who wants to compete as a woman take precedence over the thousands of women he's competing against is just self evidently nuts. And how the relevant authorities have allowed this damaging situation to develop is puzzling.
 
martinson said:
In principle though I think it's the way forward. Having the rights of a man who wants to compete as a woman take precedence over the thousands of women he's competing against is just self evidently nuts. And how the relevant authorities have allowed this damaging situation to develop is puzzling.
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Exactly what "extremely damaging situation" are you talking about here?

Is it the situation where a bunch of fanatical weirdos can suddenly decide to arbitrarily eject cis women from their womanhood on vague, dubious, and unstated criteria and then that suddenly becomes a worldwide phenomenon? That sounds pretty dangerous indeed.

It can't be anything involving trans women, because there aren't any competing in these Olympics.
 
Dalions said:
And so it should remain.
Unless it is a Trans Woman competing against a Trans Woman.
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That is the common sense solution.. or they compete in the men's competition, it astonishes me that some think trans women should be able to compete against biological women, the inherent advantages biological men have are just too great.
 

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western royboy said:
Just my two cents worth but i reckon there are probably bigger issues worth debating
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Just because there are bigger issues worth debating does not mean the smaller ones shouldn't be debated.
This is a footy forum where we debate on footy, players, coaches, umpires etc with our heart, soul and emotions ever present on what is at the end of the day a meaningless game that impacts none of our lives outside of love for a club, entertainment and more often than not extreme frustration.
So dare I say debating womens rights is one of the more serious things we have and will debate on in this forum.
 
McIvor said:
I saw Riley in front of Congress and it’s truly insane that people born male are even allowed to compete as women, no less go into change rooms with women and girls. It shouldn’t even be up for debate and as someone in Congress; people pandering to a small group of people for reasons unknown.
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Totally agree, what happen to Riley was completely wrong on all levels.
 
Lion Jack said:
Totally agree, what happen to Riley was completely wrong on all levels.
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The thing that irked me the most about listening to that was how all of the girls were asked if they agreed to him swimming in the comp as a girl, but then pressured in no uncertain terms that they had to say yes because he had threatened to kill himself if they said no.
 
Dalions said:
Speaking of being different, isn’t that the argument?
Trans Women will always be different.
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Biologically, yes. In mind and soul? That's another argument altogether.

Dalions said:
And no matter how much they wish that they were a Woman, they will never really be a Woman.
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In your opinion. I don't agree.

Dalions said:
They need to be open to the fact that they are different and should be open to the idea of having their own competitions to celebrate their differences.
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I'm not a trans woman so I can't speak for them. But based on the conversations I've had with them, the impression I get is they have no desire to celebrate their differences, beyond a general sense of pride as part of the LGBT+ community. They spend a lot of their lives being othered, ostracised and sneered at for their differences. They just want to be counted among the gender they feel comfortable as. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask when it comes to living in mainstream society. Sports are another matter, where I'll again defer to sports scientists.

Dalions said:
Trans Competitions as another category in the Olympics and any other event around the World should be the solution and they should celebrate that.
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Maybe, maybe not, but it's for them to decide, not for the rest of us to tell them what they should want.
 
martinson said:
At last some common sense.
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The thing with common sense is that it only applies to the things we agree with, and not to things we disagree with. I think it's a rather self-important thing to decide what is and isn't common sense on a topic with divided opinions, especially when it pertains to what a group of people none of us are part of ought to do.

Nathan Barley said:
Unfortunately what gets lost in the gender debate is working towards it not mattering which gender you are. You shouldn't have to change gender to align with how you feel you are as a person
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That's up to the individual, I would have thought. Unfortunately, societies created gender and said men should be big and tough and not cry, and women should be pretty and nurturing and delicate. When someone lives in a society with roles and expectations around gender, I think it's only natural that some people feel that the role they fit with best is what is commonly applied to the other main gender. I look forward to the day when gender expectations simply don't exist, and people are just people no matter what their biology. But we don't live in that society yet.

western royboy said:
Just my two cents worth but i reckon there are probably bigger issues worth debating
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I agree, I'd much rather talk about solutions to the ridiculous house prices we're seeing at the moment, or what the government should do about inflation, or how we're tracking with reducing greenhouse gas emissions. But I do care about the topic of transgender people (not so much athletes) because I have trans friends who I hope find acceptance in society.
 
Johnny Bananas said:
Biologically, yes. In mind and soul? That's another argument altogether.


In your opinion. I don't agree.


I'm not a trans woman so I can't speak for them. But based on the conversations I've had with them, the impression I get is they have no desire to celebrate their differences, beyond a general sense of pride as part of the LGBT+ community. They spend a lot of their lives being othered, ostracised and sneered at for their differences. They just want to be counted among the gender they feel comfortable as. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask when it comes to living in mainstream society. Sports are another matter, where I'll again defer to sports scientists.


Maybe, maybe not, but it's for them to decide, not for the rest of us to tell them what they should want.
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Does what women want not count at all? Because that is what you are saying.
 
Johnny Bananas said:
In your opinion. I don't agree.
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But they're not. I'm not sure why that is a problem. To start with they have never had a proper female experience. They have their own experiences and challenges that a different from what someone born a female has had. My understanding is the best and most effective way to treat their illness/condition is gender reassignment surgery. If that is what the medical professionals say is the best treatment is then absolutely we should have no issue with someone having the surgery.


Johnny Bananas said:
I'm not a trans woman so I can't speak for them. But based on the conversations I've had with them, the impression I get is they have no desire to celebrate their differences, beyond a general sense of pride as part of the LGBT+ community. They spend a lot of their lives being othered, ostracised and sneered at for their differences. They just want to be counted among the gender they feel comfortable as. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask when it comes to living in mainstream society. Sports are another matter, where I'll again defer to sports scientists.
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We are talking about sports, not how society treats them. Should someone be able to live their life how they wish, as long as they are not hurting anyone else? Yes. But we are talking about an unfair playing field with positions etc potentially taken away from women. If we allow transwomen in womens sports then we might as well get rid of female sports all together and have one division for everything.
 

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A thread on politics- have some balls and post

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