A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[martinson]

Democrats need to stop overestimating Americans who will vote against their best interests and what they think is important

Actually they totally underestimated Americans and spent too much time looking at Instagram.

You're misreading why this has happened. They've lost millions of their traditional voters who you would label as smart in 2020 and now they're suddenly dumb ?

It's across the board. Trump hasn't changed. They have.

 

[Grasshopper17]

On the plus side four more years of comedy fodder for the late night hosts.

Those late night hosts may not get 4 years... On television at least...

 

[notliondown]

Democrats need to stop overestimating Americans

Fixed it for you.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Actually they totally underestimated Americans and spent too much time looking at Instagram.

You're misreading why this has happened. They've lost millions of their traditional voters who you would label as smart in 2020 and now they're suddenly dumb ?

It's across the board. Trump hasn't changed. They have.

Its an international issue that blue collar workers are shifting to the right wing. Not just a democrats issue

Millions voting to protect reproductive rights but also Trump who clearly is having his strings pulls by secret groups on this issue before the scene and as he was on most issues wasn't definitive on his position. Or Americans just totally misreading the economy and his plan for economy

 

[martinson]

Its an international issue that blue collar workers are shifting to the right wing. Not just a democrats issue

Millions voting to protect reproductive rights but also Trump who clearly is having his strings pulls by secret groups on this issue before the scene and as he was on most issues wasn't definitive on his position. Or Americans just totally misreading the economy and his plan for economy

Reproductive rights ? You really think that was an issue ?

You're now blaming Trump for being secretive , which is the last thing he is , and the voters .

That's a complete losing hand.

 

[Viceregal]

They should have gone with that Alexandria Cortez or whatever her name is 8 years ago. I don't agree with a great deal of what she says but at least I know where she stands on things which is more than you can say for the rest of them.

iirc there was some suggestions at the time but there is a minimum age requirement to be POTUS (35 and older) and she didn't qualify (turned 35 this October) and by the time she would have her radical creds were too well known and some of her 'mensa' moments too meme worthy for it to be a credible option ... oh and in the US you go from Senator/Governor to President not from Congress (where she was (checks results) make that is) and she didn't have the clout in the party back-room to make that jump.

 

[Grasshopper17]

iirc there was some suggestions at the time but there is a minimum age requirement to be POTUS (35 and older) and she didn't qualify (turned 35 this October) and by the time she would have her radical creds were too well known and some of her 'mensa' moments too meme worthy for it to be a credible option ... oh and in the US you go from Senator/Governor to President not from Congress (where she was (checks results) make that is) and she didn't have the clout in the party back-room to make that jump.

Fair enough. Maybe this is why all the presidential candidates belong in nursing homes. It takes that long building up the right sort of cache to make a run at it.

I guess that won't be a problem going forward tho at least. Trump will just handover to one of his children or a trusted lieutenant when his time is up. Whenever he decides that is.

 

[notliondown]

Actually they totally underestimated Americans and spent too much time looking at Instagram.

You're misreading why this has happened. They've lost millions of their traditional voters who you would label as smart in 2020 and now they're suddenly dumb ?

It's across the board. Trump hasn't changed. They have.

The trouble with the American system is that you can't prove that.

Voluntary voting throws so much variability into trends and results that saying the Dems lost traditional voters is a big call. I wouldn't be surprised if they did lose some - both parties tend too as time goes by - but there was feeling amongst Dems in the last few days that they would win. An arrogance.

I suspect quite a few Dem voters simply didn't vote. There was this thinking that surely people wouldn't let Trump win again, everyone else will go vote. It's why Harris spent so much time in the last few days trying to shore up the Blue wall.

The reality is what happens in Red and Blue states doesn't really matter and turn out is almost irrelevant. Reading trends in traditional states is a waste of time apart from noting push button topics at any given time.

I'm not saying that's the reason the Dem's lost... But I think the tone of their campaign was creating a false confidence amongst the engaged Dem voter.

What it didn't do was motivate the left leaning part time voter like getting rid of Trump did last time. That was always going to be hard.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Reproductive rights ? You really think that was an issue ?

You're now blaming Trump for being secretive , which is the last thing he is , and the voters .

That's a complete losing hand.

What's his healthcare plan? Leave it to RFK jr?

Trump is far from transparent and anyone who thinks he is has been on the cool aid

Reproductive rights was one of the top 5 issues according to exit polls and passed in several states. Or is that fake news?

 

[martinson]

What's his healthcare plan? Leave it to RFK jr?

Trump is far from transparent and anyone who thinks he is has been on the cool aid

Reproductive rights was one of the top 5 issues according to exit polls and passed in several states. Or is that fake news?

Yes.

You're still fighting the fight.

It's over.

 

[martinson]

The trouble with the American system is that you can't prove that.

Voluntary voting throws so much variability into trends and results that saying the Dems lost traditional voters is a big call. I wouldn't be surprised if they did lose some - both parties tend too as time goes by - but there was feeling amongst Dems in the last few days that they would win. An arrogance.

I suspect quite a few Dem voters simply didn't vote. There was this thinking that surely people wouldn't let Trump win again, everyone else will go vote. It's why Harris spent so much time in the last few days trying to shore up the Blue wall.

The reality is what happens in Red and Blue states doesn't really matter and turn out is almost irrelevant. Reading trends in traditional states is a waste of time apart from noting push button topics at any given time.

I'm not saying that's the reason the Dem's lost... But I think the tone of their campaign was creating a false confidence amongst the engaged Dem voter.

What it didn't do was motivate the left leaning part time voter like getting rid of Trump did last time. That was always going to be hard.

Maybe they didn't turn out ,if they didn't , because they would've rather voted for Trump.

You couldn't get a bet on Trump over the last 6 weeks . They knew .They went full Nazi on Trump near the end and had celebs going hysterical.

Once it all sinks in after a week or two and they stop blaming Trump and the voters and their voters if they didn't turn up , they'll work out that they've been delusional not only in their electoral tactics but on the issues.

Don't worry . If they're smart enough to work it all out they'll be back in 2028.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Yes.

You're still fighting the fight.

It's over.

Great point. Very intelligent

 

[notliondown]

The whole thing is fascinating really...

The blue collar thing is just another weird contradiction - and it's happening here. The conservative parties that were - are - pro business, are now suddenly better for the worker too? It's a desperation that workers now see that the companies that gouge them and exploit them are somehow better off under the right so they must be too?

It's also indisputable that the conservative parties appeal to the high school graduates and the left to the higher educated. Which is nothing to do with education and everything to do with opportunities, social background and economics.

Like here there is a massive rural/city divide. It's not only perception but reality that living in rural and isolated communities disadvantages you in almost every way. Like Labor here the Dems cannot figure out how to appeal to that core group... and yet the conservative side has few real solutions either.

The Dems need to somehow re-engage with a tone and language and simplicity that they now just don't have. They need to operate at an everyday level not from on high. They struggle to learn that lesson.

And reproductive rights were definitely an issue - the passage of bills and even the losing bills outstripping Dem support in those areas proves it. But was it a big enough issue to sway or motivate actual votes - clearly not majorly. And perhaps it wasn't worth as much time as was spent on it.

 

[Grasshopper17]

The whole thing is fascinating really...

The blue collar thing is just another weird contradiction - and it's happening here. The conservative parties that were - are - pro business, are now suddenly better for the worker too? It's a desperation that workers now see that the companies that gouge them and exploit them are somehow better off under the right so they must be too?

It's also indisputable that the conservative parties appeal to the high school graduates and the left to the higher educated. Which is nothing to do with education and everything to do with opportunities, social background and economics.

Like here there is a massive rural/city divide. It's not only perception but reality that living in rural and isolated communities disadvantages you in almost every way. Like Labor here the Dems cannot figure out how to appeal to that core group... and yet the conservative side has few real solutions either.

The Dems need to somehow re-engage with a tone and language and simplicity that they now just don't have. They need to operate at an everyday level not from on high. They struggle to learn that lesson.

And reproductive rights were definitely an issue - the passage of bills and even the losing bills outstripping Dem support in those areas proves it. But was it a big enough issue to sway or motivate actual votes - clearly not majorly. And perhaps it wasn't worth as much time as was spent on it.

Yep. To me the issues for Labor and the Democrats can be traced back to their decisions a couple of decades ago to start focusing on causes rather than people. These are great if you are a champagne socialist and can afford higher taxes etc to fund whatever you think is important for society. It's exactly why the teals have done so well in eastern Sydney in recent elections. But they're not so great if you can barely afford to put food on the table as it is.

Here Labor moved in this direction to prevent the Greens from stealing too much of their base. Not sure what the Democrats can use as an excuse tho

 

[BangyBangy]

Fair enough. Maybe this is why all the presidential candidates belong in nursing homes. It takes that long building up the right sort of cache to make a run at it.

I guess that won't be a problem going forward tho at least. Trump will just handover to one of his children or a trusted lieutenant when his time is up. Whenever he decides that is.

One of my mates is a tin foil hat trump hater too. He's going to be the next Hitler.... You wait till he overturns the 22nd amendment etc..... Everyone that opposes him will be put into concentration camps.

I'm a quiet observer of politics, don't get too deep into it, but certainly didn't want Trump to get back in.

I guess time will tell.

 

[martinson]

They should have gone with that Alexandria Cortez or whatever her name is 8 years ago. I don't agree with a great deal of what she says but at least I know where she stands on things which is more than you can say for the rest of them.

I quite like her . But she was too far left for them to risk it apart from the unknown quantity factor.

If she sees herself as a leader in waiting she now faces the fork in the road.

Does she rally her supporters and say we lost this because we weren't left enough , or does she try to moderate her views that will be palatable to the majority of her party and the electorate at large.

She has the capacity in her I think but it'll be the ideological battle that defines her career.

 

[steve9798]

Its an international issue that blue collar workers are shifting to the right wing. Not just a democrats issue

Millions voting to protect reproductive rights but also Trump who clearly is having his strings pulls by secret groups on this issue before the scene and as he was on most issues wasn't definitive on his position. Or Americans just totally misreading the economy and his plan for economy

Blue collars workers aren't shifting to the right. The party they used to support are moving further and further to the fascist Left.

"I didn't leave the Democrat party, the Democrat party left me".

 

[Nathan Barley]

Blue collars workers aren't shifting to the right. The party they used to support are moving further and further to the fascist Left.

"I didn't leave the Democrat party, the Democrat party left me".

But the guy who makes all his MAGA merchandise in China will look after the American workers and set up the economy for long term success?

 

[Grasshopper17]

One of my mates is a tin foil hat trump hater too. He's going to be the next Hitler.... You wait till he overturns the 22nd amendment etc..... Everyone that opposes him will be put into concentration camps.

I'm a quiet observer of politics, don't get too deep into it, but certainly didn't want Trump to get back in.

I guess time will tell.

I get the tin foil hat thing... I just don't know how else we're supposed to interpret him saying "we'll fix it for you so you never have to vote again" while he was on the campaign trail. I mean of course he's unhinged so it's possible it's all just bluff and bluster. Much like him threatening to put everyone who's campaigned against him behind bars.

But on the other hand he's also spent 4 years putting people in exactly the places they need to be for him to be able to do whatever he wants to do. And it's not just people wearing tin foil hats saying that... Even the ABC have climbed into some of that action.

 

[martinson]

Blue collars workers aren't shifting to the right. The party they used to support are moving further and further to the fascist Left.

I won't go so far as to call them the fascist left but they've focused too heavily on issues that don't affect most people. It's not 1962 anymore.

Trump has bolted in on the popular vote. So it's not just blue collar workers. It's a majority of others as well.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I get the tin foil hat thing... I just don't know how else we're supposed to interpret him saying "we'll fix it for you so you never have to vote again" while he was on the campaign trail. I mean of course he's unhinged so it's possible it's all just bluff and bluster. Much like him threatening to put everyone who's campaigned against him behind bars.

But on the other hand he's also spent 4 years putting people in exactly the places they need to be for him to be able to do whatever he wants to do. And it's not just people wearing tin foil hats saying that... Even the ABC have climbed into some of that action.

Even JD Vance called him a nazi

 

[rye]

Blue collars workers aren't shifting to the right. The party they used to support are moving further and further to the fascist Left.

"I didn't leave the Democrat party, the Democrat party left me".

i dont think you understand the meaning of the words you use.

 

[martinson]

The other significant factor about Trump winning the popular vote is that some of his rusted ons will have died since 2020 and a large swathe of 18 plusses have become eligible to vote. This was meant to be a huge boost to the Dems but it's gone the other way.

I have no explanation for this. When I was in the 18-30 bracket anyone who wasn't significantly left was looked on as kind of weird and I get the impression that's still the case in this country.

 

[Grasshopper17]

The other significant factor about Trump winning the popular vote is that some of his rusted ons will have died since 2020 and a large swathe of 18 plusses have become eligible to vote. This was meant to be a huge boost to the Dems but it's gone the other way.

I have no explanation for this. When I was in the 18-30 bracket anyone who wasn't significantly left was looked on as kind of weird and I get the impression that's still the case in this country.

"If you're 18 and right wing you've got no heart. If you're 30 and left wing you've got no brain."

Something like that?

 

[briztoon]

Arab Americans voting against Biden/Harris in protest of the situation in Gaza. Which is their right to do.

lol you heard what Trump had to say right?