AFL star’s anti-vax views cost him friendship

[Chief]

https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/in-focus/covid-19-vaccination-case-surveillance-051121.pdf

In the peak fortnight of the outbreak to date (25 August to 7 September), the COVID-19 case rate among 2-dose vaccinated people was 49.5 per 100,000 while in unvaccinated people it was 561 per 100,000, a more than 10-fold difference. The rates of COVID-19 ICU admissions or deaths peaked in the fortnight 8 September to 21 September at 0.9 per 100,000 in 2-dose vaccinated people compared to 15.6 per 100,000 in unvaccinated people, a greater than 16-fold difference.

 

[Monkey King]

I see you still don't understand.

There's a difference between giving credentials, and dick waving.

The below is dick waving.

Interesting you consider that dick waving. To me, it's just something that happened in my life that relates to why I am comfortable challenging the advice of a GP, for which you had a go at me as being some kind of 4chan dwelling ignoramus.

Again, if you don't want to know this kind of thing, don't go falsely stereotyping people, lest they exercise their right to refute it.

 

[Monkey King]

I think the disagreement is more about grandstanding on their decision. Spreading misinformation. Encouraging hesitancy and generally hampering efforts to get past this pandemic.

I'm not so sure. I've been an ardent supporter of all measures put in place to combat the pandemic and expressed such on this forum time and again, as I did also spending time last year pulling to pieces the false claims and misrepresentations of data and research made by posters like Les Malone.

No this is something different. I posted here to say that stereotyping an entire perceived group of people in order to stigmatize and vilify them is an uncool pattern of human behavior that should be resisted, not indulged. And the response has really been nothing more than an indulgence of that behavior.

 

[phantom13]

That's great. In your world, stigmatizing mental health is kinda funny. I'm comfortable with that being you not me.

Yesterday you acknowledged that you had done exactly this... Short term memory seems to be a real issue for you

I got vaccinated before anyone in this thread. Great idea.

I haven't been a dick to anyone who is not vaccinated. Great idea.

If you blokes can't separate the two concepts just isn't my problem.

The delivery of the message of "everyone should get vaccinated" seems to be the major issue here.

Ultimately the overwhelming majority of healthcare professionals recommend that all people get the vaccine for COVID 19, thats not up for debate and doesnt need peer reviewed research to agree upon. The message that you are peddling is that people who choose to ignore this advice are making a completely acceptable decision, thats simply not true. With the literal handful of exemptions for genuine medical reasons aside (which in spite of your protestations come from someones GP) EVERYONE should be vaccinated, to protect themselves, their friends and family and the community at large, again, none of this is up for debate.

So if you want to champion the unvaccinated for "doing their own research" and defend them for making a decision that is not in any way backed by any medical professionals (or to be absolutely accurate only being supported by the tiniest minority of medical professionals) that is your right, as is everyone else right to tell you youre wrong.

 

[phantom13]

I'm not so sure. I've been an ardent supporter of all measures put in place to combat the pandemic and expressed such on this forum time and again, as I did also spending time last year pulling to pieces the false claims and misrepresentations of data and research made by posters like Les Malone.

No this is something different. I posted here to say that stereotyping an entire perceived group of people in order to stigmatize and vilify them is an uncool pattern of human behavior that should be resisted, not indulged. And the response has really been nothing more than an indulgence of that behavior.

Firstly the vast majority of people are not qualified or educated to question their GP, you might be but even though you were you still got vaccinated (which no doubt would have been your GPs advice).

Secondly even if people were, its not just GP advice to get vaxxed, are you or the majority of the population qualified to question (nearly) the entire medical community? If you/theyre not then why would you support them going against the advice?

 

[BF Tiger]

You mentioned peer-reviewed research then ran for the hills when asked to present it. Not an ounce of substance to your words.



That's great. In your world, stigmatizing mental health is kinda funny. I'm comfortable with that being you not me.

Where did I stigmatise mental health? I have not said one thing bad against mental health.

I may have facetiously stigmatised you, but in my world you are worthy of being facetiously stigmatised.

You’ve become an object of mocking and derision. Welcome to an internet forum. Suck it up.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Everyone thought Copernicus was an idiot when he said the earth wasn’t the centre of the universe, something everyone believed was the case for over 1,000 years.

Trust me, there is nothing wrong with free thinking. It’s those who try and suppress freedom of speech and thinking which are the weaklings.

"Free thinker" is just another name for whackjob.

 

[faible]

Interesting you consider that dick waving. To me, it's just something that happened in my life that relates to why I am comfortable challenging the advice of a GP, for which you had a go at me as being some kind of 4chan dwelling ignoramus.

Again, if you don't want to know this kind of thing, don't go falsely stereotyping people, lest they exercise their right to refute it.

I do appreciate that you consistently try to make-up what I think and say.

I never mentioned 4chan for a start, or called you an ignoramus.

You waved your dick around. Well done big fella for challenging the advice of a GP.

It was always bizarre line of argument to have made given that from the outset it was quite clear I was referring to the ~ 95% of the population who aren't qualified medical workers. Only you seemed to take personal offence at people seeing a GP for advice, whilst recommending they Do Their Own Research and supporting your clearly uninformed anti-vaxx Colorado friend.

For someone who claims to have such a high level of expertise in the field, you do a good job of not displaying it.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Firstly the vast majority of people are not qualified or educated to question their GP, you might be but even though you were you still got vaccinated (which no doubt would have been your GPs advice).

Secondly even if people were, its not just GP advice to get vaxxed, are you or the majority of the population qualified to question (nearly) the entire medical community? If you/theyre not then why would you support them going against the advice?

He's already explained. Even though he's fully-vaxxed, he's here with the sole purpose of penning endless posts exhorting people to not be mean to people who think they know more than the experts.

Pretty sure I triggered the whole thing back on P.19 when I foolishly said "People just need to get a grip. Bunch of shrinking violets (and ironically, mostly the cohort so fond of calling everyone else "snowflakes")".

That was his cue to step in and fight the good fight for that much-maligned cohort. Throw the book at me.

 

[Chief]

Everyone thought Copernicus was an idiot when he said the earth wasn’t the centre of the universe, something everyone believed was the case for over 1,000 years.

Trust me, there is nothing wrong with free thinking. It’s those who try and suppress freedom of speech and thinking which are the weaklings.

This is just people trying to ride the coat tails of geniuses.

Just because people have been ultimately proven right in the past doesn’t automatically mean we should listen to every unproven idea that comes down the track.

 

[I Rock]

This is just people trying to ride the coat tails of geniuses.

Just because people have been ultimately proven right in the past doesn’t automatically mean we should listen to every unproven idea that comes down the track.

But they should be allowed to express it?

 

[threesixpio]

Everyone thought Copernicus was an idiot when he said the earth wasn’t the centre of the universe, something everyone believed was the case for over 1,000 years.

Trust me, there is nothing wrong with free thinking. It’s those who try and suppress freedom of speech and thinking which are the weaklings.

Comparing an anti-vaxxer who has a considerable amount of information to access and lives in a liberal democracy to a person living hundreds of years ago where you were put to death for arguing against one book and it’s narrow orthodoxy is ridiculous.

Its also such a poor argument to select one example of problematic majority think from history to justify modern day individually based arrogant unsubstantiated think

Copernicus and other heroes like him lead the way to peer review, evidence based outcomes and critical thought. You **** this over and we are back to people like him being executed for having the tenacity to form arguments based on reason and evidence

But what’s worse is the lie that this “individual think” is rebellion. What are people actually rebelling against? They don’t want freedom of speech - they want to live in a world where scientifically built consensus is torn down and where they can assert facts without being challenged.

It is so weak too. Please don’t challenge me. Please don’t present evidence. By arguing against me you are hurting my feelings and I have a right to not be challenged.

Give me a break

 

[Chief]

But they should be allowed to express it?

And they should be criticised if they are obviously wrong. Then they should keep quiet because nobody wants to hear them repeat their nonsense after being shown to be wrong or misguided or lying.

 

[phantom13]

But they should be allowed to express it?

Not if it risks others personal safety and well-being.

The copernicus example is flawed anyway, he lived in a time where there was probably 3 other people on the planet that had any knowledge whatsoever of what he was talking about. We live in a time where millions of doctors support the vaccine as the best solution to an issue.

The lone dissenting voice in that example was the only educated guy, the dissenting voices here are the uneducated.

 

[Jeremias]

Everyone thought Copernicus was an idiot when he said the earth wasn’t the centre of the universe, something everyone believed was the case for over 1,000 years.

Trust me, there is nothing wrong with free thinking. It’s those who try and suppress freedom of speech and thinking which are the weaklings.

 

[threesixpio]

But they should be allowed to express it?

They don’t want the right to express it - they want protection from criticism. This is not consistent with freedom of speech.

I have the right to tell someone they are being wrong and silly basically. And someone being called wrong and silly is not akin to discrimination or subjugation. The appropriation of victim status by these losers is just so ridiculous

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

But they should be allowed to express it?

And more intelligent, reasonable people are free to tell them to take their dangerous conspiracy nonsense and stick it up their arse.

 

[I Rock]

To all those that replied to my last post - cheers. Always good to hear people views.

I will just say that I agree there are some weird and wild theories out there. However I try to keep an open mind and look at as much as I can, every if it's just for an interesting light-hearted read. Having said that, I wonder 18 months ago if/when people had said injections would be mandatory and vaccine passports would be required, what reception they would have got.

 

[phantom13]

To all those that replied to my last post - cheers. Always good to hear people views.

I will just say that I agree there are some weird and wild theories out there. However I try to keep an open mind and look at as much as I can, every if it's just for an interesting light-hearted read. Having said that, I wonder 18 months ago if/when people had said injections would be mandatory and vaccine passports would be required, what reception they would have got.

I think if youd told people 18 months ago that we would be locked down and business shut for the vast majority of said 18 months and the way out of that was vaccine passports most people would have accepted it.

If youd said to me 18 months ago we could avoid lockdowns (and the deaths they prevented) with a vaxx passport straight away i would have begged for the needle.

 

[I Rock]

I think if youd told people 18 months ago that we would be locked down and business shut for the vast majority of said 18 months and the way out of that was vaccine passports most people would have accepted it.

If youd said to me 18 months ago we could avoid lockdowns (and the deaths they prevented) with a vaxx passport straight away i would have begged for the needle.

I understand what you're saying, but I am not coming from a perspective of best policy given what we know now, just a how it would be perceived. I mean as in how the world will change. I remember discussing with the CEO and Board at my work in mid to late Feb and I said we need to seriously consider our plan if there are lockdowns (I have family in Hong Kong who told me the day before this is not a Swine Flu repeat scenario - that was the extent of my knowledge on it at the time to mention it) and I was basically scoffed at as it was instantly dismissed. It's not anyones fault in my eyes, just it seemed so far fetched at the time to them.

 

[phantom13]

I understand what you're saying, but I am not coming from a perspective of best policy given what we know now, just a how it would be perceived. I mean as in how the world will change. I remember discussing with the CEO and Board at my work in mid to late Feb and I said we need to seriously consider our plan if there are lockdowns (I have family in Hong Kong who told me the day before this is not a Swine Flu repeat scenario - that was the extent of my knowledge on it at the time to mention it) and I was basically scoffed at as it was instantly dismissed. It's not anyones fault in my eyes, just it seemed so far fetched at the time to them.

We have the benefit of hindsight now.

Plenty of people advocated for lockdowns immediately (my business sent us home a week earlier than the mandated work from home rules).

If you could tell people 18 months ago everything that was about to happen and then tell them getting two shots would mean none of it happens id bet the overwhelming majority would do it in a heartbeat. This is also a far cry from this

But they should be allowed to express it?

So do you have a point or are you just playing in the sandbox asking questions?

 

[faible]

I understand what you're saying, but I am not coming from a perspective of best policy given what we know now, just a how it would be perceived. I mean as in how the world will change. I remember discussing with the CEO and Board at my work in mid to late Feb and I said we need to seriously consider our plan if there are lockdowns (I have family in Hong Kong who told me the day before this is not a Swine Flu repeat scenario - that was the extent of my knowledge on it at the time to mention it) and I was basically scoffed at as it was instantly dismissed. It's not anyones fault in my eyes, just it seemed so far fetched at the time to them.

The concept of a global pandemic was pretty far fetched at the time, it hadn't happened at this scale since 1918. The world hasn't seen a global event like this since WW2.

Everything that's happened seems far fetched because almost everyone in the Western world alive today has had the luxury of not living through any events like this.

 

[Chief]

I am not coming from a perspective of best policy given what we know now, just a how it would be perceived.

LNP figures were abused for saying "We will have to live with it and accept that some people will die from it." This is probably true now.

To most people, at the time it sounded like they wanted to open up before we had done all we could to fight it.

 

[I Rock]

We have the benefit of hindsight now.

Plenty of people advocated for lockdowns immediately (my business sent us home a week earlier than the mandated work from home rules).

If you could tell people 18 months ago everything that was about to happen and then tell them getting two shots would mean none of it happens id bet the overwhelming majority would do it in a heartbeat. This is also a far cry from this


So do you have a point or are you just playing in the sandbox asking questions?

Just discussing what seemed far fetch not long ago is not so far fetch now. So it's not always an idea to dismiss things straight away would be the point if I need one. I just like talking about things from multiple angles.

 

[I Rock]

The concept of a global pandemic was pretty far fetched at the time, it hadn't happened at this scale since 1918. The world hasn't seen a global event like this since WW2.

Everything that's happened seems far fetched because almost everyone in the Western world alive today has had the luxury of not living through any events like this.

Agree, was interesting to see family who had been in HK and now back in Melbourne not see the big deal with mask requirments etc as they had dealt with it before a time or two.

 

[Forward Press]

Agree, was interesting to see family who had been in HK and now back in Melbourne not see the big deal with mask requirments etc as they had dealt with it before a time or two.

There's a greater sense of civic duty imo in many east Asian countries whereas in the western world there is a greater focus on individual rights. Australia tends to lean more towards the civic duty side than say the US or UK, though. In these east Asian countries, things like mask wearing when you're out in public (even before COVID entered our lexicon) was normalised. Again, just my opinion.