Mega Thread AFL to investigate Essendon for controversial fitness program - PART3

[Shellz]

Wonder if Fletcher's parents will go?

 

[jenny61_99]

Neither. Purely comedic reasons. I just reckon it's funnier than referring to the idiom by its proper title.

Makes me laugh every time I see it - but please, think of the children! How can we educate them to know that the saying ISN'T "ESCAPE GOAT" if we keep doing it for a laugh!?

 

[strobe00]

I reckon we'll hear the ''without their knowledge or their consent'' quote a couple of hundred times this week.

If the AFL could run a sporting competition the way they do PR, we'd have the world's best. Unfortunately PR is about the only thing they seem competent at.

''Without their knowledge or their consent'' is utterly irrelevant in this discussion.[/quote]
.

That's true.

But that means that the players can't dob themselves in. They've never tested positive to a drug test from any stuff they were given, so ASADA could only hit them with a ban if they have proof the players were given a banned substance, or via an administration method that isn't allowed.

If the ACC has phone tap stuff or testimony that proves players have been given stuff outside of WADA guidelines, then they're stuffed anyway.

But if the ACC/ASADA can't prove they have, the players are in the clear

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The problem with that stance is, if they didn't know - WHY didn't they? If the players were taken off-site for injections, why weren't alarm bells raised then? Did one of them go along with players to see what was happening - if not, why not? You can't just stick your head in the sand and say "oh but they told me everything was ok". You have to give evidence that you did everything in your power to ensure that was the case. I can't believe players didn't say something sooner. Absolutely NOTHING reads right about being taken off site to be injected with Vitamin C (according to McVeigh). Somebody, somewhere should have said something.

Which begs the question of why no player said anything...or any of his parents managers or medical advisors.... were they under instructions to keep these injections secret?

 

[ziad]

Good read.

I think the bungling government agency (ie bunch of public servants) need to work out what was given to essendon players first. All reports conclude there is a possability that the substance/s were illegal/banned and were administered without the players knowledge. Thus, they may turn out to be ok. Not quite what I would call a darkest day.

either way I look forward to some very solid lawyer action. Class Action perhaps?

 

[Shellz]

http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/breakin...clubs-under-investigation/20130211-2e747.html

Recreational drugs. Any collingwood supporter will tell you that.

 

[PoppedCorn]

talk is the single player is from a vic club as well.....
a big vic club
one with a very large membership

 

[Andrew Mc]

Wonder if Fletcher's parents will go?

So long as there's wheelchair access I guess.

 

[jonbe54]

Good read.

I think the bungling government agency (ie bunch of public servants) need to work out what was given to essendon players first. All reports conclude there is a possability that the substance/s were illegal/banned and were administered without the players knowledge. Thus, they may turn out to be ok. Not quite what I would call a darkest day.

either way I look forward to some very solid lawyer action. Class Action perhaps?

Zaid the leaches (lawyers) always win, whatever happens.

 

[jonbe54]

talk is the single player is from a vic club as well.....
a big vic club
one with a very large membership

Leaves your mob out if that's true, doesn't it?

 

[fishardansin]

If it was found that players took banned substances they will be banned and banned immediately.

The fact is that even if it wasn't there fault that they took them it is still not fair on their competitors that they have to compete against someone who has had benefit of these substances.

No matter how unfair that would be on Essendon players individually I totally understand that and it is fair that the only wriggle room would be a 50% reduction.

However, as stated many MANY times in this thread the club is very confident that it didn't do anything wrong and have had reports of Dank allegedly illegally sourcing the substance and allegedly treating players in his office in ways that were not agreed upon by other leaders of the club.

This is what the investigation is about. Essendon want to get to the bottom of this and be able to put it behind them without this cloud hanging over their head.

These are the two possibilities

1. That everything is above board and despite Dank being a bit of a loud mouth cowboy and allegedly sourcing legal product illegally he did only what was accepted by the heads of the footy department.

2. That Dank has felt extra-ordinary pressure to deal with the demands of the footy department in beefing up the boys and cut corners while fooling everyone in the process. Not only did he not tell the coaches that what they wanted of the players was too much, he failed to repair the damage caused to their bodies while using banned substances.

I'm sorry but the second point seems too ridiculous for me to accept unless it is proven to have happened, especially seeing I did hear early last week from someone in the club that the media is blowing it up and they are very confident they have done nothing wrong.

I also think that many people feel committed to the potential that Essendon has done wrong and are scrambling to find something. So even if it is shown that no banned substances were taken they are over playing things like "waivers" and "forced injections" ... which is also speculation at this stage.

 

[Malifice]

Makes me laugh every time I see it - but please, think of the children! How can we educate them to know that the saying ISN'T "ESCAPE GOAT" if we keep doing it for a laugh!?

Neither. Purely comedic reasons. I just reckon it's funnier than referring to the idiom by its proper title.

 

[jonbe54]

If it was found that players took banned substances they will be banned and banned immediately.

The fact is that even if it wasn't there fault that they took them it is still not fair on their competitors that they have to compete against someone who has had benefit of these substances.

No matter how unfair that would be on Essendon players individually I totally understand that and it is fair that the only wriggle room would be a 50% reduction.

However, as stated many MANY times in this thread the club is very confident that it didn't do anything wrong and have had reports of Dank allegedly illegally sourcing the substance and allegedly treating players in his office in ways that were not agreed upon by other leaders of the club.

This is what the investigation is about. Essendon want to get to the bottom of this and be able to put it behind them without this cloud hanging over their head.

These are the two possibilities

1. That everything is above board and despite Dank being a bit of a loud mouth cowboy and allegedly sourcing legal product illegally he did only what was accepted by the heads of the footy department.

2. That Dank has felt extra-ordinary pressure to deal with the demands of the footy department in beefing up the boys and cut corners while fooling everyone in the process. Not only did he not tell the coaches that what they wanted of the players was too much, he failed to repair the damage caused to their bodies while using banned substances.

I'm sorry but the second point seems too ridiculous for me to accept unless it is proven to have happened, especially seeing I did hear early last week from someone in the club that the media is blowing it up and they are very confident they have done nothing wrong.

I also think that many people feel committed to the potential that Essendon has done wrong and are scrambling to find something. So even if it is shown that no banned substances were taken they are over playing things like "waivers" and "forced injections" ... which is also speculation at this stage.

I hope for your sake, and the good of the sport you are right but it sounds like whistling in the dark to me.

Anyway nobody knows anything yet apart from a few vague half accusations, this will be ongoing for some time.

 

[tigerdan]

There are claims that Hird and/or Evans didn't know what was going on. There are claims that players were injected with illegal substances.

Fact is that we don't know much about the forms signed and Essendon is investigating if stuff went on that Hird and Evans didn't know about. If nothing went on that that didn't know about then everything will be fine because they are 100% confident that what they think was going on is totally legal and not doping.

I'm not sure whether you think Hird and Evans will be fine, or the EFC will be fine (if 'they' didn't know what was going on). I'm assuming you mean Hird/Evans. That may well be true. But if you think the EFC will be ok if it is proven that the issue was sloely due to the 'rogue agent', I beg to differ. At the time he was a part of the club and the club has to be accountable. I actually find it odd that the guy who was sacked is being portrayed (perhaps subconsciously) as not a 'real' Essendon man and therefore all the blame can go onto him.

 

[Defacto]

If it was found that players took banned substances they will be banned and banned immediately.

The fact is that even if it wasn't there fault that they took them it is still not fair on their competitors that they have to compete against someone who has had benefit of these substances.

No matter how unfair that would be on Essendon players individually I totally understand that and it is fair that the only wriggle room would be a 50% reduction.

However, as stated many MANY times in this thread the club is very confident that it didn't do anything wrong and have had reports of Dank allegedly illegally sourcing the substance and allegedly treating players in his office in ways that were not agreed upon by other leaders of the club.

This is what the investigation is about. Essendon want to get to the bottom of this and be able to put it behind them without this cloud hanging over their head.

These are the two possibilities

1. That everything is above board and despite Dank being a bit of a loud mouth cowboy and allegedly sourcing legal product illegally he did only what was accepted by the heads of the footy department.

2. That Dank has felt extra-ordinary pressure to deal with the demands of the footy department in beefing up the boys and cut corners while fooling everyone in the process. Not only did he not tell the coaches that what they wanted of the players was too much, he failed to repair the damage caused to their bodies while using banned substances.

I'm sorry but the second point seems too ridiculous for me to accept unless it is proven to have happened, especially seeing I did hear early last week from someone in the club that the media is blowing it up and they are very confident they have done nothing wrong.

I also think that many people feel committed to the potential that Essendon has done wrong and are scrambling to find something. So even if it is shown that no banned substances were taken they are over playing things like "waivers" and "forced injections" ... which is also speculation at this stage.

alot has changed in 48 hours. 48 hours ago people were claiming a storm in a tea cup and the ACCC had nothing. the minister for justice then had to remind people on the type of powers the accc had and what evidence they had been able to build up.

everytime people get confident its a non-issue, something more comes that is more specific and more damning.

if it keeps trending the way it has, the situation will be very messy by the end of the NAB cup

 

[fishardansin]

Assuming the shit that was given to them was legit and not contaminated with other stuff.

The indications are that Dank was getting the stuff from less than legit sources.

Yes that is the major concern. Of course he could have thought that the St Albans dude was A OK and has bought them thinking they were legal. We just don't know, and I'm assuming that the interview tonight on the 7.30 report wont make it much clearer!!

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

These are the two possibilities

1. That everything is above board and despite Dank being a bit of a loud mouth cowboy and allegedly sourcing legal product illegally he did only what was accepted by the heads of the footy department.

2. That Dank has felt extra-ordinary pressure to deal with the demands of the footy department in beefing up the boys and cut corners while fooling everyone in the process. Not only did he not tell the coaches that what they wanted of the players was too much, he failed to repair the damage caused to their bodies while using banned substances.

Why are there only two possibilities?

You're apparently not well acquainted with the WADA code, otherwise you'd see that there are numerous. Especially considering Point 1 is sufficient to have players banned.

You've called this a 'storm in a teacup' for so long. It consequently blew out to an AFL wide investigation, and then an Australian sport wide investigation with criminal overtones. I see no reason to place faith in what you 'heard early last week', as it has contradicted everything that has happened to this point.

Even if no banned substances were taken, there are still regulations pertaining to the means in which they were administered.

 

[fishardansin]

I'm not sure whether you think Hird and Evans will be fine, or the EFC will be fine (if 'they' didn't know what was going on). I'm assuming you mean Hird/Evans. That may well be true. But if you think the EFC will be ok if it is proven that the issue was sloely due to the 'rogue agent', I beg to differ. At the time he was a part of the club and the club has to be accountable. I actually find it odd that the guy who was sacked is being portrayed (perhaps subconsciously) as not a 'real' Essendon man and therefore all the blame can go onto him.

What I'm saying is that if they didn't know then it is most likely that they were deceived. A boss doesn't necessarily get fired if an employee is embezzling.

Also it should be pointed out that I'm purely speculating and it is quite possible that Dank has done nothing wrong. Lets wait and see.

 

[PoidaCat]

Recreational drugs. Any collingwood supporter will smoke 'em.

Pretty much.

 

[fishardansin]

Why are there only two possibilities?

You're apparently not well acquainted with the WADA code, otherwise you'd see that there are numerous. Especially considering Point 1 is sufficient to have players banned.

You've called this a 'storm in a teacup' for so long. It consequently blew out to an AFL wide investigation, and then an Australian sport wide investigation with criminal overtones. I see no reason to place faith in what you 'heard early last week', as it has contradicted everything that has happened to this point.

Even if no banned substances were taken, there are still regulations pertaining to the means in which they were administered.

... and if there was nothing wrong, i.e. forms, substances and methods were all A OK ... what then?

 

[jenny61_99]

Yes that is the major concern. Of course he could have thought that the St Albans dude was A OK and has bought them thinking they were legal. We just don't know, and I'm assuming that the interview tonight on the 7.30 report wont make it much clearer!!

Clubs - IMO - should be paying their sports scientists to test the supplements they intend to give their players, particularly if they are sourced from non-traditional avenues. This is what we must work towards to ensure the safety of our players and integrity of the competition. Better yet, supplements of any sort should be banned full stop. Get the boys on healthy diets and balanced training regimes. Used to be good enough in the past.

 

[Masto]

talk is the single player is from a vic club as well.....
a big vic club
one with a very large membership

Would make sense since he has been repeatedly targeted by testers.

 

[rfctiger90]

If it was found that players took banned substances they will be banned and banned immediately.

The fact is that even if it wasn't there fault that they took them it is still not fair on their competitors that they have to compete against someone who has had benefit of these substances.

No matter how unfair that would be on Essendon players individually I totally understand that and it is fair that the only wriggle room would be a 50% reduction.

However, as stated many MANY times in this thread the club is very confident that it didn't do anything wrong and have had reports of Dank allegedly illegally sourcing the substance and allegedly treating players in his office in ways that were not agreed upon by other leaders of the club.

This is what the investigation is about. Essendon want to get to the bottom of this and be able to put it behind them without this cloud hanging over their head.

These are the two possibilities

1. That everything is above board and despite Dank being a bit of a loud mouth cowboy and allegedly sourcing legal product illegally he did only what was accepted by the heads of the footy department.

2. That Dank has felt extra-ordinary pressure to deal with the demands of the footy department in beefing up the boys and cut corners while fooling everyone in the process. Not only did he not tell the coaches that what they wanted of the players was too much, he failed to repair the damage caused to their bodies while using banned substances.

I'm sorry but the second point seems too ridiculous for me to accept unless it is proven to have happened, especially seeing I did hear early last week from someone in the club that the media is blowing it up and they are very confident they have done nothing wrong.

I also think that many people feel committed to the potential that Essendon has done wrong and are scrambling to find something. So even if it is shown that no banned substances were taken they are over playing things like "waivers" and "forced injections" ... which is also speculation at this stage.

Do you have a life?

All you've done since this thread opened is write essays about the same thing over and over again.

Get new arguments, you're boring to read.

 

[Mani]

There are claims that Hird and/or Evans didn't know what was going on. There are claims that players were injected with illegal substances.

Fact is that we don't know much about the forms signed and Essendon is investigating if stuff went on that Hird and Evans didn't know about. If nothing went on that that didn't know about then everything will be fine because they are 100% confident that what they think was going on is totally legal and not doping.

Its all over Fish!

The only problem I have is whether the Bombers should be participating in future drafts and receiving high draft picks

A 12 month period without many wins followed by a strong selection list at the draft table is hardly a penalty

I doubt that the players doing time will be the only punishments dealt out

There will most likely be draft sanctions and fines for the club (by the AFL) as well as whatever the sporting regulatory bodies hand out to any players involved in PED use.

Its all over FIsh - plan your next years worth of winters wisely - start now. I heard darts is a great sport to follow over the winter months - or perhaps bowling

 

[jenny61_99]

... and if there was nothing wrong, i.e. forms, substances and methods were all A OK ... what then?

Then the ACC are incompetent, their phone tapping sucks, and the people that gave evidence lied.