All Black v England

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Brett Li

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Apr 9, 2002
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Thoughts on the result anyone?

Reckon it will be close. England's brawn upfront v the quickest backline in the world. Should be very interesting. All Blacks with home advantage probably to edge a tough contest?......
 
Mate I'm looking forward to this one big time.

There's a previous thread about the Wallabies v Ireland which has got mine & some other views on this game.


Basically as much as I'm trying to talk myself out of it I think we will win.

The key is going to be to get the backs ,especially the centres taking some good lines & hitting the line form deeper positions, this is where Lewsey has improved the side over Robinson at fullback, who surely has to always play at wing & not FB ever again.

I don't know about you but I'm abit disapointed that Blashaw isn't on the bench, I really think we need him in the side for the WC.The bench full stop is a bit of a let down for me, HTF does Borthwick get in ahead of Simon Shaw?I think Woodward has a blind spot where Shaw is concerned.
Also I'd like to have seen one of Woodman/Vickery starting with the other on the bench.

We won't win though if we let the NZ backs rip us aprt as they did in the final quarter of last years game, there was a load of whingeing about crossing,maybe they were maybe they weren't but if the ref let's it go then we have to do the same to them.

Howlett coming up alongside his centres & taking the ball deep & at full pace was killing us & we need to be spot on when dealing with this.

Hopefully we'll manage to combine strong defence with killing them in the line outs & sapping their morale with a few rolling mauls whilst still getting the ball to the back 3 & running in a couple of tries.

Anywa get Boozy to come on here & give his views I always like to read his thoughts on the England rugby side.
 

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Oh this match is going to be great.

I just have a feeling that the english will pull this one off, barely.

England with their superior forward pack v NZ's superior backline should provide an intriguing game.

Keep an eye on Nonu for the all blacks. He is a game breaker, and is gonna give the english defence a run around.

Close game, but England will win by 3.
 
Originally posted by Iverson
Oh this match is going to be great.

I just have a feeling that the english will pull this one off, barely.

England with their superior forward pack v NZ's superior backline should provide an intriguing game.

Keep an eye on Nonu for the all blacks. He is a game breaker, and is gonna give the english defence a run around.

Close game, but England will win by 3.
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I was reading that their replacement lock is also always on the bench for the Crusaders, apparently he's a former league centre (although they didn't say at what level) & he's pretty big & very fast & just comes on late in the game & is basically a real impact player, it's pretty different to how we do it, I wonder if he's actually any good in the line out?

I read about that Nonu as well sounds pretty good although they made more of that Joe Rokocko(sp?), the funniest thing though was McCraw saying somehting like 'most teams don't try & take England on up front but we will & they might just get a shock', does he really think that France don't try & take us one very time we play them, maybe they'll try & take us on up front like the Maori did on Monday by calling for scrums instead of taking kickable penalties, my paper said that the England scrum was 'rock solid' when they did this.:D
 
Your talking about Brad Thorn there. He has loads of experience in league, with the Kangaroos, QLD, and the Brisbane Broncos.

He's not too strong in the lineouts, but around the rucks he can do some devastating runs. So it should be interesting to see how he fairs in his first game as an All Black.

McCaw is going to be a big danger for England. He is such an awesome number 7, and is going to cause some problems around the rucks for the english.
 
Well first of all as we won I feel that I can have a whinge about the referee, he was atrocious in general but ridiculously biased as well.
So many decisions were going against us along with NZ getting away with stuff it wasn't true.
Maybe the sin binnings were justified you can't really tell but a lot of the stuff was unjustified & then he caps it by allowing a try that was scored by a bloke who was in front of the kicker & our fullback is getting stamped on the head & they give the penalty to them against one of our props for vigorous rucking who at least was doing it near to the abll & not near anyone's head.

As for the game I ca't believe that we beat NZ in Wellington when

1/We played crap
2/Johnny Wilkinson played crap(except for his goal kicking)
3/Our line out totally fell to pieces
4/We were down to 13 men for nearly 10 minutes

Let's face it our defence was brutal & that's what won us the game.

I've never seen our line out go like that & it was worrying.

As for beign boring, well I was disappointed that we seemed to be trying to take the ball up the blind side so much but then I don't think they were much better on the eye.

All those down there who think that we're boring will feel justified especially the professional pommie basher Eddie Jones who came out with some line like 'I see England kicked themsleves to victory again'-he seems obsessed by us, if I was him I'd be more worried that his team only beat Wales 30-10 at home.

All the stuff about NZ having the most incisive backs doesn't ring quite as true now, what it says for the WC I don't really know but considering that NZ spent about 50 years beating people by strangling them with brutal forwward displays I'm not going to apologise for us doing the same to them.

I gaurantee we won't be 'boring' in the WC.
 
Sorry Dips, I was away last week (in Penzance - very nice) I saw the game in the company of a good friend and rugby fan.

Again we come up with the England 'boring' line. I've seen Australia (remember the last World Cup Final, actually I'd rather not - that was a very dull event) and NZ play much worse than that without complaint. I've noticed over the years that England have to play twice as well for half the praise.

England didn't see a huge amount of the ball, especially in the 1st half, and looked like they hadn't played together for a few weeks, which was the case (they normally start 'slow' in the 6 Nations). JW wasn't at his sharpest so Tindall ended up having to carry a lot of balls up, which he did very well. I was surprised how bad the line out was - I don't expect that repeated.

How big was Dallaglio? Absolute monster game. During the sin binnings Hill in the loose and Vickery in the tight were massive.

Remember, England's first choice pack will include Vickery and Woodman (two props who are excellent around the field) and hopefully Moody (in place of Back) who matches McCall for pace.

How the All Black 2nd row got away with stamping on Lewsey's head twice (and he tried a third time) is beyond me. Accident my arse! If that had been Johnson he'd have had a long ban.

I reckon Balshaw will at least be on the bench for the World Cup team. I'd like to see Healey fit and in form on there as well.

It might not have been the prettiest game but I've seen the All Blacks and Wallabies play less rugby and be very happy to take the victory in those situations - and don't doubt that England are well able to run in tries, ask Ireland.
 
Interesting stuff that's for sure.

As much as I would have liked England to lose this one, it certainly makes me look forward to the WC a lot more.

I didn't see the game, but heard on the radio that NZ had a scrum 5 metres from the line, which was wheeled by SIX England forwards. Is this true:confused:
 

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this game was a perfect example of how a ref can ruin a great game. Its the worst reffed game I have ever seen. Where is Van Zyl when you need him?

The tides are turning. This could in fact be a NH year for the wc. England look mighty strong. It was a poor performance by them really, but as the saying goes, "when you win playing badly, it means a lot in the end".

Anybody check out the All Blacks gear? The forwards have a normal type of jersey on, but the backs have some sort of swimsuit fitting jersey on. How tight can you go? Why weren't there any collars on the jersies? Talk about losing tradition hey.

Anyway NZ was lucky to get away with the only try of the match. Howlett was a meter or 2 off side and so NZ should have remained at 6 pts.

It was a very special win for England. I know many always mention how they can't win away when they play away from twickers - well they proved the kiwis wrong. Now they will hope to do the same with Australia.
 
Iverson, the backs jersey is meant to make it virtually impossible to grab onto, so if an All Black gets around a player they, in theory, will not be able to be grabbed onto.
 
Originally posted by Booze Hound

Again we come up with the England 'boring' line. I've seen Australia (remember the last World Cup Final, actually I'd rather not - that was a very dull event) and NZ play much worse than that without complaint. I've noticed over the years that England have to play twice as well for half the praise.
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I'd love to say, that England played with an attacking flair seldom seen in these parts, but that would simply be a lie.

Fact is, they were boring, and their tactics were negative in the extreme. The penalty count against them only highlights this. I'm sorry if this offends you, but that's my lasting impression I have left from this game.

If they can come up with something a bit more positive against Australia, then I'll be the first one to say well done.

As for the AB's, well as I said before, they played crap. Actually, they've been crap for sometime now. :)
 
Originally posted by colin

I didn't see the game, but heard on the radio that NZ had a scrum 5 metres from the line, which was wheeled by SIX England forwards. Is this true:confused:
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Mate not only is it true but we saw out about 4 scrums in a row at that point, they got so frustrated that the no8 just picked up in the end & went for a charge at the line & was just stopped short.

In the 7 or 8 minutes that we were down to 13 men we drove the ball up from deep in our half to deep into their's & we actually won that game within a game 3-0.

We actually played better with 13 men than we had at any point in the game up to that point, it was such a heroic backs to the wall affair that it made me think of Rorke's Drift, I half expected Michael Caine & Stanley Baxter to appear & start ordering people to wall up our try line with the dead.


As much as I would have liked England to lose this one, it certainly makes me look forward to the WC a lot more.
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You disappoint me, why would you want us to lose?:(

We're representing a whole hemispehere here.:D
 
Originally posted by Iverson
this game was a perfect example of how a ref can ruin a great game. Its the worst reffed game I have ever seen. Where is Van Zyl when you need him?

The tides are turning. This could in fact be a NH year for the wc. England look mighty strong. It was a poor performance by them really, but as the saying goes, "when you win playing badly, it means a lot in the end".

Anybody check out the All Blacks gear? The forwards have a normal type of jersey on, but the backs have some sort of swimsuit fitting jersey on. How tight can you go? Why weren't there any collars on the jersies? Talk about losing tradition hey.

Anyway NZ was lucky to get away with the only try of the match. Howlett was a meter or 2 off side and so NZ should have remained at 6 pts.

It was a very special win for England. I know many always mention how they can't win away when they play away from twickers - well they proved the kiwis wrong. Now they will hope to do the same with Australia.
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It's pretty good to read this, sometimes I'm not sure if I'm being biased & sometimes I read criticism of England from down under & think that's it's either biased or stereotypical.

So it was good to see that someone else thought the ref was terrible & ackowledging the fact that it was a great win for England regardless of performance.


Getting back to the subject of England's boringness, I think if you take this game as evidence then we were guilty of trying to play a dour brand of rugby but I think that was in large part to the conditions,we've made the mistake of trying to play an open game at the wrong times before & come a cropper so we kept it tight, I think we overdid it though, nearly every attack was a charge up the narrow side.

It seems to me that the reasons that England are branded as boring down there are partly because historically (going back to the early 90s) we played a forward dominated game & hardly put the ball through hands, it can be quite hard to shake off a reputation.

Secondly although we've played some beautiful attacking rugby up here in the last 4 years & have been the top try scorers in the 6 nations each year way ahead of France we've strugled to notch tries in game with NZ & Australia.

Australia beat Wales 30-10 the other day with Wales playing a long way from home after a long season, England usualy score more than that in Wales in the 6 nations let alone at home where we really give them a good hiding.We have no trouble scoring tries & breaking down defences in Europe but there's no doubt that we have struggled to replicate this against the big 2.

I remember 2 years ago at Twickenham we thoroughly dominated Australia all game, our forwards never gave them a sniff in the scrums or line outs & monstered them in the loose.We tried to cut them apart by running our backs at them but we couldn't break through, we lacked the sophistication & then near the end the Aussie backs merely put the ball through hands & ran round us for a try form Joe Roff I think.

At the end I read a few comments from Australia saying boring England just kick another victory, but it wasn't really like that we tried to run in the tries, we put the ball through hands in the backs but we weren't good enough & I think this is where some of the boring England stuff comes from-we win games against Australia especially by kicking more goals & scoring less tries but it's not as if we're playing for that.
 
Originally posted by Booze Hound

How big was Dallaglio? Absolute monster game. During the sin binnings Hill in the loose and Vickery in the tight were massive.

Remember, England's first choice pack will include Vickery and Woodman (two props who are excellent around the field) and hopefully Moody (in place of Back) who matches McCall for pace.
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Dallagilio was huge in that game, he's back to his best, the devestating pace might not be there anymore but he's a real 'hard yards' man.That steal he did when he just popped out of the back of big maul of their forwards was amazing, I may be in a minority of 1 in this country but I always preferred his brand fo leadership to Johnson's, a bit more in your face.

The best thing for me to come out of this game is that it may have signaled the end for Neil Back, I've never been a big fan & he was poor in this game.Moody was picked ahead of him & Dallagilio before he got injured & hopefully he'll pack down at 6 with Hill back at 7 where I still think he's the best in the world.

There's a lot of pace in the back up loose forward positions which we need to use in the WC, although your curse for talking up back row contenders may have struck again with Jamie Forrester having undergone surgery, I don't know if he'll be fit for the WC but he'd be a star on those fast grounds, his game isn't really suited to the wet & windy ones.
 
Originally posted by DIPPER


Getting back to the subject of England's boringness, I think if you take this game as evidence then we were guilty of trying to play a dour brand of rugby but I think that was in large part to the conditions,we've made the mistake of trying to play an open game at the wrong times before & come a cropper so we kept it tight, I think we overdid it though, nearly every attack was a charge up the narrow side.

It seems to me that the reasons that England are branded as boring down there are partly because historically (going back to the early 90s) we played a forward dominated game & hardly put the ball through hands, it can be quite hard to shake off a reputation.

Secondly although we've played some beautiful attacking rugby up here in the last 4 years & have been the top try scorers in the 6 nations each year way ahead of France we've strugled to notch tries in game with NZ & Australia.
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Dipper,

Stop trying to defend England against "player-hating".

The point is the game was won down-under against a fancied All Blacks side.

If we had lost - but played the open stuff - you would be hearing the perenial "can't win away from home" taunts.

I think NZ are truly rattled (see Mitchell ringing the changes) - and not looking forward to lining up against us during the WC .... We showed our mettle as tight-game winners. Certainly, a key attribute for serious WC challengers!

Both NZ and Australia will also be aware - with Vickery and Woodman - England will be an even stronger proposition.
 
I'm just giving my observations on the whole boring England thing, nothing wrong with that.

I know that we aren't boring as a rule, although in this game I feel that we showed too little ambition, the attacking part of a our game was shocking on the whole.There seemed almost a fear to take the ball out into the open side it was just charge after charge up the narrow.

I just want us to have the best chance of winning the World Cup & I'm sure that will be with taking a few chances & trying to open teams up with ball in hand.

As to the point about Mitchell ringing the changes I was interested to see that, I was wondering how much of it was a reaction to defeat & how much of it was pre-planned.Looking at some of the names that have gone out I can't believe that he see's this as his best side & so I'm sceptical as to whether he's dumped them all because they lost.
 
Originally posted by DIPPER

You disappoint me, why would you want us to lose?:(

We're representing a whole hemispehere here.:D [/B]
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Apologies Dipper, I guess I just prefer the All Blacks to England, that's all.

I promise I'll try and remain neutral for the England-Australia game.

By the way, with all the talk of hard pitches for the WC, how hard are the pitches down under at the moment? I understand it's your winter at the mo, but how similar will the conditions be in Oct/Nov?
 

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