April 2008 POTENT MIND Finalists

[H2F]

Don't forget to BYO cup...

You bring the two girls and I'll bring the cup ...

 

[gangsta deluxe]

Really ????

Is it not dangerous to argue about translations into English, particular when the Royal "We" might intrude arbitrarily?

And all the more so when the phrase is commonly utilised in modern day discussions, say, in talking about Imperial America and its relations to the wider world.

Now, Showdown Hero (no less), I was not quite sure off the top of my head whether the source for the quote is Cassius Dio (fragmentary at this point), Suetonius or one of the late Fourth Century epitomators (Aurelius Victor, Eutropius et al).

As you know surely know, Showdown Hero, the relevant books of Tactitus' Annals (VII - XII) are sadly missing (the key manuscript from the Monastery of Fulda disappeared a long, long time ago). Velleius Paterculus peters out with Sejanus still serving as Praetorian Prefect in the declining years of Tiberius.

Nor have I ever been able to track down a copy of Philo's work: he headed a mission to Caligula himself and his account is extant.

As it turns out it is Suetonius' Life of Caligula 30. Here is an online translation for your edification, Showdown Hero:


30 He seldom had anyone put to death except by numerous slight wounds, his constant order, which p453soon became well-known, being: "Strike so that he may feel that he is dying." When a different man than he had intended had been killed, through a mistake in the names, he said that the victim too had deserved the same fate. He often uttered the familiar line of the tragic poet:53

"Let them hate me, so they but fear me."
​

2 He often inveighed against all the senators alike, as adherents of Sejanus and informers against his mother and brothers, producing the documents which he pretended to have burned,54 and upholding the cruelty of Tiberius as forced upon him, since he could not but believe so many accusers. He constantly tongue-lashed the equestrian order as devotees of the stage and the arena. Angered at the rabble for applauding a faction which he opposed, he cried: "I wish the Roman people had but a single neck," and when the brigand Tetrinius was demanded,55 he said that those who asked for him were Tetriniuses also. 3 Once a band of five retiarii56 in tunics, matched against the same number of secutores,56 yielded without a struggle; but when their death was ordered, one of them caught up his trident and slew all the victors. Caligula bewailed this in a public proclamation as a most cruel murder, and expressed his horror of those who had had the heart to witness it.


I could provide the Latin text, but, sadly, my six years of training in the greatest of all languages have wasted away over time, replaced by much less useful knowledge. I am not even going to pretend that I can make any headway into such a text anymore.

So where does that leave us Showdown Hero?

Well, if there is one thing I was taught in my training is that one always should revert to the original source, which in this case is Suetonius 30.

I ignored your first barb because yes, I am a pretender in general, but the second pin-prick caused me to fuel up and then despatch the B-52s - hence the ordnance above.

If you have any other questions, particularly on (Imperial not Republican) Roman History, please let me know, Showdown Hero.

And have a nice day.

Biffinator.

Do you believe Gaius Caligula actions in the late 30s A.D. caused the escalation of conflict in Palestine(Galilee and Judea) that resulted in the Jewish rebellion of 66AD?

For those that are unaware Caligula replaced both Pontius Pilate from his office as Prefect of Judea, and Herod Antipas from his position as Tetrarch of Galilee. Pilate was a mildly successful leader who built good relations with the Jewish temple in Jerusalem(despite one notable slip) between the years of 26 and 36 A.D. He collected taxes and kept the peace, and incidentally ordered the killing of Jesus Christ. Antipas ruled for around from about 4BC to 38A.D. Under Antipas Galilee developed into a small, prosperous Jewish kingdom, where there were more than 40 years of growing and flourishing. These were good leaders who were removed foolishly(there is more to be said about Antipas but I believe Caligula could have supported him).

Caligula also decided that it would be nice if he placed a statue of himself in the centre of the Jewish temple. This plan caused a massive strike, as images of a Gentile were forbidden anywhere even close to the Temple, particularly those that would depict a human as somehow divine or above God. As Palestine was fundamentally an agricultural economy the result was devastating. There was mass starvation. This strike immediately preceded a massive drought(38-40B.C.?). Another was to follow in 60 A.D.

My view is a common one, yet equally common is the reasonable view(except the marxist interpretation) that Palestine was a basket case before Caligula, with tensions ready to boil over.

Tacitus does not provide particularly good commentary on this and Josephus evidence is highly questionable given his connection with the Jewish aristocracy.

Do you hold either of the common views or something different.

My favorite quote comes from Marcus Aurelius lol. "Just as bathing is to thee:dirt, oil, stench everything disgusting so is every part of life and every thing."

I got onto it when I was reading through the classics of the western world. I love his meditations. A good laugh. No philosophical structure whatsoever though. Useless for me at work. Very few sources of ancient writing are good philosophically. Plato and Aristotle are the two real exceptions.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

Really ????

Is it not dangerous to argue about translations into English, particular when the Royal "We" might intrude arbitrarily?

Would you argue for indeterminacy in translation?

It seems you are. Unfortunately, this means that you may have to accept Quine's thesis that there is no objectivity in meaning, or sameness of meaning. This comes from you notion here that there can be more than one objectively correct translation manual and that two such manuals can be incompatible(ill let you make the logical leap from here). If you want me to explain more ill pm you a suitable exposition of the theory so that I don't go too far off topic here!

Unless, of course you are willing to accept that there is only one objectively correct translation manual that we can arrive at. In such a way Showdown may be right. But there's no way he can prove it. Due to the epistemological nature of the situation there is no real way that he can prove which translation is correct. So your point still stands.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

You bring the two girls and I'll bring the cup ...

The first time I saw that clip I started watching 5 seconds in and I thought they were eating chocolate ice cream. I thought it was disgusting then.

When I replayed it I was nearly sick

 

[H2F]

The first time I saw that clip I started watching 5 seconds in and I thought they were eating chocolate ice cream. I thought it was disgusting then.

When I replayed it I was nearly sick

Lol... Some people are frigging Aliens or something. How could you eat shit FFS

 

[Chops_a_must]

I could provide the Latin text, but, sadly, my six years of training in the greatest of all languages have wasted away over time, replaced by much less useful knowledge. I am not even going to pretend that I can make any headway into such a text anymore.

Nice.

I've been trying to teach myself latin on and off for the last 12 months, with little success.

 

[H2F]

Nice.

I've been trying to teach myself latin on and off for the last 12 months, with little success.

Just google something every day ... Thats what I did for a few years hanging around at t job where all the executives were nothing without some lingo around the office.

Still useless though but would love to know it too.

 

[Chops_a_must]

Just google something every day ... Thats what I did for a few years hanging around at t job where all the executives were nothing without some lingo around the office.

Still useless though but would love to know it too.

I have some software and some books etc. which are great. It's more that I have to spend time learning things I'm meant too.

 

[H2F]

I have some software and some books etc. which are great. It's more that I have to spend time learning things I'm meant too.

Tell me about it. I still am trying to master the art of going to bed at night.

 

[Chops_a_must]

Tell me about it. I still am trying to master the art of going to bed at night.

Ahahaha!

The bloody IPL has been the death of my study the last few weeks.

 

[DockersMad]

Some of the posts in this thread explain why Biffinator deserves the potent mind mantle. I know I'm in the minority as the poll currently stands, but in my mind the title should deservedly go not only to the person who shows intelligence and wit, but who is best able to communicate their thoughts to others in their own right.

I don't wish to take anything away from OOgac at all, his posts are extremely funny and he is obviously very quick-witted, but his ability to express his thoughts is enhanced by his access to software. In this particular instance I will have to cast my vote for raw talent.

 

[Biffinator]

Do you believe Gaius Caligula actions in the late 30s A.D. caused the escalation of conflict in Palestine(Galilee and Judea) that resulted in the Jewish rebellion of 66AD?

For those that are unaware Caligula replaced both Pontius Pilate from his office as Prefect of Judea, and Herod Antipas from his position as Tetrarch of Galilee. Pilate was a mildly successful leader who built good relations with the Jewish temple in Jerusalem(despite one notable slip) between the years of 26 and 36 A.D. He collected taxes and kept the peace, and incidentally ordered the killing of Jesus Christ. Antipas ruled for around from about 4BC to 38A.D. Under Antipas Galilee developed into a small, prosperous Jewish kingdom, where there were more than 40 years of growing and flourishing. These were good leaders who were removed foolishly(there is more to be said about Antipas but I believe Caligula could have supported him).

Caligula also decided that it would be nice if he placed a statue of himself in the centre of the Jewish temple. This plan caused a massive strike, as images of a Gentile were forbidden anywhere even close to the Temple, particularly those that would depict a human as somehow divine or above God. As Palestine was fundamentally an agricultural economy the result was devastating. There was mass starvation. This strike immediately preceded a massive drought(38-40B.C.?). Another was to follow in 60 A.D.

My view is a common one, yet equally common is the reasonable view(except the marxist interpretation) that Palestine was a basket case before Caligula, with tensions ready to boil over.

Tacitus does not provide particularly good commentary on this and Josephus evidence is highly questionable given his connection with the Jewish aristocracy.

Do you hold either of the common views or something different.

My favorite quote comes from Marcus Aurelius lol. "Just as bathing is to thee:dirt, oil, stench everything disgusting so is every part of life and every thing."

I got onto it when I was reading through the classics of the western world. I love his meditations. A good laugh. No philosophical structure whatsoever though. Useless for me at work. Very few sources of ancient writing are good philosophically. Plato and Aristotle are the two real exceptions.

Gangsta Deluxe - your posting was very enjoyable.

I also want to commend the wider efforts by people to pick up Latin. In the corporatised, mechanical world that we live in, to spend precious hours on something as superfluous and yet so metaphysically empowering as Latin is a tremendous gesture to make as a human being.

Over the years, I have been on the receiving end of the maxim: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. What little expertise I have centres on the Severan dynasty, and the Third Century Crisis - 235 AD until say 270 AD with the advent of Aurelius 'Restitutor Orbis' (Aurelius, the Restorer of the World). Twenty six emperors or so in less than fifty years and multiple barbarian invasions makes for a good read - please trust me on this one.

I know much less about First Century AD Roman History. Even so I concur that Caligula was an incendiary in himself, and if he had not been assassinated then the First Jewish Rebellion would have occured a lot sooner.

Like, say, Hitler, Caligula was a Jungian generator of archetypes. Just look at the face, you will know what I mean. To define empowered insanity.

GD, God knows I have tried to encompass, if not incarnate Marcus Aurelius' mediations over the years, but wise though they be, the sayings all become a procession of grimness after a while.

What else can one expect on an Emperor who spent much of his life in the outer provinces fighting off the barbarians while back in Rome a worthless son was waiting to succeed him?

GD, please do not forget the famous Column of Marcus Aurelius in Rome. Unlike the triumphalism of Trajan's specimen, its commentary is far more realistic and all the more truthful for being so: Yes, War is Hell.

Anyway, enough glossy wank from yours truly. An element of self-disgust should always come to the fore when one parades what little learning one has.

Let Round 8 begin !!!

Biffinator

 

[Biffinator]

Would you argue for indeterminacy in translation?

It seems you are. Unfortunately, this means that you may have to accept Quine's thesis that there is no objectivity in meaning, or sameness of meaning. This comes from you notion here that there can be more than one objectively correct translation manual and that two such manuals can be incompatible(ill let you make the logical leap from here). If you want me to explain more ill pm you a suitable exposition of the theory so that I don't go too far off topic here!

Unless, of course you are willing to accept that there is only one objectively correct translation manual that we can arrive at. In such a way Showdown may be right. But there's no way he can prove it. Due to the epistemological nature of the situation there is no real way that he can prove which translation is correct. So your point still stands.

GD, strewth, you are really making me sweat at this point.

Now this is a bastardised version of Nietzsche with a twist of my own:

Outside mathematics (1 + 1 = 2), everything is subjective.

Were you aware that Shakespeare, being the god that he was, created a Black Hole at the end of Hamlet by virtue of four little words:

The rest is silence.

Some would say that all inductive thinking is actually deductive thinking, given our surface penetration of all phenomena.

The rest is silence.

And to cut to the chase, that is the grandeur of being a homo sapiens.

Existentially, what are you going to place a wager on?

If one were to nominate, say, a religion (and being the Bog Irish-Australian that I am, I have one), well, it might all be a complete fable at the end of the day. Bullocks and bulldust.

There are no answers at the back of the book. There is only a blank page asking one to inscribe an answer of one's own, and then commit to it.

And yet I am still happy to place a bet. And your good self GD?

Anyway, enough of this. My paymasters are demanding my attention !!!

Come on the Dees !!!!

Biffinator

 

[Rodger Pedactor]

Gangsta Deluxe - your posting was very enjoyable.

I also want to commend the wider efforts by people to pick up Latin. In the corporatised, mechanical world that we live in, to spend precious hours on something as superfluous and yet so metaphysically empowering as Latin is a tremendous gesture to make as a human being.

Over the years, I have been on the receiving end of the maxim: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. What little expertise I have centres on the Severan dynasty, and the Third Century Crisis - 235 AD until say 270 AD with the advent of Aurelius 'Restitutor Orbis' (Aurelius, the Restorer of the World). Twenty six emperors or so in less than fifty years and multiple barbarian invasions makes for a good read - please trust me on this one.

I know much less about First Century AD Roman History. Even so I concur that Caligula was an incendiary in himself, and if he had not been assassinated then the First Jewish Rebellion would have occured a lot sooner.

GD, God knows I have tried to encompass, if not incarnate Marcus Aurelius' mediations over the years, but wise though they be, the sayings all become a procession of grimness after a while.

What else can one expect on an Emperor who spent much of his life in the outer provinces fighting off the barbarians while back in Rome a worthless son was waiting to succeed him?

GD, please do not forget the famous Column of Marcus Aurelius in Rome. Unlike the triumphalism of Trajan's specimen, its commentary is far more realistic and all the more truthful for being so: Yes, War is Hell.

Anyway, enough glossy wank from yours truly. An element of self-disgust should always come to the fore when one parades what little learning one has.

Let Round 8 begin !!!

Biffinator

Biff, from now on you should begin each post with the words: "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears..." because you clearly aspire to such grand rhetoric.

Me, I'm a member of the Roman mob, and we can only jeer at your pomposity - yelling out that Latin catchcry of the mob: "Julius, borus shitlus!"

 

[Biffinator]

Biff, from now on you should begin each post with the words: "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears..." because you clearly aspire to such grand rhetoric.

Me, I'm a member of the Roman mob, and we can only jeer at your pomposity - yelling out that Latin catchcry of the mob: "Julius, borus shitlus!"

But you see Rodger, my registered Nemesis since 1978, I could not agree with you more !!!!

Biffinator

 

[bushie]

"WE WANT BWYAN"

"WEWEASE BWYAN"


Now between the two of you noble latin scholars.....


Which one is Caesar ??...

And which one is Biggus Dickus???

 

[Rodger Pedactor]

"WE WANT BWYAN"

"WEWEASE BWYAN"

Now between the two of you noble latin scholars.....

Which one is Caesar ??...

And which one is Biggus Dickus???

I believe the Welsh/Danish translation of "Biggus Diccus" is "Hugh Jorgen" - so go figure.

As for Caesar, well, I think that's Biff.

 

[Biffinator]

I believe the Welsh/Danish translation of "Biggus Diccus" is "Hugh Jorgen" - so go figure.

As for Caesar, well, I think that's Biff.

Bushie and Rodger, you are both dead right.

For all the finery of mere words, it always comes down in the end to who has the biggest wanger.

Biffinator.

PS, Rodger: Say no to the Horny Goatweed Showbags at the Royal Melbourne Show. Bad stuff indeed, from what you tell me !!!

 

[Hugh Jorgen]

For all the finery of mere words, it always comes down in the end to who has the biggest wanger.

I win then.

But I thought this was a vote for most potent mind.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

GD, strewth, you are really making me sweat at this point.

Now this is a bastardised version of Nietzsche with a twist of my own:

Outside mathematics (1 + 1 = 2), everything is subjective.

Were you aware that Shakespeare, being the god that he was, created a Black Hole at the end of Hamlet by virtue of four little words:

The rest is silence.

Some would say that all inductive thinking is actually deductive thinking, given our surface penetration of all phenomena.

The rest is silence.

And to cut to the chase, that is the grandeur of being a homo sapiens.

Existentially, what are you going to place a wager on?

If one were to nominate, say, a religion (and being the Bog Irish-Australian that I am, I have one), well, it might all be a complete fable at the end of the day. Bullocks and bulldust.

There are no answers at the back of the book. There is only a blank page asking one to inscribe an answer of one's own, and then commit to it.

And yet I am still happy to place a bet. And your good self GD?

Anyway, enough of this. My paymasters are demanding my attention !!!

Come on the Dees !!!!

Biffinator

I am a super realist. I mainly support Donald Davidson

I believe that there are objective objects, objective moral values, objectively correct languages, etc etc. I make fundamental metaphysical assumptions, which have not yet proven to be incorrect. I am not religious, nor am I an athiest. Ill accept my own ignorance on that front and go with agnosticism

Nietzsche is a very difficult writer to interpret. But, once you've got there, as it seems you have, you get a very solid argument. Geez those Germans know how to write good arguments. Frege(although I've got him on shanks!), Heidegger etc. Very hard to rebut

We do actually(whilst this is a bone of contention) think deductively, and according to Karl Popper can actually prove things deductively in science. I disagree with him but I wont go into that. Itll take a few thousand words.

 

[Chops_a_must]

Nietzsche is a very difficult writer to interpret. But, once you've got there, as it seems you have, you get a very solid argument. Geez those Germans know how to write good arguments. Frege(although I've got him on shanks!), Heidegger etc. Very hard to rebut

Husserl is the jewel in the crown if you ask me. Does a good job of eliminating Frege.

His Crisis is a great read. Makes Heidegger a lot easier to get through... seeing as he plagiarised it...

 

[gangsta deluxe]

Husserl is the jewel in the crown if you ask me. Does a good job of eliminating Frege.

His Crisis is a great read. Makes Heidegger a lot easier to get through... seeing as he plagiarised it...

I agree, although I dont have an in depth knowledge of Husserl.

However, the Atomists like Frege and Russell were eliminated by many. For example, Kripke destroyed them on proper names. Im glad he did. I hate tautologies.

 

[thatswhatimtalkinabout]

I don't wish to take anything away from OOgac at all, his posts are extremely funny and he is obviously very quick-witted, but his ability to express his thoughts is enhanced by his access to software. In this particular instance I will have to cast my vote for raw talent.

Just in regard to this comment DM, whilst it is fine to say he has superior tools, he also has to have superior knowledge to use those tools.
You don't just open photoshop or imageready and things happen by themselves.

In anycase, I have voted for oogac because his work on the heat maps was outstanding and probably the best thing I have seen on the forum in the time I have been here.

Biff, unlucky mate, but I have already nominated you for May potent mind for your work in this thread.

Both fantastic posters and both equally deserving.