Teams Arizona Cardinals - The Buzzsaw

[Wizard]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Pedigree/exposure is a big thing in NFL. I mean really, look at the history of the NFL. It's all about coaching trees and about people who grew up around football. Parcells, Belichick, Pioli, Haley snr, Haley jnr, Harbaugh, Harbaugh, Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, Mangini, Kiffin, Kiffin, Walsh, Davis, Cowher, Whisenhunt, Tomlin, etc etc. Whatever the names, the point is, pedigree and exposure matter a great deal.

As for Haley himself, he just took Cardinals to the SB, had a top rated passing attack, and WR stats/work, and his work in this specific field too at the Cowboys just recently (passing/wr coach).

To have Warner / Fitz / Q / Edge and Breaston in you offense will make you a pretty good OC IMO.

One more thing i think we need is a decent TE, especially in the running game. Someone like Heath Miller would be so valuable.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Yeah the offense was working a treat in the Superbowl before they returned to the 'throw it Larry' offense.

Pretty much the same story when he was in Dallas.

Personally I reckon the guy is an A grade A-hole that has some serious tickets on himself.

Ok, let's rephrase this debate.

The judgment that he's a great OC or not is I guess an opinionated thing. Meaning, you and I can disagree with each other about that. I can put a case forward why he is, and you can why he's not. Etc. Still a judgment call I guess until he has more body of work. Just on THAT debate, I would say his rookie OC season has been a big success with a SB, top QB rating, top WR stats, etc. Tho it can be shown Leinart hasnt developed under him (could be Leinart, not Haley, could be Haley, could be both). And that he hasnt developed a balanced offense, something that is important. Many OCs out there are passing-game experts or connoisseurs. Guys like Marc Trestman and Todd Haley are like passing-orientated too much. Still, Haley and Trestman's body of work in the passing-game is excellent. Haley to become a BETTER OC will have to develop more balance etc.

The other debate about pedigree/exposure is not really arguable. It matters and is THE reason why every coach's resume is important. Teams hire this or that guy based on his philosophy/tree, who he worked with prior, what systems he worked in, what other coaches he worked with if that other coach is part of a new team and is looking for guys to bring in to that new team, etc.

So, I can concede parts of the Haley stance I had about him being "great". That's more judgment and premature. Haley still has much to learn. He's on the rise tho. And the Cards should be able to find a suitable replacement because there are MANY excellent young/old OCs/DCs out there with pedigree/exposure to do the required job.

For instance, if the Cards want to bring in more balance, they'll hire a new OC who has pedigree/experience running certain types of systems/schemes, and/or worked with Whisenhunt in former jobs or suit Whisenhunt's "style" of offensive philosophy. So the Cards could very easily continue to have a good offense. It may not reach the passing-game heights Haley brought, but if they're after balance, they'll find one. If they're after pass-heavy, they'll find one. If they want a run-heavy offense, they'll find one. Etc.

 

[Crumpler83]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Warner's contract demands are said to be in the area of 18 million for two seasons. Only the Arizona Cardinals would be willing to meet those demands, but if the team chooses to move forward with Matt Leinart, the Chicago Bears are a team in need of an upgrade at the QB position.

http://mvn.com/outsider/2009/02/nfl-rumor-mill-warners-future-uncertain.html

I've heard a bit of the Warner to Chicago rumours as well but I really think if he is going to return to football he should and will do it with the Cards. It's the ideal situation for him. What sort of weapons will he have to throw to in Chicago? Devin Hester?

I think at his age a change of team might be detrimental to him. I dunno why but I can see a repeat of his stint as the Giants starting QB if he goes to Chicago.

 

[Chism]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

I believe in Matt even if knowone else does.

For what its worth Wiz i think Matt can be very good in this league he just needs a little more time in the starting role and in about 2 years you will see the best of him if Kurt chooses to retire or move on, if not Matt i think will look elsewhere for a starting role.

Just my thoughts but i dont doubt he has talent at all.

 

[Dan26]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

I think the playoffs can sometimes cloud the true ability of a team.

Arizona won the NFL's weakest division with a 9-7 record. If they were in the NFL South, or NFC east, they could have gone 6-10 or so.

They had a negative points differential, and ranked last in rushing.

I think they surprised some teams in the play-offs when they got their rushing game together a bit, and made some key plays at big times, but was it a case of the other teams (Carolina in particular) not being as prepared as they could have been against them?

I think, of the NFL's 32 teams, Arizona would be somewhere around the middle. 15th or 16th best. Teams like New England go 11-5 and don't even make the play-offs. Arizona have among the NFL's easiest schedules, and still could only go 9-7.

Would have been a great story to see them win, though.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

That's a good point too, Dan26 about the NFC West. It was really bad this year, so their rivals get better that will no doubt have a say in if Arizona even makes it back to the playoffs.

 

[Dan26]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

That's a good point too, Dan26 about the NFC West. It was really bad this year, so their rivals get better that will no doubt have a say in if Arizona even makes it back to the playoffs.

Not only that either.

In reagrds to the play-offs, no other sporting league in the world is as dependent on outside variables as the NFL.

With only 16 games, the "averages don't always work out." A team loses a couple of close games their season can be stuffed.

You know in baseball with each team playing 162 games, losing a close one doesn't matter because over 162 games it will even out.

The schedule in the NFL is the single biggest factor (behind talent, of course) in a team making the play-offs. Consider this: Each team plays 3 teams twice, 10 teams once and there are 17 teams who they don't even play at all! Seventeen!

Now, suppose the best 6 teams in the NFL are part of the 17 teams who a certain team doesn't have to play. That could be the difference between going 5-11, and going 12-4, because of the huge disparity in each teams schedule. Another team could have to play the best 6 teams in the NFL, while another avoids all six.

I honestly believe there are 14-15 teams who can win the Superbowl in any given season, because of these variables, and Arizona nearly winnng it this year is a very good example of the "anyone can win it" type of league that the NFL is.

I think it's the most even, and open sporting league in the world.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

I think the playoffs can sometimes cloud the true ability of a team.

Arizona won the NFL's weakest division with a 9-7 record. If they were in the NFL South, or NFC east, they could have gone 6-10 or so.

They had a negative points differential, and ranked last in rushing.

I think they surprised some teams in the play-offs when they got their rushing game together a bit, and made some key plays at big times, but was it a case of the other teams (Carolina in particular) not being as prepared as they could have been against them?

I think, of the NFL's 32 teams, Arizona would be somewhere around the middle. 15th or 16th best. Teams like New England go 11-5 and don't even make the play-offs. Arizona have among the NFL's easiest schedules, and still could only go 9-7.

Would have been a great story to see them win, though.

Don't underestimate the fact that the ARZ D 'put it in all together when needed' and that experience will go a long way to motivate them to go another step.

We can be traditional in the way we think that you need a highly ranked D to be competitive but things can fall apart just as easy when 'complacency' kicks in. Full credit to the Cinderella team for making a heck of a competitive game and arguably the most entertaining Supabah ever!!! Even though the Steelers were restricted on the ground, still the ARZ D have lots to improve on... more big plays required. A mis-directed QB pass isn't the type of D big play I'm referring to.

Defense WINS Championships.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Far too early to be writing off Leinart. Just hasn't had enough time to prove whether or not he's got the goods. More a maturity issue atm which can be fixed easier than any major technical shortcomings.

Still a work in progress the Cardinals. Will be interesting how they go with a tougher schedule next season, although will still have 6 relatively easy divisional games.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Not only that either.

In reagrds to the play-offs, no other sporting league in the world is as dependent on outside variables as the NFL.

With only 16 games, the "averages don't always work out." A team loses a couple of close games their season can be stuffed.

You know in baseball with each team playing 162 games, losing a close one doesn't matter because over 162 games it will even out.

The schedule in the NFL is the single biggest factor (behind talent, of course) in a team making the play-offs. Consider this: Each team plays 3 teams twice, 10 teams once and there are 17 teams who they don't even play at all! Seventeen!

Now, suppose the best 6 teams in the NFL are part of the 17 teams who a certain team doesn't have to play. That could be the difference between going 5-11, and going 12-4, because of the huge disparity in each teams schedule. Another team could have to play the best 6 teams in the NFL, while another avoids all six.

I honestly believe there are 14-15 teams who can win the Superbowl in any given season, because of these variables, and Arizona nearly winnng it this year is a very good example of the "anyone can win it" type of league that the NFL is.

I think it's the most even, and open sporting league in the world.

Good post Dan26. It's full of unpredictability which is great. Divisional games are mini play-offs, Conference games are just as critical. Losing 5 games can be diabolical in any division on any given season.. that's what makes the NFL such a Wild wacky competitive, to the final inch, mindgames, fly by your pants, heart stopping, physical crash bash opera you care to enjoy.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Another great post Dan26.

 

[Ladainian]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

I agree with Dan26 wholeheartedly, the NFL is the most even competition in the world and the rate at which things happens is amazing. On that note, even though the season was changed by the Brady injury, people may say that the SB loser from last season suffered a "hangover". Will the Cardinals suffer the same fate? I want to know if you think that one year is all it takes for a crappy team to become a SB contender, or if this process takes longer. In a hypothetical, could the Lions with a decent draft go from their 0-16 season to SB contenders in the space of one year, and if not what would be the average length of time to transform from a down the bottom team to a SB contender if all things equal, you had the best front office in the league. It's this turnaround time that makes the NFL even, the fact that the Dolphins who in one year under Parcells won the AFC East and under rookie coaches the Ravens and Falcons became good teams. Also, what is the flip side. How long does a team stay at the top before it must suffer the inevitable fall; the Colts Seahawks just to mention a few?

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Pierce: Cardinals Presence in the Superbowl a Disgrace...

It may be an "opinion piece" MSG, but the fact is his opinion still merits being shot down. Irrespective of whether Pierce was being facetious or genuine in his opinion, the publicication of the article therefore means the article wants to be commented on and given feedback.

The simple matter is, Pierce made some ok points, but also a lot of boneheaded points. And those boneheaded ones are fair game.

If he's being purely facetious too, that just lessens even more his usefulness to the world of sports writing. Either say it because you mean it, or dont say anything at all.

Also, for the record, a lot of "opinion piece" writers ARE genuinely believing what they write. So if Pierce believes what he believes then he is an idiot in those boneheaded beliefs.

 

[greennick]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

I think the Lions need a little more than one draft!

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Here's some indication the Cards have little faith in Leinart....

Free agent Kurt Warner says he needs a "few weeks" before deciding whether to play football for another season.
Team officials informed Warner that he's wanted back and he promises to talk to them again before any decision is made. Warner also said he'd like to "finish his career in Arizona," a strong sign that he wants to keep playing.

From rotoworld

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

I think the Lions need a little more than one draft!

You don't rebuild through the draft in the NFL, you rebuild through FA.

Look at every team that's quickly rebounded, they all come on the back of some important FA signings.

 

[Sven]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

You don't rebuild through the draft in the NFL, you rebuild through FA.

Look at every team that's quickly rebounded, they all come on the back of some important FA signings.

I don't necessarily agree with you there JD. I think its a combination of both. Some positions drafted have an immediate impact on a team (OT and RB come to mind), some take a couple of seasons to have an impact (WR, CB) and others, notably QB, can take an indeterminate amount of time. There are always exceptions to this, with some elite players stepping straight into the starting lineup, and some never making it. So it is possible to have an imediate boost to your team via the draft.

Free-agency is also a two edged sword, I don't have any stats I can back this up with, but it would appear that a lot of high profile free-agent signings have little benefit in the short term, and it can take at least a season to get the most out of some free-agents.

If you have a look at the Vikings, who haven't been really big free-agent players over the years, with just a couple of blockbuster signings (Steve Richardson, Jared Allen) I'd tend to lean towards free-agency having the biggest impact, but the draft (notably Adrian Peterson) has also helped out the team enormously.

IMO the biggest factor with any team's rebuilding plan's is there salary cap situation, and that's where a great "capologist" will allow a team a multitude of options as far as team rebuilding is concerned.

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

The draft is more of a crap shoot than FA.

Early draft picks can be more of a curse than a blessing and some of those rookie contracts can have you in cap hell in no time.

The realty though is that teams like Miami & Atlanta this year, the 'bounce' probably comes more from utilizing what you already have than it does from any of the additions you bring in.

If you look at the Lions they are a classic case of this point. No shortage of draft help there in the past few years and it all accounted for naught. It won't be the draft that gets them off the bottom, it will smart personnel decisions based on what they already have and what they can extract from FA.

 

[Wizard]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Here's some indication the Cards have little faith in Leinart....



From rotoworld

How is that an indication on Leinart, it just means they want Warner back. And after this season why wouldn't they.

Just on Haley again. It may be just me but after watching all games this season i dont think he has a massive play book, and seems to stick to the tried and true pretty well all the time.
For example, i think we must have had all of 4 plays in his playbook for when the ball is inside the 5 this season.
1. Send Larry to the back corner of the endzone for a jump ball.
2. Q lined up in the slot on the right running a crossing route.
3. Screen and dump off the Higtower.
4. Hightower up the gut.

Thats about all we used when inside the 5 all season, it worked a lot but is a relection on some of the defenses that they couldnt stop it.
In the end this could have cost us the game on the weekend as a good DC had us figured out and got a INT and ran it the other way for a TD.

 

[stugots]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

is his sideline behavior is anything to go by, Haley may a find a HC gig a very difficult experience as he seems to be perfecting the art of getting players offside.

With only 16 games, the "averages don't always work out." A team loses a couple of close games their season can be stuffed.

exactly right & the very reason the season should be extended, the price often paid for a couple poor performances is just too great.

 

[Dagless]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

is his sideline behavior is anything to go by, Haley may a find a HC gig a very difficult experience as he seems to be perfecting the art of getting players offside.




exactly right & the very reason the season should be extended, the price often paid for a couple poor performances is just too great.

So you would prefer giving the middle of the road teams an 'easier entrance' into the playoffs?

You need to play for 16 games of the year... You can't do it, tough t***ies, you don't deserve to make it.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

I think the Lions need a little more than one draft!

You do know that our two time SB winning LB, Larry Foote, is thinking of returning to Detroit? With Lawrence Timmons stepping into his role, besides the Steelers have a handful contracts to make or break. I say keep Timmons and ship out Larry. Saves the Rooney's a packet!

From the SB XL roster, the Steelers have only 23 from the initial list meaning more than 30 players have moved on/ retired. The Cards will probably wanna keep much of their offense intact and work on the D.

If offered serious $$$, I'd jump at the chance to make the Cardinals a better team.

I agree that FA is the way to go to steadily build your franchise. Some of the stories (diamonds in the rough) have been bums that went undrafted and turned into Champions/ great players. The NFL Draft has long been a crapshoot in more ways than one. No wonder I don't really pay much attention to College football & the draft in general.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Wizard, let's go over this....

They drafted Leinart first round as their franchise QB.
Such a player means he starts all his rookie year, growing pains, but is THE man, any vet QB is a back-up just to cover for injuries and mentor the starter.
By season 2, the rookie has got the playbook down pat, and commands authority in the team.
Thru season 2 and season 3, the rookie has become a dominant figure in the NFL as a young star in the league.
The vet retires or continues playing musical chairs to other teams.

Let's look at what actually happened...

Leinart struggles, Leinart boozes up, Leinart doesnt study film, so they have to bring in the back-up vet to start for the rest of that first season.
Warner shows his skills and intelligence, and is brought back for season 2 to compete for the starter job.
During camp and pre-season Warner continues to out-do Leinart, who isnt "all there".
Team forced to declare Warner starter.
Cards on the back of Warner go to the SB.
Warner is 37! He is on the brink of retirement, Leinart is a first round draft pick franchise QB, spends all of his second season on the bench.
Third season, the Cards are making big overtures to Warner they want him to stay.

That very story is synonymous with every QB bust in NFL history.

Leinart could end up like Plunkett or Gannon. High draft picks who floundered for years, bouncing around as back-ups, then picked up in FA by a team like the Raiders, who then get the most out of that player now aged 30-35 year old. Or Leinart could end up like the majority of the same stories---just an eternal back-up who ends up retiring early and going into some other kind of endeavor like QB coach or something.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Also I'm with Sven on this....

You rebuild thru the draft primarily and a combination of FA too.
You're talking about 7-10 players drafted.
It might be a crapshoot, but that's how you build.
The aim is to hit all 7-10 picks, or get a good percentage like 50% not busts.
Do this a couple years in a row and you have a top team.
The Dolphins hit about 80% of their draft picks (parcells eyes), and they all were immediate contributors/starters....Long, Merling, Langford, Bess, etc. Then they got Porter and Pennington (a couple big name FA), and finished with a couple of other no name FAs.
Dont forget there was at least 1 good draft pick from Cameron's era (Ginn).
If Parcells hadnt come to the team, the Dolphins would've needed another 5-10 years drafting to get better due to Cameron's poor scouting.

All up about 6 draft picks that all came good, 2 big names, and 2-4 no-name contributors.
As FAs often cost a damn lot of money, the draft is most important because you can acquire every season around 7-10 players. A lot of them very cheaply and who will remain cheap for the first 5 years of their contract.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Arizona Cardinals - Fluke or For Real??

Raiders (admittedly not good drafters), but look how their talent level now looks after they drafted over 2 seasons....

Oren Oneal, Zach Miller, Mario Henderson, Jamarcus Russell, Darren McFadden, Michael Bush, Johnnie Lee Higgins, Chaz Shilens.

Just there you have all the key components of an offense....FB, TE, LT, QB, RB, WR. All starters now.

Or look at the Chiefs draft picks or the Texans. Each of those teams have a bunch of starters/future stars that either make up a whole defense (Texans) or whole offense (Raiders) or a combination of both (Chiefs).

Now compare with the FA signings all those teams have done.
FAs are more like a key big name FA or two to sure up another position, but a bunch of no-names or bums make up the rest of the FAs.