ASADA seeks evidence from Fairfax

[Vankri]

There's no hypothetical scenario I can think of under which Dank would go to extreme lengths to hide TB4 use in 2012 and then admit to TB4 use in a 2013 interview.

There is absolutely NO hypothetical scenario involving Essendon not using TB4 that would explain what has happened in the past 18 months. They either have used it or don't know what they have and have not used, (but at the very least Dank would know and he was Essendon). It's been a long journey and if Essendon was convinced they never, ever used TB4 you would have heard it. TB4 is a prohibited substance and Essendon have been accused of using it, if they were falsely accused you would have heard Little or someone else say 'we never used TB4", outright, straight away.

When you have used a substance you thought wasn't banned under some elaborate plan from your sports scientist to circumvent rules (compounding chemist) you come up with statements like "we believe we haven't ingested anything illegal or harmful" and you fight the investigation on process rather than substance.

It's the only scenario that makes sense if you are to believe that Essendon knows what they injected in players. Funnily enough, the club is leaving the door open to the "we didn't know what was injected/we have no records" excuse, just in case they don't win on their legal process fight. Otherwise you would have heard that defence too by now and would have been able to read the full list of substances used at Essendon.

 

[FuManchu]

There is absolutely NO hypothetical scenario involving Essendon not using TB4 that would explain what has happened in the past 18 months. They either have used it (or don't know what they have and have not used, but at the very least Dank would know and he was Essendon). It's been a long journey and if Essendon was convinced they never, ever used TB4 you would have heard it. TB4 is a prohibited substance and Essendon have been accused of using it, if they were falsely accused you would have heard Little or someone else say 'we never used TB4", straight away.

When you have used a substance you thought wasn't banned under some elaborate plan from your sports scientist to circumvent rules (compounding chemist) you come up with statements like "we believe we haven't ingested anything illegal or harmful" and you fight the investigation on process rather than substance.

It's the only scenario that makes sense if you are to believe that Essendon knows what they injected in players. Funnily enough, the club is leaving to door open to the "we didn't know what was injected/we have no records" excuse, just in case they don't win on their legal process fight. Otherwise you would have heard that defence too by now and would have been able to read the full list of substances used at Essendon.

But you still have to wonder why they are trying to make certain evidence inadmissable.

It smacks of one thing and one thing only. They know that ASADA have the goods to prosecute a succesful case.

 

[Mutt]

Describe to me these hypothetical scenarios which have Dank going to extraordinary lengths to hide TB4 use in 2012 and then revealing TB4 use in a 2013 interview.
My closed mind can't see them.

There are pages and pages of explanations that you refuse to read with an open mind. Stop wasting everyone's time with your bullshit binary explanations.

Here's what I think may have happened (but there are other explanations...):

1. Dank understands that leaving a paper trail is a bad thing if you are going to cheat.
2. Dank believes that by having the ingredients of an S0 substance compounded by a pharmacist, the substance is not caught up in the WADA S0 category - it is unclassified. Dank thinks he can outsmart the idiots at WADA and ASADA by compounding S0 substances.
3. Even though he believes he can avoid the S0 classifications for AOD-9604 and TB-4, Dank adheres to point 1 above and plays it safe, ensuring that the TB-4 invoice is altered to show a substance that isn't even S0 classified (TA-1). I assume Dank destroyed the invoices for AOD-9604, again adhering to point 1 above.
4. In the meantime, Dank doesn't realise that the classification of TB-4 changed from Category S0 to Category S2 before he administered it to the EFC players.
5. Smart journos can spot an egotistical bullshit artist a mile away and pander to Danks' ego, getting him to brag about the breathtaking science that is the magic of Steven Dank. During this egotistical show-off session, Dank goes to great lengths to explain the benefits of the TB-4 that he was administering and even describes the dosages. Dank asks that these dosages not be published (presumably because they are his Intellectual Property.) Dank is injudicious about disclosing the use of this "compounded S0" substance because his ego is much stronger than any residual concern he might have that compounding the substances will avoid an S0 classification.
6. Dank is told during the interview that TB-4 is classified as an S2 substance. Dank is rocked but is not quick enough thinking on his feet and so, instead of changing his story and lying, Dank bumbles around and says he'll get his people to talk to ASADA.
7. Knowing that he's made a terrible omission by not regularly checking the classification of TB-4, Dank tries to bullshit the reporters the day after his interview, saying that he made a mistake over and over in the interview by saying he was administering TB-4 when instead it was something else altogether.

ASADA have asked for the recording of the interview with Dank just as insurance in case Justice Middleton rules some of the evidence they've collected to be inadmissible. In the view of McDevitt, the recording of Dank's session with Baker and McKenzie will be enough to convince any objective observer that Dank was telling the truth about TB-4 in the interview and that he was floored by the revelation that it is classified S2.

Had Dank really been administering the EFC players with something other than TB-4, he would have immediately realised and corrected his mistake during the interview. There is no way that Thymomodulin could be classified as S2. Dank would have immediately realised this and corrected his mistake if he had been using Thymomodulin.

 

[FuManchu]

There are pages and pages of explanations that you refuse to read with an open mind. Stop wasting everyone's time with your bullshit binary explanations.

Here's what I think may have happened (but there are other explanations...):

1. Dank understands that leaving a paper trail is a bad thing if you are going to cheat.
2. Dank believes that by having the ingredients of an S0 substance compounded by a pharmacist, the substance is not caught up in the WADA S0 category - it is unclassified. Dank thinks he can outsmart the idiots at WADA and ASADA by compounding S0 substances.
3. Even though he believes he can avoid the S0 classifications for AOD-9604 and TB-4, Dank adheres to point 1 above and plays it safe, ensuring that the TB-4 invoice is altered to show a substance that isn't even S0 classified (TA-1). I assume Dank destroyed the invoices for AOD-9604, again adhering to point 1 above.
4. In the meantime, Dank doesn't realise that the classification of TB-4 changed from Category S0 to Category S2 before he administered it to the EFC players.
5. Smart journos can spot an egotistical bullshit artist a mile away and pander to Danks' ego, getting him to brag about the breathtaking science that is the magic of Steven Dank. During this egotistical show-off session, Dank goes to great lengths to explain the benefits of the TB-4 that he was administering and even describes the dosages. Dank asks that these dosages not be published (presumably because they are his Intellectual Property.) Dank is injudicious about disclosing the use of this "compounded S0" substance because his ego is much stronger than any residual concern he might have that compounding the substances will avoid an S0 classification.
6. Dank is told during the interview that TB-4 is classified as an S2 substance. Dank is rocked but is not quick enough thinking on his feet and so, instead of changing his story and lying, Dank bumbles around and says he'll get his people to talk to ASADA.
7. Knowing that he's made a terrible omission by not regularly checking the classification of TB-4, Dank tries to bullshit the reporters the day after his interview, saying that he made a mistake over and over in the interview by saying he was administering TB-4 when instead it was something else altogether.

ASADA have asked for the recording of the interview with Dank just an insurance in case Justice Middleton rules some of the evidence they've collected to be inadmissible. In the view of McDevitt, the recording of Dank's session with Baker and McKenzie will be enough to convince any objective observer that Dank was telling the truth about TB-4 in the interview and that he was floored by the revelation that it is classified S2.

Had Dank really been administering the EFC players with something other than TB-4, he would have immediately realised and corrected his mistake during the interview. There is no way that Thymomodulin could be classified as S2. Dank would have immediately realised this and corrected his mistake if he had been using Thymomodulin.

Its not that hard to believe this scenario.

Dank's ego would be such that he thought he had all the answers.

i'm surprised he hasnt taken WADA to court for changing the classification

I'm surprised he hasnt taken ASADA to court for following WADA's classification

I'm surprised he hasnt take me to court for writi..........................................

 

[andrewb]

There is absolutely NO hypothetical scenario involving Essendon not using TB4 that would explain what has happened in the past 18 months. They either have used it (or don't know what they have and have not used, but at the very least Dank would know and he was Essendon). It's been a long journey and if Essendon was convinced they never, ever used TB4 you would have heard it. TB4 is a prohibited substance and Essendon have been accused of using it, if they were falsely accused you would have heard Little or someone else say 'we never used TB4", straight away.

When you have used a substance you thought wasn't banned under some elaborate plan from your sports scientist to circumvent rules (compounding chemist) you come up with statements like "we believe we haven't ingested anything illegal or harmful" and you fight the investigation on process rather than substance.

It's the only scenario that makes sense if you are to believe that Essendon knows what they injected in players. Funnily enough, the club is leaving to door open to the "we didn't know what was injected/we have no records" excuse, just in case they don't win on their legal process fight. Otherwise you would have heard that defence too by now and would have been able to read the full list of substances used at Essendon.

I'm not denying that there is some evidence that TB4 was at Essendon.

Perhaps Charter spiked a batch of Thymosin with TB4 in order to blackmail players.. who really knows?

All I'm saying is that Dank wouldn't have spent months hiding TB4 use only to announce it in an interview. It simply doesn't make sense.

 

[FuManchu]

I'm not denying that there is some evidence that TB4 was at Essendon.

Perhaps Charter spiked a batch of Thymosin with TB4 in order to blackmail players.. who really knows?

All I'm saying is that Dank wouldn't have spent months hiding TB4 use only to announce it in an interview. It simply doesn't make sense.

OMG!!!!

A truckload of tin foil to andrewb pronto!!!

 

[Albert Ross]

5. Smart journos can spot an egotistical bullshit artist a mile away and pander to Danks' ego, getting him to brag about the breathtaking science that is the magic of Steven Dank.

So much this. The whole saga really stems from this and this alone and the ability of most to spot it quickly other than the folk at Essendon who saw it eventually but too late.

 

[Mutt]

I'm not denying that there is some evidence that TB4 was at Essendon.

Perhaps Charter spiked a batch of Thymosin with TB4 in order to blackmail players.. who really knows?

All I'm saying is that Dank wouldn't have spent months hiding TB4 use only to announce it in an interview. It simply doesn't make sense.

What the fek happened to your binary explanations??? Now you've dreamed up an incredibly unlikely conspiracy involving Charters blackmailing players.

FFS wake up and smell the roses before you and your mates lose the footy club you love. It's not too late for you guys to regain control of EFC and find a way out of this mess.

 

[andrewb]

What the fek happened to your binary explanations??? Now you've dreamed up an incredibly unlikely conspiracy involving Charters blackmailing players.

FFS wake up and smell the roses before you and your mates lose the footy club you love. It's not too late for you guys to regain control of EFC and find a way out of this mess.

This issue in question is still binary. Dank is not stupid enough to go to extraordinary lengths to deliberately conceal TB4 use in 2012 and then reveal TB4 use in 2013. That much is obvious.

It doesn't necessarily mean that TB4 was not at the club, I'm assuming that there's evidence that Charters supplied TB4 raw materials to Alavi and I'm also assuming that there is some evidence to suggest that the end product might have made it to EFC, otherwise we wouldn't have Show Cause Notices.

There are pages and pages of explanations that you refuse to read with an open mind. Stop wasting everyone's time with your bullshit binary explanations.

Here's what I think may have happened (but there are other explanations...):

1. Dank understands that leaving a paper trail is a bad thing if you are going to cheat.
2. Dank believes that by having the ingredients of an S0 substance compounded by a pharmacist, the substance is not caught up in the WADA S0 category - it is unclassified. Dank thinks he can outsmart the idiots at WADA and ASADA by compounding S0 substances.
3. Even though he believes he can avoid the S0 classifications for AOD-9604 and TB-4, Dank adheres to point 1 above and plays it safe, ensuring that the TB-4 invoice is altered to show a substance that isn't even S0 classified (TA-1). I assume Dank destroyed the invoices for AOD-9604, again adhering to point 1 above.
4. In the meantime, Dank doesn't realise that the classification of TB-4 changed from Category S0 to Category S2 before he administered it to the EFC players.
5. Smart journos can spot an egotistical bullshit artist a mile away and pander to Danks' ego, getting him to brag about the breathtaking science that is the magic of Steven Dank. During this egotistical show-off session, Dank goes to great lengths to explain the benefits of the TB-4 that he was administering and even describes the dosages. Dank asks that these dosages not be published (presumably because they are his Intellectual Property.) Dank is injudicious about disclosing the use of this "compounded S0" substance because his ego is much stronger than any residual concern he might have that compounding the substances will avoid an S0 classification.
6. Dank is told during the interview that TB-4 is classified as an S2 substance. Dank is rocked but is not quick enough thinking on his feet and so, instead of changing his story and lying, Dank bumbles around and says he'll get his people to talk to ASADA.
7. Knowing that he's made a terrible omission by not regularly checking the classification of TB-4, Dank tries to bullshit the reporters the day after his interview, saying that he made a mistake over and over in the interview by saying he was administering TB-4 when instead it was something else altogether.

ASADA have asked for the recording of the interview with Dank just as insurance in case Justice Middleton rules some of the evidence they've collected to be inadmissible. In the view of McDevitt, the recording of Dank's session with Baker and McKenzie will be enough to convince any objective observer that Dank was telling the truth about TB-4 in the interview and that he was floored by the revelation that it is classified S2.

Had Dank really been administering the EFC players with something other than TB-4, he would have immediately realised and corrected his mistake during the interview. There is no way that Thymomodulin could be classified as S2. Dank would have immediately realised this and corrected his mistake if he had been using Thymomodulin.

Ok.. we are arguing different things.

There are several people on here who think that after being interviewed by the ACC about peptide use in 2012, Dank went back and adjusted all the paperwork to reflect thymodulin (sic) / thymomodulin rather than thymosin peptide. They believe he did this to deliberately hide the use of TB4 and that this explains the physical evidence of thymomodulin at Essendon:

- Schedule of thymodulin (sic) injections
- Email from Robinson announcing thymomodulin injections from June 2012 until the grand final
- Vial of thymomodulin that was photographed
- etc.

I'm saying that he couldn't possibly have done that AND revealed TB4 use to McKenzie.

IF he was hiding the use of Thymosin Beta 4 by calling it Thymomodulin in all the documentation THEN he must have known that TB4 was banned THEREFORE he wouldn't have dropped the TB4 bombshell to McKenzie.

NOTE: There is still nothing that explains what happened to the invoice for Thymosin (Beta 4?) and Hexeralin that was refunded. That remains a frikken mystery. I believe Charters knows more about that than anyone else.

 

[questionable]

This issue in question is still binary. Dank is not stupid enough to go to extraordinary lengths to deliberately conceal TB4 use in 2012 and then reveal TB4 use in 2013. That much is obvious.

It doesn't necessarily mean that TB4 was not at the club, I'm assuming that there's evidence that Charters supplied TB4 raw materials to Alavi and I'm also assuming that there is some evidence to suggest that the end product might have made it to EFC, otherwise we wouldn't have Show Cause Notices.



Ok.. we are arguing different things.

There are several people on here who think that after being interviewed by the ACC about peptide use in 2012, Dank went back and adjusted all the paperwork to reflect thymodulin (sic) / thymomodulin rather than thymosin peptide. They believe he did this to deliberately hide the use of TB4 and that this explains the physical evidence of thymomodulin at Essendon:

- Schedule of thymodulin (sic) injections
- Email from Robinson announcing thymomodulin injections from June 2012 until the grand final
- Vial of thymomodulin that was photographed
- etc.

I'm saying that he couldn't possibly have done that AND revealed TB4 use to McKenzie.

IF he was hiding the use of Thymosin Beta 4 by calling it Thymomodulin in all the documentation THEN he must have known that TB4 was banned THEREFORE he wouldn't have dropped the TB4 bombshell to McKenzie.

NOTE: There is still nothing that explains what happened to the invoice for Thymosin (Beta 4?) and Hexeralin that was refunded. That remains a frikken mystery. I believe Charters knows more about that than anyone else.

have you considered the possibility that he did it deliberately to add plausibility to his explanation that he'd been using thymomodulin all along but referring to it as 'thymosin' and 'thymosin beta-4'?

 

[andrewb]

have you considered the possibility that he did it deliberately to add plausibility to his explanation that he'd been using thymomodulin all along but referring to it as 'thymosin' and 'thymosin beta-4'?

When did he refer to it as thymosin beta-4?

 

[I Rock]

This issue in question is still binary. Dank is not stupid enough to go to extraordinary lengths to deliberately conceal TB4 use in 2012 and then reveal TB4 use in 2013. That much is obvious.

It doesn't necessarily mean that TB4 was not at the club, I'm assuming that there's evidence that Charters supplied TB4 raw materials to Alavi and I'm also assuming that there is some evidence to suggest that the end product might have made it to EFC, otherwise we wouldn't have Show Cause Notices.



Ok.. we are arguing different things.

There are several people on here who think that after being interviewed by the ACC about peptide use in 2012, Dank went back and adjusted all the paperwork to reflect thymodulin (sic) / thymomodulin rather than thymosin peptide. They believe he did this to deliberately hide the use of TB4 and that this explains the physical evidence of thymomodulin at Essendon:

- Schedule of thymodulin (sic) injections
- Email from Robinson announcing thymomodulin injections from June 2012 until the grand final
- Vial of thymomodulin that was photographed
- etc.

I'm saying that he couldn't possibly have done that AND revealed TB4 use to McKenzie.

IF he was hiding the use of Thymosin Beta 4 by calling it Thymomodulin in all the documentation THEN he must have known that TB4 was banned THEREFORE he wouldn't have dropped the TB4 bombshell to McKenzie.

NOTE: There is still nothing that explains what happened to the invoice for Thymosin (Beta 4?) and Hexeralin that was refunded. That remains a frikken mystery. I believe Charters knows more about that than anyone else.

You make some interesting points, however you need to consider that the ACC never spoke to Dank in specifics towards supplements that may be WADA banned/prohibited however not illegal by law. The ACC by all reports only cared about illegal supply and the avenues and groups involved in that manner, not all the in's and outs of professional sports use of WADA compliant or non compliant substances.

Just because Dank spoke to the ACC and (potentially) changed records of supply. Doesn't mean he knew after speaking to the ACC that TB-4 had changed category listing from S0 to S2.

 

[questionable]

When did he refer to it as thymosin beta-4?

when he ordered it from charter. are you playing dumb?

 

[Mutt]

This issue in question is still binary. Dank is not stupid enough to go to extraordinary lengths to deliberately conceal TB4 use in 2012 and then reveal TB4 use in 2013. That much is obvious.

It doesn't necessarily mean that TB4 was not at the club, I'm assuming that there's evidence that Charters supplied TB4 raw materials to Alavi and I'm also assuming that there is some evidence to suggest that the end product might have made it to EFC, otherwise we wouldn't have Show Cause Notices.



Ok.. we are arguing different things.

There are several people on here who think that after being interviewed by the ACC about peptide use in 2012, Dank went back and adjusted all the paperwork to reflect thymodulin (sic) / thymomodulin rather than thymosin peptide. They believe he did this to deliberately hide the use of TB4 and that this explains the physical evidence of thymomodulin at Essendon:

- Schedule of thymodulin (sic) injections
- Email from Robinson announcing thymomodulin injections from June 2012 until the grand final
- Vial of thymomodulin that was photographed
- etc.

I'm saying that he couldn't possibly have done that AND revealed TB4 use to McKenzie.

IF he was hiding the use of Thymosin Beta 4 by calling it Thymomodulin in all the documentation THEN he must have known that TB4 was banned THEREFORE he wouldn't have dropped the TB4 bombshell to McKenzie.

NOTE: There is still nothing that explains what happened to the invoice for Thymosin (Beta 4?) and Hexeralin that was refunded. That remains a frikken mystery. I believe Charters knows more about that than anyone else.

Carefully read the alternative explanation I offered and you'll see that it is quite possible that Dank did all of the things he's accused of doing on here, including injecting TB-4 into your playing group.

What you are not prepared to concede is that you don't know what happened. None of us here on BigFooty really know what went down. There are multiple possible scenarios we could construct based on what little facts we do have.

 

[tesla1962]

The various agencies will proceed with a case they believe has a high chance of winning based on evidence and comfortable with the process being followed.

That's not to say they will win them all. And that's not to say that the cases they have lost meant the other party was innocent.

keeping a foot in all camps there so whatever happens you can cling to your belief LOL

 

[interestedoz1]

Don't show cause notices only get issued when the anti doping organisation has a rock solid case?

 

[FuManchu]

keeping a foot in all camps there so whatever happens you can cling to your belief LOL

Yeah, it's called reality. You lot should try it sometime.

 

[questionable]

i'm not sure if anyone agrees with me, but i honestly think dank did that interview with nick mckenzie and confused TB4 with thymomodulin on purpose.

it doesn't make sense that he would confuse them in 2013. the AFL charge sheet even states that he found out TB4 was banned in may 2012 and provides evidence of him trying to cover his tracks with "thy(mo)modulin" after that point. pretending to mistake one for the other in 2013 could only be an attempt to add plausibility to his claim that it was thymomodulin all along, despite him repeatedly referring to it as thymosin or TB4.

is there anything i'm missing that rules this out as a possibility?

 

[Admiral Byng]

It's possible that Dank simply didn't know (either too stupid or too lazy to do proper research) that there were multiple forms of Thymosin, some banned, some not; and that he thought they were all the same and used the terms interchangeably.

 

[tesla1962]

Yeah, it's called reality. You lot should try it sometime.

you say reality i see conformational bias

 

[Bobby Charlton]

Don't show cause notices only get issued when the anti doping organisation has a rock solid case?

Not according to McDevitt. He says he just has to be "comfortably satisfied" that a violation occurred and he accepts that as the case proceeds the burden of proof rises.
If the case later fails McDevitt can justify his action and state that he was comfortably satisfied at the time but respects the ultimate decision.

 

[blue harvest]

There's no hypothetical scenario I can think of under which Dank would go to extreme lengths to hide TB4 use in 2012 and then admit to TB4 use in a 2013 interview.

You've been presented with several valid scenarios but you are choosing to ignore them and end up calling people dumb and delusional.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Not according to McDevitt. He says he just has to be "comfortably satisfied" that a violation occurred and he accepts that as the case proceeds the burden of proof rises.
If the case later fails McDevitt can justify his action and state that he was comfortably satisfied at the time but respects the ultimate decision.

he also said certainty over speed, didn't he?

 

[FuManchu]

you say reality i see conformational bias

One of your lot thinks Charters set up the club to bribe the players.... I think yours and his mother ship might be ready for you both.

 

[Mutt]

Not according to McDevitt. He says he just has to be "comfortably satisfied" that a violation occurred and he accepts that as the case proceeds the burden of proof rises.
If the case later fails McDevitt can justify his action and state that he was comfortably satisfied at the time but respects the ultimate decision.

It is possible that McDevitt is on a fishing expedition. Not at all likely, but possible.

What are you going to do if he's not?

Now that you and your cronies at EFC have pissed off the entire footy world, what happens if you are wrong and McDevitt has the goods on you all?

I'll show you: