ASADA turn the screw - "difficult decisions" for players

[IanW]

Let's assume that it was TB4 for the purposes of this argument.

The athlete could say that they looked at the WADA banned list in 2012: http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...ed-list/2012/WADA_Prohibited_List_2012_EN.pdf and they checked the ASADA website and there was no mention of any type of Thymosin.

So is it the athlete's responsibility to know that TB-4, which they weren't told they were given, falls under the "as well as any other growth factor affecting muscle, tendon or ligament protein synthesis/degradation, vascularisation, energy utilization, regenerative capacity or fibre type switching; and other substances with similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s)." clause?

Or are they supposed to know that Thymosin Beta 4 (which they weren't told they were given, falls under the clause S0 - "Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer drugs, veterinary medicines) is prohibited at all times.", whereas Thymosin A (which they were told they were given) is approved for medical use.

Read the first post in this. It'll make things clearer.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...ly-charged-with-thymosin-beta-issues.1003416/

 

[legend166]

Sure they can, but what if what they're being given isn't what they were told, nor what was on the label?

You can't use that as a defence. Now, I don't think the Essendon players deliberately went out to take PEDs. But think of this scenario:

A sprinter and his coach get together and decide they want to take some PEDs to help knock a few miliseconds off his time. The coach puts together a phony permission slip saying all drugs are WADA approved. Then he "secretly" (wink wink, nudge nudge) gives the guy HGH instead. But hey, the athlete can plead plausible deniability and say it's on the coach. Heck, they could even work it so it's on the supplier and not them, because they supplier probably doesn't care what WADA would do to them.

It's too easy to use that defence. That's why strict liability has to exist.

 

[Big Sim]

Super timmy has come out this morning and said "the players have been duped"{yes i know its the latest excuse}but if the players say they were duped,the first one to say "The club knew" wins a prize and the club gets another hit.

Timmy the father and Timmy the club man having a bit of an internal struggle.

The duping argument only works for the club if they stick to the rogue elements defence but they are too scared of Dank to go there. Rock meet hard place.

 

[jenny61_99]

I believe that brings it down to 12 months. Then down to 6 months if they assist the investigation (which presumably they'll get as individuals, they can't be blamed for Essendon's paper shredder)

Firstly, it has to be SUBSTANTIAL assistance. That is actual names, dates, details etc etc. You will also notice the new head of ASADA said the words players "MAY" receive a reduction in penalty. Remember Sandor Earle? He admitted to taking and trafficking in a hope he would receive a reduction in penalty. According to ASADA, he didn't provide substantial assistance and doesn't qualify.

 

[BlakeyNoFlakey]

Super timmy has come out this morning and said "the players have been duped"{yes i know its the latest excuse}but if the players say they were duped,the first one to say "The club knew" wins a prize and the club gets another hit.

It's a valid defence, but even if they can prove that they took TB4 unknowingly it will only reduce the penalty by a maximum of 50% according to the article in the OP. Given the minimum penalty is 2 years, that does not bode well for them.

 

[hoianbulldog]

Interesting that McDevitt wouldn't speak with many of the key players in the lead up to SC notices. As soon as they are out he is on the radio doing interviews providing players with some free advice. I also heard last night that the players were advised not to discuss specifics with the club (is was Barrett so may be BS).

It appears ASADA are driving a wedge between players and the club and will be interesting to see how this plays out. The players really need to stop listening to the club and start looking after their own interests but history tells us they will most likely follow like mindless sheep led by Watson(s).

 

[Simon Wiggins]

Firstly, it has to be SUBSTANTIAL assistance. That is actual names, dates, details etc etc. You will also notice the new head of ASADA said the words players "MAY" receive a reduction in penalty. Remember Sandor Earle? He admitted to taking and trafficking in a hope he would receive a reduction in penalty. According to ASADA, he didn't provide substantial assistance and doesn't qualify.

Aren't the reductions part of the infraction notice proceedings? In which case it'd be the AFL's call, and they'll be super keen to include any reductions they can. WADA would probably appeal

EDIT: In fact that's exactly how the Saad case went

 

[Badesumofu]

So is it the athlete's responsibility to know that TB-4, which they weren't told they were given, falls under the "as well as any other growth factor affecting muscle, tendon or ligament protein synthesis/degradation, vascularisation, energy utilization, regenerative capacity or fibre type switching; and other substances with similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s)." clause?

Yep

This. It is the athlete's responsibility to find out exactly what they are being given, and then find out if it is allowed. You find out if something is allowed by checking with ASADA. When you do that, you get a receipt as proof that you have checked. Why are we still having to explain the basics to people?

 

[hoianbulldog]

you might find their illustrious and decorated leader is the first to squeal.......I will talk but let me keep my brownlow might be his first sentence.

So brave..............leadership and Watson should never be mentioned in the same breath. EVER!

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Can anyone enlighten me about the length of penalties?

ABC reported this morning that it was a mandatory 2 years, yet a lot of reports say "up to" 2 years and the 6 months penalty has been bandied about here quite a bit. This would seem incredibly lenient even with an admission of guilt.

And can it be served in the off season?

Mandatory 2 years. If you admit to wrongdoing and can prove you weren't at fault then it can come down to 12 months, if you also roll on others and provide compelling evidence you can get it down to 6 months.

The suspension can be backdated to when you voluntarily suspend yourself whilst waiting for tribunal case (see Saad).

During your suspension you are not allowed near a registered sporting club nor are you allowed to receive payment from a registered sporting club or be trained by or with people employed by a registered sporting club.

You only get 6 months if you admit guilt, aren't at fault and roll on someone else.

 

[andrewb]

Read the first post in this. It'll make things clearer.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...ly-charged-with-thymosin-beta-issues.1003416/

So a footballer straight out of school is supposed to know to google "beta thymosin peptide bibliography"

I'd probably look up what was on the label, i.e. thymosin, and maybe WADA.

Here is what a google search for "thymosin WADA" would have brought up in early 2012:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...ce=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:,cd_max:1/3/2012&tbm=

 

[Thrawn]

And can it be served in the off season?

I don't think so. It was mentioned a few times that bans must be served during competition, so I am assuming that means from when the preseason starts to whenever the team bombs out of the finals or the final round of the season.

 

[Mutt]

Isn't it likely that the players signed consent forms to take Thymosin, not at the time knowing that there are two forms of Thymosin, one of which is banned?

Had they known that one form of Thymosin could get them a two year ban, surely at least some players would have insisted that the consent form be amended to clearly show they consent to take the legal form of Thymosin. That apparently didn't happen, so presumably the players had no idea that by consenting to Thymosin they could potentially be injected with a WADA banned substance.

If the circumstantial evidence is very strong that the form of Thymosin administered was the banned TB4, then the players are cooked by their own ignorance and lack of due diligence.

By admitting that they actually received injections of what is highly likely to be TB4, a player could admit that they they did inadvertently take a banned substance and could co-operate further by detailing what they know of the 2012 supplements program.

First player(s) that gets to that point wins a significantly reduced ban for disclosing their own supplements use and possibly a further significant reduction by providing evidence to assist the investigation of those who engineered and administered the supplements program. The rest fry.

 

[Ant_]

So a footballer straight out of school is supposed to know to google "beta thymosin peptide bibliography"

I'd probably look up what was on the label, i.e. thymosin, and maybe WADA.

Here is what a google search for "thymosin WADA" would have brought up in early 2012:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=thymosin wada&espv=2&biw=966&bih=986&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:,cd_max:1/3/2012&tbm=

They all do a training course on this.

 

[IanW]

So a footballer straight out of school is supposed to know to google "beta thymosin peptide bibliography"

I'd probably look up what was on the label, i.e. thymosin, and maybe WADA.

Here is what a google search for "thymosin WADA" would have brought up in early 2012:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=thymosin wada&espv=2&biw=966&bih=986&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:,cd_max:1/3/2012&tbm=

They could, I dunno, talk to their union, or their agent or phone the hotline.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Aren't the reductions part of the infraction notice proceedings? In which case it'd be the AFL's call, and they'll be super keen to include any reductions they can. WADA would probably appeal

EDIT: In fact that's exactly how the Saad case went

ASADA appealed, not WADA

 

[jenny61_99]

Aren't the reductions part of the infraction notice proceedings? In which case it'd be the AFL's call, and they'll be super keen to include any reductions they can. WADA would probably appeal

EDIT: In fact that's exactly how the Saad case went

ASADA make recommendations to the AFL re penalties. They are the only ones that know if they got substantial assistance. Therefore, they will notify the AFL tribunal that such and such is banned but receives x amount off for substantial assistance.

 

[jenny61_99]

So a footballer straight out of school is supposed to know to google "beta thymosin peptide bibliography"

I'd probably look up what was on the label, i.e. thymosin, and maybe WADA.

Here is what a google search for "thymosin WADA" would have brought up in early 2012:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=thymosin wada&espv=2&biw=966&bih=986&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:,cd_max:1/3/2012&tbm=

Second listing has this:

Professional AthleteIf you are a professional athlete please consult the ASADA or WADA guidelines and your coach, club and/or sporting body before using this peptide.

 

[tesla1962]

You are a Lady yes?

Lol Why? Are you suggesting women see issues to do with fairness more clearly or are you just being sexist?

 

[Hill2Pav]

Interesting comments, fight and it may be 2 years, rollover and assist ASADA and potentially 6 months;

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...al-discounts-on-penalties-20140613-zs6i5.html

Any Essendon players found guilty of breaching anti-doping laws but are determined to have not had sufficient knowledge about what they were taking could have 75 per cent of the maximum penalty slashed.

Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority chief executive Ben McDevitt told 3AW on Friday that if any of the 34 past and present Essendon players caught up in the investigation weren’t aware of what they were taking they could face a minimum ban of one year, as opposed to the maximum of two years.

He said if players “provided substantial assistance”, including making a full admissions, there was an option of a further six months being slashed off their penalty.

 

[andrewb]

I love it how everyone on here is a revisionist genius who knows everything about peptides.

I'd be highly surprised if anyone here knew shit about peptides when this thing landed and the body of internet knowledge has exploded since 2012.

Bunch of AFL players were told they were given Thymosin, turns out it there's a chance it might have been Thymosin beta 4, in the event of which it looks like our super smart specialist sports scientist Dank has stuffed up because he thought it was legal.

And some of you expect AFL players to know better. Tragic really.

 

[coryne]

This statement is compelling. I do believe the players didn't know they were getting thymosin beta 4, and thought they were getting thymosin alpha which is allowed. So it means even if the players can prove they didn't know what they were receiving they could still face a years ban for receiving it anyway. An example of how a system that uses harsh penalties to discourage PED use in sports goes a little too far, and ends up denying natural justice.

Allowed under the WADA code but isn't approved for use in Australia without SAS approval. Do any players have SAS approval to access TA1?

 

[andrewb]

Second listing has this:

Professional AthleteIf you are a professional athlete please consult the ASADA or WADA guidelines and your coach, club and/or sporting body before using this peptide.

Haha all of which they did.

 

[hoianbulldog]

Lol Why? Are you suggesting women see issues to do with fairness more clearly or are you just being sexist?

Is this you?

 

[jenny61_99]

Haha all of which they did.

They did? They contacted ASADA and asked about thymosin? In that case they'd have a receipt number that they can show to the ADRVP. Awesome.