Win Prizes Ask an Atheist II

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Come on folks, the thread is called Ask an Atheist.

Let’s stop making it all about Christianity yet a bloody gain.

Ask us atheists some questions about atheism.

Or does being a religious believer mean saying sayonara to intellectual curiosity?

You were a Christian at one point in time yeah?
What denomination were you?
What made you change your mind?

 

[carltonchelsea]

The ancient Canaanites from whom the Hebrews derived worshipped El or Eli (or Anu to the Sumerians) was the creator, the supreme god - one of many, the father of mankind and all creatures. Originally El/Eli was the father of many other gods including Baal-Hadad, Mot, Yam and Yahweh. El appears as one of many gods in the ruins of the royal archive of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC, long before the advent of the Kingdom of Israel (c. 1000 BC at the earliest) or even the supposed period where the mythical Abraham (c. 1900-1600 BC) was said to have lived.

It is widely accepted there are at least two accepted sources for the Pentateuch including the Yahwist (or J) source (dating to from either just before or during the Babylonian capitivity in the 6th century BC), and the Priestly source (P) a product of the middle of the 5th century BC with its final edition as late as the third century BC. P is responsible for the first of the two creation stories (Genesis 1), for Adam's genealogy, part of the Flood story and the genealogy of Abraham back to Shem as well as a couple of other areas. The Priestly source uses El-ohim as the word for 'God"

The Yahwist section begins with the creation story at Genesis 2:4 (the creation story at Genesis 1 is from the Priestly source); this is followed by the Garden of Eden story, Cain and Abel, Cain's descendants (but Adam's descendants are from the Priestly source), a Flood story (the Priestly source has his own flood story and the two are tightly intertwined), Noah's descendants and the Tower of Babel. The Yahwist source uses Yahweh, as the word for God.

It clear that 'Moses' did not write Genesis or any of the other four books of the Pentateuch.

So in essence, the god of the Jews Christians and Muslims, is an evolved god, via unnatural selection, natural selection of course being about reproduction?!

 

[Roylion]

So in essence, the god of the Jews Christians and Muslims, is an evolved god, via unnatural selection, natural selection of course being about reproduction?!

Yep. The development of the concept of 'God" by the Hebrews (from its origins in Mesopotamia and the regions of Midian / Edom as well as some ancient Egyptian influences) and their successor faiths can be followed pretty well. Clearly the whole concept is the product of human imagination.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Yep. The development of the concept of 'God" by the Hebrews (from its origins in Mesopotamia and the regions of Midian / Edom as well as some ancient Egyptian influences) and their successor faiths can be followed pretty well. Clearly the whole concept is the product of human imagination.

Again, in essence, so it’s a type of “intelligent design”, or unintelligent design, whichever side of the fence you choose to reside?!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You were a Christian at one point in time yeah?
What denomination were you?
What made you change your mind?

I was raised in an intensely Christian, Protestant household. I wouldn't say I was ever a Christian, in retrospect. It never really added up to my mind - even as a little kid, but of course the environment I was immersed in was so overwhelmingly Christian I didn't have any objectivity and perspective on what I was being told, let alone the skills to critique it fruitfully.

So I just kept my thoughts to myself and pretended to go along with it, but once I left home and learnt more about the world, and met a wider range of people from diverse backgrounds, and started reading science, and philosophy, and history, all my Christian inculcation gradually fell away until, decades down the track, I can honestly say I'm an atheist now.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

It just never added up for me.

Hence why I always say that theologians, for all their impressively intellectual-sounding words, and for all the letters after their names, still can’t answer the sort of questions a seven year old asks.

 

[carltonchelsea]

It just never added up for me.

Hence why I always say that theologians, for all their impressively intellectual-sounding words, and for all the letters after their names, still can’t answer the sort of questions a seven year old asks.

If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

Albert Einstein

 

[Total Power]

Again, in essence, so it’s a type of “intelligent design”, or unintelligent design, whichever side of the fence you choose to reside?!

Child birth. The Christians gave up and said "this is so bad it must be a punishment". Ah yes, women should cop the punishment all the time, remember? such a lovely deity.

No scientist worth their salt refutes evolution anymore, yet some in this thread seems it's just a coincidence. Why would an all powerful being take 5 billion years to put their master species on earth and kill 96% of all his creations in the process?

 

[Vdubs]

"God", if it exists at all, is unknowable. Jesus is not "god".

Scripture speaks of Jesus spiritually pre-existing his human birth, but not in terms of created flesh and blood. John’s Gospel tells us that Christ became, or was made, flesh—the Creator becoming part of the creation. At the Incarnation Jesus took on both a human nature as well as still possessing a divine essence, the two natures unified in a single person of the Godhead. After the Resurrection Jesus still appeared to Thomas with the marks of the cross, evidence of His salvation work. The hope of the Gospel message is that we too can come into union with, and abide in Christ, when we give our lives to Him and remain in Him .

Jesus is unique in both His person and His purpose. He wasn’t just some spiritual individual during His time on earth; He was both God’s Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).

 

[Vdubs]

The Bible never states that Jesus is God (Except for 2 occasions in John). It always states that Jesus is the Son of God who is inferior to God (hence trinity later on to get the story right), and that is what we should believe..(meant he is divine but not God). Some Vdubs thinks Jesus said he is god.

Definitely IS God- see post 759

 

[Total Power]

Definitely IS God- see post 759

Where did Jesus say he is God except for 2 occasions in John? provide your evidence, nothing in your post suggests otherwise. In Mark, Matthew Luke he repeatedly said his father is greater and I and he was praying to his father. Remember when someone was worshipping him he said 'why do you worship me, only worship god'...

Working miracles doesn't mean he is God, indeed he did imply he is divine but he is lesser than God..aka Prophet. Islam position is correct.

 

[Vdubs]

Where did Jesus say he is God except for 2 occasions in John? provide your evidence, nothing in your post suggests otherwise. In Mark, Matthew Luke he repeatedly said his father is greater and I and he was praying to his father. Remember when someone was worshipping him he said 'why do you worship me, only worship god'...

Working miracles doesn't mean he is God, indeed he did imply he is divine but he is lesser than God..aka Prophet. Islam position is correct.

1 Timothy 3:16​

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New International Version​

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16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[a]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

 

[Total Power]

1 Timothy 3:16​

​

New International Version​

​

​

16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[a]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

You are not reading...Jesus never SAID he is God (himself)...i am not talking about Paul, who wrote Timothy who 'claimed' he was God. So did Thomas. Many people think their Messiah is God too. But he never claimed to be.

 

[Vdubs]

You are not reading...Jesus never SAID he is God (himself)...i am not talking about Paul, who wrote Timothy who 'claimed' he was God. So did Thomas. Many people think their Messiah is God too. But he never claimed to be.

So why exclude John?

 

[carltonchelsea]

Child birth. The Christians gave up and said "this is so bad it must be a punishment". Ah yes, women should cop the punishment all the time, remember? such a lovely deity.

No scientist worth their salt refutes evolution anymore, yet some in this thread seems it's just a coincidence. Why would an all powerful being take 5 billion years to put their master species on earth and kill 96% of all his creations in the process?

All I ask of our believer brothers and sisters, and it should be required reading by every school child, is to read the ‘The Selfish Gene’, it’s all there.
We are carbon based digital information, that only seeks to recreate itself to further its existence or hope for immortality.
Elephant genes make elephants so that it continues to make other elephants, worm genes, make other worm genes to make more worms, Oak genes make more Oak genes so there’s more Oak trees, we are simply the selfish genes to make more of ourselves.
It’s ****ing beautiful, without this process we don’t get to watch or witness a sunset, we don’t get to witness anything, a homo sapien, an elephant, a worm, an Oak tree, we, all biological life on earth are cousins.
We don’t know as yet how the first self replicator happened, but we’re working on it, you will not find the answers in any “holy book”.
Our genes and big brains need to get to work and answer every single question before the parties of god attempt to destroy us in their ****ing stoopid masturbatory eschatological orgasm.
I hate them for that, it really makes me sad.
We are getting closer to their ridiculous fantasies, whilst the greatest amongst us attempt to find these answers!
We are just biological digital replicators with dreams of becoming immortals physically, I’d hoped as a kid the world would feel and dream like I did, but alas, they don’t, they want destruction, ownership, before they create our beautiful planets demise.
**** em!
I hate them!
But for whatever reason, I’ll pretend that I am optimistic for my own replications, because the light in their eyes makes me walk across fire and want for hope that their genes give me and everything that came before me, immortality.

 

[Total Power]

So why exclude John?

If it was important, don't you think the author of synoptics would have mentioned it? only on 2 ocassions in John he said it and John was written 100+ years after Jesus' death.

Jesus said he HAD NO AUTHORITY here on earth to do many things. Note: earth. Note: authority. Hardly God. He was divine, but not god. The authorities came for his father, the real God (he mentions it time and time again).. This is why Trinity was invented, read a bit of Jerome, why don't you?

After Jesus' death, his followers reinterpreted the role of the messiah as more spiritual / metaphorical as opposed to a literal earthly king, and began to equate the messiah / Christ with several other figures, including the Son of Man, the Son of God, the Angel of the Lord, the Logos or Word of God, and eventually God himself.

If you read the gospels yourself you can see the shift in ideology from Mark to John.

 

[Vdubs]

If it was important, don't you think the author of synoptics would have mentioned it? only on 2 ocassions in John he said it and John was written 100+ years after Jesus' death.

Jesus said he HAD NO AUTHORITY here on earth to do many things. Note: earth. Note: authority. Hardly God. He was divine, but not god. The authorities came for his father, the real God (he mentions it time and time again).. This is why Trinity was invented, read a bit of Jerome, why don't you?

After Jesus' death, his followers reinterpreted the role of the messiah as more spiritual / metaphorical as opposed to a literal earthly king, and began to equate the messiah / Christ with several other figures, including the Son of Man, the Son of God, the Angel of the Lord, the Logos or Word of God, and eventually God himself.

If you read the gospels yourself you can see the shift in ideology from Mark to John.

Look, you can believe the bubbles you make in your bathwater, but thousands of Biblical scholars, whose lives are devoted to this, certainly would strongly disagree with your suggestion.
You quote what Jesus said, but it's as usual, out of context or incorrect.
No point continuing this, it is ask an atheist but there's very little interest in such questions, clearly.

 

[Total Power]

Look, you can believe the bubbles you make in your bathwater, but thousands of Biblical scholars, whose lives are devoted to this, certainly would strongly disagree with your suggestion.

Evangelical ones. Just like millions of Islamic scholars believe Islam is the undisputed word of God and Mohammed split the moon? please m8, you are more intelligent that this.

There's not one scholar who isn't a Christian who will disagree with this. You do not believe in your own Bible? where in the synoptics have Jesus claimed to be a God??? only Paul did, who never met Jesus. Why would i care what evangelical scholars have to say? I already know what they would say.

You quote what Jesus said, but it's as usual, out of context or incorrect.

What would be the correction here? I am quoting the Bible, not any other book. These are Jesus' own words. Let me give you an example which Christians use MOST OFTEN as a proof that Jesus is god. At John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." But Jesus also prays that his disciples will be one as he and the Father are one (John 17:11). Jesus also says, at John 17:20-23

No point continuing this, it is ask an atheist but there's very little interest in such questions, clearly.

Educate yourself before running away:

Historical reliability of the Gospels - Wikipedia​

en.wikipedia.org

The Gospel of John is a relatively late theological document containing little accurate historical information that is not found in the three synoptic gospels, which is why most historical studies have been based on the earliest sources Mark In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, major New Testament scholars dismissed the Gospel of John as having no historical credibility. This even included my friend Jimmy Dunn (James D. G. Dunn). They therefore regarded the Johannine Jesus as a fictional character. and Q.[86] It speaks of an unnamed "disciple whom Jesus loved" as the source of its traditions, but does not say specifically that he is its author;[87] Christian tradition identifies him as John the Apostle, but the majority of modern scholars have abandoned this or hold it only tenuously

 

[Roylion]

Scripture speaks of Jesus spiritually pre-existing his human birth, but not in terms of created flesh and blood.

And so? Scripture can speak of pink unicorns but just by doing so does not make pink unicorns factual. The Bible is not true because the Bible says its true.

John’s Gospel tells us that Christ became, or was made, flesh—the Creator becoming part of the creation.

That John did so does not make such a claim true. Quoting scripture says nothing more that you believe such claims by faith only. And we know that already.

After the Resurrection Jesus still appeared to Thomas with the marks of the cross, evidence of His salvation work.

This is an unsubstantiated claim. There is absolutely no evidence for the (or indeed any) resurrection from the dead being an actual factual occurence.

The hope of the Gospel message is that we too can come into union with, and abide in Christ, when we give our lives to Him and remain in Him .

That is a claim you make. I see no evidence that this is actually so.

Jesus is unique in both His person and His purpose. He wasn’t just some spiritual individual during His time on earth; He was both God’s Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

He was a mortal human who died and remained dead.

Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).

No he wasn't. He was born and he died. Like every other person on earth that has ever live, or will live. (Gospel of Roylion. Chapter 44. Verse 22)

 

[Total Power]

And so? Scripture can speak of pink unicorns but just by doing so does not make pink unicorns factual. The Bible is not true because the Bible says its true.

It's amusing to me how many of these gullible idiots believe this is the case. Bible also tells us the earth is flat, global flood is true, evolution never happened, stars fall from the sky, exdous was a real story, adam was a real person etc. And people here who say but but it's a metaphor, um it's not. the importance of the historicity of the Exodus was laid out by Jesus as well "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up" (John 13:4)

There are many others as well however the whole argument that it must be true cause it says is true is the dumbest argument ever, but if it provides them comfort, so be it.

 

[Vdubs]

Why do you Atheists NOT believe in SIN?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why do you Atheists NOT believe in SIN?

Thanks for asking.

For my part, I only believe in verifiable truth and fact.

I hold no special esteem for capital “B” belief of any sort - religious or otherwise, in fact I think it’s the source of a lot of the world’s problems.

Also, specifically in regard to sin, I think it’s an entirely human construct, brought into being purely to serve the purposes of one religion or another.

Doesn’t mean I don’t think we should all be striving at all times to distinguish right from wrong. Rejecting the concept of sin doesn’t mean rejecting morality and ethics and decency.

 

[Vdubs]

Oh I know christians, I was surrounded by them growing up, from most denominations.
What “LIGHT” have you seen, photons taking every possible route through the slit experiment, as an example?
God, Jesus, creation are all scientific questions, thus far they have all miserably failed in conclusion of the initial premise of the claims from their initial articles until 19/11/2024.
Faith is useless, it’s the worst part of the three idiotic tribal desert claims.
Which claims are we fumbling in the dark about?
All scientific theories are facts, you guys, Jews Christians and Muslims have nothing, nada, zip!
Here we go again with your denial delusion of the term “Theory” in science and what it requires to reach this status!
You’re so dull, you’re just not worth the time and effort!

So a Photon was going through airport security.
He was asked by the security guy if he has any luggage.
The Photon said, No, I'm travelling light.

 

[Vdubs]

Thanks for asking.

For my part, I only believe in verifiable truth and fact.

I hold no special esteem for capital “B” belief of any sort - religious or otherwise, in fact I think it’s the source of a lot of the world’s problems.

Also, specifically in regard to sin, I think it’s an entirely human construct, brought into being purely to serve the purposes of one religion or another.

Doesn’t mean I don’t think we should all be striving at all times to distinguish right from wrong. Rejecting the concept of sin doesn’t mean rejecting morality and ethics and decency.

So are any of you atheists troubled by recurring sin?
Don't need it to be personal, but if not, great, and if so, how is it dealt with?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

So are any of you atheists troubled by recurring sin?
Don't need it to be personal, but if not, great, and if so, how is it dealt with?

No. I honestly don’t know what sin is.