Barometers for 2011, Who do you think will be the keys

["The Roar Is Back"]

In some areas yes Hob, in others Jackson and Tuck bring their own elite talents to the table and it will prove extremely difficult - and ultimately unnecessary IMO seeing we need a dozen players we can rotate through the centre - for the young blokes to surpass them in some areas. Tackling, physical pressure, not allowing easy take-aways from stoppages or easy inside-50's, wearing opponents down with tackling and grappling, gut running, contested marking, making position to receive, clearances, blocking - these are their better talents and they're very important for our midfield mix both short and long term, just as important as great disposal to advantage.

Getting away from what I quoted and speaking more generally, IMO we've got to bear in mind that both Jackson and Tuck have played very few games where they didn't have to carry a load greater than almost all other midfielders in the league, both have had very little rest off the ball in recent years - 6yrs straight for Tuck. It's much harder to dispose well when your legs and arms are burning all game and it shouldn't surprise anyone that their disposal will improve as their workload becomes more reasonable due to our improving midfield depth.

Bringing Tuck in against the opposition's 4th-6th midfielder or throwing him fresh onto a tiring gun is always going to be a win for us, Jackson is one of those rare athletes with an equal mix of run and brute strength, he makes us a lot tougher in the middle and his footballing is perfectly adequate for the jobs he'll need to do.

I think we should be grateful we have both because players like them don't grow on trees or turn up a dozen a draft, they're actually quite rare and a great foundation to build from. We added Grigg because we needed another of a similar type.

You make some valid points Rayzor in relation to those 3 players . I agree we need a minimum of a dozen players , ( I actually think we need up to 17) who can rotate through the midfield, the issue with these 3 is that I can't see all 3 of them being in our best starting on ball brigade , with Cotchin, Foley and Martin fit. Whilst as I stated earlier they havent shown alot in alternative positions and would be well behind others, who can rotate through the midfield, in those positions. With the introduction of the sub rule and the growing trend of player rotation , players who aren't capable in more than one position will become an even greater rarity ?
I think players either need to be a KPP who can pinch hit both forward or back, be a Ruckman who can rotate effectively through the forward line or be a mid- small who can be effective as a mid, forward or back ?
It's unfortunate but the versatility of these 3 is the reason I hope by seasons end all 3 ain't in our best side !

 

[_RT_]

What does 1%ers mean?
When you say 4th for skill errors does that mean he makes the least or he makes the most skill errors

1%ers means stuff like spoils & sheparding. The skill error stat is the most skill errors. For all Tucks 'faults' he actually makes a surprisingly low number, while supposed better ball users than him make higher numbers. Although it should be pointed out the difference between our highest and 10th ranked players is only 1 skill error per game.

 

[_RT_]

You make some valid points Rayzor in relation to those 3 players . I agree we need a minimum of a dozen players , ( I actually think we need up to 17) who can rotate through the midfield, the issue with these 3 is that I can't see all 3 of them being in our best starting on ball brigade , with Cotchin, Foley and Martin fit. Whilst as I stated earlier they havent shown alot in alternative positions and would be well behind others, who can rotate through the midfield, in those positions. With the introduction of the sub rule and the growing trend of player rotation , players who aren't capable in more than one position will become an even greater rarity ?
I think players either need to be a KPP who can pinch hit both forward or back, be a Ruckman who can rotate effectively through the forward line or be a mid- small who can be effective as a mid, forward or back ?
It's unfortunate but the versatility of these 3 is the reason I hope by seasons end all 3 ain't in our best side !

I disagree with your assessment that they don't have versatility. Its just as Rayzor says they haven't really had much opportunity to get out of the midfield in Tuck and Jacksons case over the last few years.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

I disagree with your assessment that they don't have versatility. Its just as Rayzor says they haven't really had much opportunity to get out of the midfield in Tuck and Jacksons case over the last few years.

Well I'll agree to disagree , I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise and I can't see where they can all be in the starting 18 , and if we are going to be competitive with the stronger sides for the whole duration of games, I don't think we can go into games on a regular basis with 2 or 3 blokes who are changing midfielders who can't play other roles ?

 

[thecotch9]

I'm more than likely repeating many previous posts but what the hell..

In no specific terms: our KPPs! namely our our Key Position Defenders.

By the end of 2011 we must identify who out of Moore, Mcguane, Astbury, Thursfield and Gourdis will be our regular 3 KPDs that will be the cornerstone of our push towards premiership #11. In my not-so-important opinion it will be Astbury, Moore and Mcguane. Although I would love to see Gourdis prove me wrong as he is one of the most athletic 190cm+ players I've ever seen.

 

[SteveoTheTiger]

Assuming other players have similar years to last year then we see big improvements from the following then we will be having a pretty good year:

Post, Griffiths, Vickery, Conners, Foley.

If Posty, Griff and Vicks all have a big year then our forward line is finally firing which obviously goes a long way towards winning games.

If Conners kicks on and improves his game then it may release Lids to play more in the midfield or half forward flank at times. Which will bring someone like Webberly or one of the new blokes (forget his name ATM) into the game.

Foley back to his best would be a massive plus to our midfield.

And finally Graham winning some hitouts will be a big help in our centre clearances, which we were already doing ok at last year.

And i do agree with the other posts saying that our key defenders need to stand up. Some of our defense last year was comical at best. But its hard to defend anything when they are being pelted with the ball every 30 seconds.

 

[santa claws]

Well you're going to be disappointed then, because all 3 will be in the 22 barring injury/poor form.

hmm well thats not good then.
because i dont consider winning games all that important for us atm. barometers i would be looking for in the improvement stakes would be, some one like grigg keeping one of tuck or jackson out of the side. or mcguane failing to get games because gourdis astbury or grimes are showing enough. or when houli or hicks can keep the deficient white out of the team geez things like this would be a very good barometer of the list actually improving. conca getting games in stead of below standard hacks. some one like derickx or brown improving enough to keep the very mediocre graham out of the side. geez one could go on and on. farmer after 4 yrs finally stepping up and making the small defensive spot his thus freeing newman up to the midfield, 4 yrs for a small is a looonnngggg time.
dont forget people we finished 15th last yr and we just had to many ordinary types on the list to get rid of in one go despite a massive clean out the yr before.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

Santa, although on 2009 and early last years performances I would usually agree with most of your opinions there, after watching a few of the games over the last few weeks again, the ones against against quality sides, Freo/Syd/Saints R21, Graham/White/Farmer showed they could play at the level. Even Jackson and Tuck will still be depth players with a role to play in the best 22 for this year and top teams will be pushed.

Two more years development of the midfield with hopefully a couple of decent mids recruited will see the retirement of Tuck anyway, but the other players you have named, could play in a top 4 side on the last half of the 2010 performances IMO.

Hopefully there is a lot of healthy competition for their spots next year though from all the new recruits!!

 

[cormick]

things like this would be a very good barometer of the list actually improving.

That's bullshit. 3 years ago you'd have said "get White in to replace the inept Tivendale and Graham in for Simmonds and it'll show we're improving as a team." Before then, "get Tivendale in for Merenda and Simmonds in for Stafford" et al. It's not about getting new players in to replace older ones. It's about getting good players in to replace bad ones, Judging by the fact they regularly get games, Hardwick rates the likes of Tuck, White and Jackson, to at least play a role in our developing team. By removing all experience, we may as well drop back to the TAC cup with our team of stick-thin adolescents.

 

[santa claws]

That's bullshit. 3 years ago you'd have said "get White in to replace the inept Tivendale and Graham in for Simmonds and it'll show we're improving as a team." Before then, "get Tivendale in for Merenda and Simmonds in for Stafford" et al. It's not about getting new players in to replace older ones. It's about getting good players in to replace bad ones, Judging by the fact they regularly get games, Hardwick rates the likes of Tuck, White and Jackson, to at least play a role in our developing team. By removing all experience, we may as well drop back to the TAC cup with our team of stick-thin adolescents.

pppffftt you dont know me then.white and graham are two i have never rated but yes in the early days i have supported both and insisted we need to get games into them to at least find out what they have at the level.graham because our other ruckmen are still in nappies i have said hes needed. but just because hes needed and getting games does it make him a good footballer.
i take it you rate white me i think him an hack. weather hes played 10 games or 70 a dud is a dud. if we are hanging our future hats on the likes of matt white we are forever doomed.

matt white has never been lambasted by me never. all i have ever said he has to many weakneses to be a passable afl player.
i wont point out his deficiencies again which have never gone away, why? because im sick to death of doing it. go look up some posts of mine if you have a mind to to see what i thinlk those weaknesses are. hes had 5 yrs as a small and nothing has changed.
whitey may be a nice bloke but for a small at afl level hes not good enough.
and it boils down to too many weaknesses nothing more nothing less.
too many deficiencies = dud .

 

[cormick]

That isn't what I was saying. Whether or not player X is "a dud" or not isn't the point. That we need to give certain players plenty of time to show their wares is.

Now more specifically. I, too, don't think White is much of a player, but for the time being he has done enough and is young enough to deserve his spot. If he was 26 rather than 22(?) it would be different, but he isn't and so he plays an important role which not enough of the Richmond players can play, and that is of an experienced, seasoned player with potential to improve.

It isn't White-specific either: Graham plays his role of experienced-with-potential-to-improve ruck as is required. Now that Derickx is in the team and Browne and Vickery are getting some size he might have a little bit of pressure for his spot, who knows? But Hicks in as the hard-running, hard-nosed, super-quick half forward for White? For mine, it's silly.

 

[Rayzorwire]

You make some valid points Rayzor in relation to those 3 players . I agree we need a minimum of a dozen players , ( I actually think we need up to 17) who can rotate through the midfield, the issue with these 3 is that I can't see all 3 of them being in our best starting on ball brigade , with Cotchin, Foley and Martin fit. Whilst as I stated earlier they havent shown alot in alternative positions and would be well behind others, who can rotate through the midfield, in those positions.

a) Sides rarely start their 'best' three mids in the centre, a tagger or hard nut in and under player is there, in our best lineup Jackson is there. It's about the mix of hardness, ball winning ability AND disposal. And in the end, the way football is, one of Tuck or Jackson's 'hacks' off zero steps to avoid being tackled (or while being tackled) is just as likely to end in a scoring opportunity as a beautiful pass inside-50 which gets spoiled because the opposition expected it.

b) Hardwick has said we will use Cotchin and Martin more outside this year to utilise their kicking skills to better effect. What he's effectively saying is that we have Tuck, Jackson, Grigg and Foley to do the scrambled kicks out of dense packs that they do as well as anyone else can, take the never ending body hits and do the muscle work, and let's not have our best kicks doing that stuff as often as we did last year, let them be making space to receive in and have every opportunity to make their disposal count more for us.

c) You claim Tuck, Jackson and Grigg lack 'versatility.' As RT pointed out, Tuck and Jackson have had little opportunity to play outside the centre, but you also seem to be forgetting numerous other things; Grigg has played as much on the HBF as in the centre and done fine there; Jackson was used as a specialist defensive forward by Wallace back in 2007 and did well including a three goal haul; Tuck is probably only shaded by Deledio in contested marking outside our talls and has bobbed up with timely goals throughout his career when he gets a rare rest forward, and he wasn't demoted from the HBF this year, we needed him in the midfield more. He's even the best rucking midfielder in the comp...it's like you're complaining about the versatility of a swiss army knife...next you'll want to dump him because he's always injured.

d) You say - with no basis for it as I outline above - that Tuck, Jackson and Grigg can't play anywhere outside the centre, but you seem to have missed the fact that very few of our flankers can play as genuine midfielders, certainly not for full games and certainly not to the standard of Tuck, Jackson and Grigg. If we look at just the forward line with Nahas, Taylor, King, Nason, Hicks etc. as our small and defensive forwards candidates...you may be able to make some case for a couple of them being slightly more effective forwards than the three mids you want to dump entirely, but there's no way you could make a case that they're only slightly behind Tuck, Jackson and Grigg as midfielders.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

a) Sides rarely start their 'best' three mids in the centre, a tagger or hard nut in and under player is there, in our best lineup Jackson is there. It's about the mix of hardness, ball winning ability AND disposal. And in the end, the way football is, one of Tuck or Jackson's 'hacks' off zero steps to avoid being tackled (or while being tackled) is just as likely to end in a scoring opportunity as a beautiful pass inside-50 which gets spoiled because the opposition expected it.

b) Hardwick has said we will use Cotchin and Martin more outside this year to utilise their kicking skills to better effect. What he's effectively saying is that we have Tuck, Jackson, Grigg and Foley to do the scrambled kicks out of dense packs that they do as well as anyone else can, take the never ending body hits and do the muscle work, and let's not have our best kicks doing that stuff as often as we did last year, let them be making space to receive in and have every opportunity to make their disposal count more for us.

c) You claim Tuck, Jackson and Grigg lack 'versatility.' As RT pointed out, Tuck and Jackson have had little opportunity to play outside the centre, but you also seem to be forgetting numerous other things; Grigg has played as much on the HBF as in the centre and done fine there; Jackson was used as a specialist defensive forward by Wallace back in 2007 and did well including a three goal haul; Tuck is probably only shaded by Deledio in contested marking outside our talls and has bobbed up with timely goals throughout his career when he gets a rare rest forward, and he wasn't demoted from the HBF this year, we needed him in the midfield more. He's even the best rucking midfielder in the comp...it's like you're complaining about the versatility of a swiss army knife...next you'll want to dump him because he's always injured.

d) You say - with no basis for it as I outline above - that Tuck, Jackson and Grigg can't play anywhere outside the centre, but you seem to have missed the fact that very few of our flankers can play as genuine midfielders, certainly not for full games and certainly not to the standard of Tuck, Jackson and Grigg. If we look at just the forward line with Nahas, Taylor, King, Nason, Hicks etc. as our small and defensive forwards candidates...you may be able to make some case for a couple of them being slightly more effective forwards than the three mids you want to dump entirely, but there's no way you could make a case that they're only slightly behind Tuck, Jackson and Grigg as midfielders.

RW sit down and honestly list the best side we can have with all players available .
My comments have been in relation to all 3 being in the side and if all 3 are in the side at one time I think it's a clear sign players have been injured or haven't progressed , would you play 3 Thurstfield's in the one side ?
You mention team balance , yet appear to argue against it ?
You make comment on Nahas , King, Taylor, Nason and Hicks as small or defensive forwards . Based on last year ( 2010 ) I hope king progresses and establishes himself as a small defensive forward, Taylor small forward and 1 of Nason, Hicks or Webberly can prove themselves as a small outside hard running mid . All would be in front of Tucky , Jack or Grigg within those roles , King at times has played as a small defensive mid effectively, Nason has shown ability to play as a smaller forward and hopefully Taylor progresses into a player who can play further up the ground as an outside mid , once again I'd hope by seasons end all roles they can clearly do better than the 3 you mentioned ?
So by my way of thinking all 3 are likely to rotate through the midfield and forward line at some stage , versatility ?
Connors , Lids and Newman, who can pinch hit within the midfield, I'd expect to play as our smaller defenders and I wouldn't discount Farmer being in the side either a smaller defensive role to release Lids into the midfield or into the midfield himself ?
I actually wouldn't mind the idea of having a bigger bodied solely defensive HBF and one less smaller rebounding defender , just not sold that any of the 3 being discussed could play on a Didak, Sj type ?
Mortons form as a midfielder late in 2010 and the versatility and improvement of Edwards and hopes surrounding Conca , makes it extremely difficult to find a place for all of Tucky, Jacko , Grigg and even Houli , without the consideration that Rance finds his feet ?
Then there's O'Reilly , Grimes and Batchellor who may be a season away, but you'd hope are putting pressure for a spot by seasons end , and with no mention of White .
Oh and I don't agree with your assumption of what you believe Hardwick is effectively saying .

 

[_RT_]

RW sit down and honestly list the best side we can have with all players available .

B: Newman McGuane Moore
HB: Deledio Astbury Connors
C: Martin Cotchin Morton
HF: Houli Post Edwards
F: Vickery Riewoldt King
R: Graham Tuck Foley
I/C: Jackson Grigg Conca
Sub: Browne/Derickx

My comments have been in relation to all 3 being in the side and if all 3 are in the side at one time I think it's a clear sign players have been injured or haven't progressed , would you play 3 Thurstfield's in the one side ?

You make comment on Nahas , King, Taylor, Nason and Hicks as small or defensive forwards . Based on last year ( 2010 ) I hope king progresses and establishes himself as a small defensive forward, Taylor small forward and 1 of Nason, Hicks or Webberly can prove themselves as a small outside hard running mid . All would be in would be in front Tucky , Jack or Grigg within those roles , King at times has played as a small defensive mid effectively, Nason has shown ability to play as a smaller forward and hopefully Taylor progresses into a player who can play further up the ground as an outside mid , once again I'd hope by seasons end all roles they can clearly do better than the 3 you mentioned ?

You seem confused, you're talking about King Nason Webberley & Hicks as playing as outside mids. Tuck Jackson & Grigg strengths are as inside mids. Having the 4 of them rotate through the midfield and say either the HF/interchange allows for our better ball users to play on the outside.

Put it this way, would you prefer to have Tuck Jackson Grigg and Foley playing inside feeding the ball out to guys like Deledio Cotchin Martin Houli Conca & Morton or would you prefer to have guys like Cotchin Martin & Deledio playing on the inside and feeding the ball out to guys like Morton Houli Conca Nason Webberley & Hicks?

I know what I'd prefer to see happen for most of the year.

So by my way of thinking all 3 are likely to rotate through the midfield and forward line at some stage , versatility ?
Connors , Lids and Newman, who can pinch hit within the midfield, I'd expect to play as our smaller defenders and I wouldn't discount Farmer being in the side either a smaller defensive role to release Lids into the midfield or into the midfield himself ?

As much as we would all like Lids to play through the midfield for most of the year, it was quite clear from watching training yesterday that he'll be spending a fair bit of time across HB. The benefit of him playing there is a) he is unlikely to be tagged and b) his line breaking and ball use provide great drive coming out of defence.

Mortons form as a midfielder late in 2010 and the versatility and inprovement of Edwards and hopes surrounding Conca , makes it extremely difficult to find a place for all of Tucky, Jacko , Grigg and even Houli , without the consideration that Rance finds his feet ?
Then there's O'Reilly , Grimes and Batchellor who may be a season away, but you'd hope are putting pressure for a spot by seasons end , and with no mention of White .
Oh and I don't agree with your assumption of what you believe Hardwick is effectively saying .

As I posted above its quite possible to have a side with Morton Edwards Conca Houli Grigg Tuck Jackson Martin Cotchin & Foley. The easy way to accomodate this is you set up the rotations so that 2 of Jackson Foley Tuck & Grigg are always on the ground. That leaves Cotchin Martin Morton Edwards Conca & Houli to play on the outside. Use 2 coming off the wing, another in the square(I'd be alternating Martin & Cotchin in this role to utilise their ball winning ability) and 2 coming off the HFF, there is also a spot on the bench for a break as well.

As for guys like Batchelor Grimes O'Rielly Rance White and co, if they want a spot then they need to step up and take it away from players that are established.

 

[santa claws]

That isn't what I was saying. Whether or not player X is "a dud" or not isn't the point. That we need to give certain players plenty of time to show their wares is.

Now more specifically. I, too, don't think White is much of a player, but for the time being he has done enough and is young enough to deserve his spot. If he was 26 rather than 22(?) it would be different, but he isn't and so he plays an important role which not enough of the Richmond players can play, and that is of an experienced, seasoned player with potential to improve.

It isn't White-specific either: Graham plays his role of experienced-with-potential-to-improve ruck as is required. Now that Derickx is in the team and Browne and Vickery are getting some size he might have a little bit of pressure for his spot, who knows? But Hicks in as the hard-running, hard-nosed, super-quick half forward for White? For mine, it's silly.

you will get no argument from me that we need to give players plenty of time.

but giving players inordinate amounts of time just to establish themselves has to stop.
giving players inordinate amounts of time with continued deficiency borders on idiocy imo.

white for starters he will basically be 24 at the start of the season 15/4/87. he will be in yr 6 and hes a small with weaknesses that just have not gone away. you want a perfectly honest assesment of him he has no or little improvement left in him. and what role does he play i think you are kidding yourself he plays thru the midfield and forward at times and he performs those roles poorly.

just how long do you think we should give to players like this. i know do what we have always done and hang onto him for another couple of seasons like we have done with so many battlers over the past 30 yrs.

matt white is a product of the wallace days where skills were overlooked in the misplaced belief that they can be improved upon. white would not be looked at in a draft today by anyone least of all richmond with its mantra of being able to at least kick well and make good decisions.

good skills genuine smarts and pace are a prerequisite for smalls and believe it or not in most cases you can make a call on them smalls after 2 or 3 seasons in a system.

personally i would rather give a robbie hicks despite his size atm a game in front of the likes of white at least he can kick has pace and is clever. i would be giving hicks until the end of 2012 because of his size to prove himself after that i would be looking to turn him over if he fails and i would be going thru that process as quickly and as often as needs be.

finally just because a player has managed 50 odd games does it mean hes up to standard just look at tivendale or pettifer or krakouer and i can go on and on and on and on. to me a decision should have been made on white at the end of 08 if this had happened we would already have a good idea if his replacement can play or not.

with graham well cicumstances are clearly different. unlike whites role where we have numerous options,we didnt have to many ready to go ruckmen on the list and still dont.
he will get games still because mainly we dont have any other option but play him.
besides for a tall and one coming from a long way back his window is still open. like white he will be 24 16/4/87 basically a few games into the season. he will be in yr 5. as a tall he probably has another season or two to truly show his worth. personally i dont have a lot of faith in him mainly because of weakness in him and his game.if he can significantly improve over the next 2 seasons it will be a good barometer of our improvement. more likely the barometer will be when one of vickery browne or derickx can replace him.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

B: Newman McGuane Moore
HB: Deledio Astbury Connors
C: Martin Cotchin Morton
HF: Houli Post Edwards
F: Vickery Riewoldt King
R: Graham Tuck Foley
I/C: Jackson Grigg Conca
Sub: Browne/Derickx


You seem confused, you're talking about King Nason Webberley & Hicks as playing as outside mids. Tuck Jackson & Grigg strengths are as inside mids. Having the 4 of them rotate through the midfield and say either the HF/interchange allows for our better ball users to play on the outside.

Put it this way, would you prefer to have Tuck Jackson Grigg and Foley playing inside feeding the ball out to guys like Deledio Cotchin Martin Houli Conca & Morton or would you prefer to have guys like Cotchin Martin & Deledio playing on the inside and feeding the ball out to guys like Morton Houli Conca Nason Webberley & Hicks?

I know what I'd prefer to see happen for most of the year.


As much as we would all like Lids to play through the midfield for most of the year, it was quite clear from watching training yesterday that he'll be spending a fair bit of time across HB. The benefit of him playing there is a) he is unlikely to be tagged and b) his line breaking and ball use provide great drive coming out of defence.


As I posted above its quite possible to have a side with Morton Edwards Conca Houli Grigg Tuck Jackson Martin Cotchin & Foley. The easy way to accomodate this is you set up the rotations so that 2 of Jackson Foley Tuck & Grigg are always on the ground. That leaves Cotchin Martin Morton Edwards Conca & Houli to play on the outside. Use 2 coming off the wing, another in the square(I'd be alternating Martin & Cotchin in this role to utilise their ball winning ability) and 2 coming off the HFF, there is also a spot on the bench for a break as well.

As for guys like Batchelor Grimes O'Rielly Rance White and co, if they want a spot then they need to step up and take it away from players that are established.

RT my reply was to RW , or are there two that are the same ?
Anyway , your above side is a clear indication of why I think all 3 will struggle to play in the one side !
Martins clear ability is to burst from a pack and use the footy , quite possibly if not already will by the end of this season , will be our best in the side at it , not finding space or dominating a side with his gut running or pace , and receiving the footy ?
I suspect your suggested rotation through the midfield is Grigg , Tuck Conca, if it is , a midfield like that is the exact reason why we faded in games during 2010. It's unlikely Conca will have a debut year like Martins 2010 season , and therefore that midfield rotation would be close to if not the worst collective midfield rotation in the comp , no potency to it what so ever !
Cotchin and Martin win enough of their own footy to allow for a more outside receiving type to play regularly within the midfield rotations ! If Tuck and Jackson where more composed and prepared to give the footy to a Lids, Martin, Cotchin playing as an outside mid , things might be different, but we need to get the footy into blokes like Lids , Martins and Cotchins hands as much as possible and there is nothing more frustrating than to see one of these blokes work there arse off to get into space forward of the footy and then see someone in space bomb the ball over their head to four opposition defenders standing on our half forward line waiting to rebound !
I also hope we don't see your suggestion of 3 Ruckman, one as a permanent forward , plus Post playing in the one side , opposition backlines will have a field day choking up that forward line and rebounding, I can't see Vickery putting to much defensive pressure some of the leagues taller rebounding defenders ?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

B: Newman McGuane Moore
HB: Deledio Astbury Connors
C: Martin Cotchin Morton
HF: Houli Post Edwards
F: Vickery Riewoldt King
R: Graham Tuck Foley
I/C: Jackson Grigg Conca
Sub: Browne/Derickx


You seem confused, you're talking about King Nason Webberley & Hicks as playing as outside mids. Tuck Jackson & Grigg strengths are as inside mids. Having the 4 of them rotate through the midfield and say either the HF/interchange allows for our better ball users to play on the outside.

Put it this way, would you prefer to have Tuck Jackson Grigg and Foley playing inside feeding the ball out to guys like Deledio Cotchin Martin Houli Conca & Morton or would you prefer to have guys like Cotchin Martin & Deledio playing on the inside and feeding the ball out to guys like Morton Houli Conca Nason Webberley & Hicks?

I know what I'd prefer to see happen for most of the year.

Oh and I never suggested playing all webberly hicks and nason as outside mids at the one time , I thought it was quite clear that I suggested one of Webberly Hicks or Nason being used as an outside mid , whilst with king I thought it was clear that I feel he has been used with some success as a defensive mid ?
I'd rather a on ball division of Foley Cotchin and Conca changing with Martin Grigg and Lids ( or Edwards ) at least we have at least two on ballers who can carry the footy and hurt the opposition at all times , and on ball combination of , one predominate ball
winner , a receiving type and somebody who can win their own footy and break from a contest !
Which leaves Morton on a wing and someone like Nason on the other wing who can use his pace, get in space , break lines, carry the footy and deliver deep into our forward line ?

 

[Madtiger2006]

Oh and I never suggested playing all webberly hicks and nason as outside mids at the one time , I thought it was quite clear that I suggested one of Webberly Hicks or Nason being used as an outside mid , whilst with king I thought it was clear that I feel he has been used with some success as a defensive mid ?
I'd rather a on ball division of Foley Cotchin and Conca changing with Martin Grigg and Lids ( or Edwards ) at least we have at least two on ballers who can carry the footy and hurt the opposition at all times , and on ball combination of , one predominate ball
winner , a receiving type and somebody who can win their own footy and break from a contest !
Which leaves Morton on a wing and someone like Nason on the other wing who can use his pace, get in space , break lines, carry the footy and deliver deep into our forward line ?

I'd love to see Webberley play. He'd provide alot more skill than Moore

 

[Madtiger2006]

This is how the team should line up every week

FB connors mcguane newman
HB webberley astbury deledio
C edwards cotchin conca
HF houli post morton
FF taylor reiwoldt griffiths
FOLL graham martin foley
INT browne grigg gourdis rance
EMER vickery farmer thursfield nason

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

there is nothing more frustrating than to see one of these blokes work there arse off to get into space forward of the footy and then see someone in space bomb the ball over their head to four opposition defenders standing on our half forward line waiting to rebound !

Totally agree....

Tuck has been doing it for years though....you can only assume the coaching staff have decided it could also land onto a forwards chest, and are prepared to wear the ones that land onto the oppositions....as strange as that seems.

So they either haven't told him to stop doing it, or they have told him, and he keeps doing it anyway because he doesn't have the footy smarts or confidence for a quick handball to the player who has found some space. Maybe the game plan sometimes involves getting going forward at all costs and he has a licence to 'bang it long' anytime he feels.

 

[_RT_]

RT my reply was to RW , or are there two that are the same ?
Anyway , your above side is a clear indication of why I think all 3 will struggle to play in the one side !
Martins clear ability is to burst from a pack and use the footy , quite possibly if not already will by the end of this season , will be our best in the side at it , not finding space or dominating a side with his gut running or pace , and receiving the footy ?
I suspect your suggested rotation through the midfield is Grigg , Tuck Conca, if it is , a midfield like that is the exact reason why we faded in games during 2010. It's unlikely Conca will have a debut year like Martins 2010 season , and therefore that midfield rotation would be close to if not the worst collective midfield rotation in the comp , no potency to it what so ever !

My suggested rotation through the midfield isn't Grigg Tuck & Conca. My suggest rotations are based around using Cotchin Martin Jackson Grigg Tuck Morton Conca Edwards Foley & Conca to rotate through. At a centre bounce you have 2 wingers, 2 HFF, 1 ruck rover, 1 rover & a centreman. Thats 7 positions, pick any 7 of the 10 names above and have them fill those positions. The only proviso I had was that you keep at least 2 of your genuine ball winners (bolded) rotating through the middle at all times. At least that way we can give guys like Cotchin and Martin the chance to play on the outside and have a break, which at the same time also allows us to better use their kicking skills, rather than have them trying to kick while an opponent hangs off them as they try and break away from a pack. Think about it like this an average quarter goes for 27-30 minutes, we could have Tuck & Cotchin start in the guts and go hard at it for 5 minutes, they rotate out for Martin and Jackson, who do the same, they rotate out for Grigg and Foley who follow suit. Halfway through the quarter we can then bring back Tuck and Cotchin who have had a 10 minute break from the bash and crash, who start the process again.

Why do you think sides like Collingwood and Geelong have been so successful in recent season? IMO, its because they get to rotate their better players through the middle more often thus keeping them fresher for longer. As I posted the other day Geelong had 7 midfielders who averaged 22+ possessions and 8+ contested possessions a game last year, we had 3(4 if you count Foleys 4 games). How do you expect to compete with that sort of difference?

Cotchin and Martin win enough of their own footy to allow for a more outside receiving type to play regularly within the midfield rotations ! If Tuck and Jackson where more composed and prepared to give the footy to a Lids, Martin, Cotchin playing as an outside mid , things might be different, but we need to get the footy into blokes like Lids , Martins and Cotchins hands as much as possible and there is nothing more frustrating than to see one of these blokes work there arse off to get into space forward of the footy and then see someone in space bomb the ball over their head to four opposition defenders standing on our half forward line waiting to rebound !

Agree with you that Cotchin and Martin win enough of their own ball, but don't you think it would be much better to have the ball in their hands if they were able to spend some time playing on the outside, rather than being bashed and crashed inside. Thats my whole point. Guys like Tuck Jackson & Grigg allow us to play Martin and Cotchin on the outside, because we don't lose that ability to win contested footy. Not sure which games you were watching last year but there weren't many times where guys like Cotchin Martin & Lids were in space ahead of the ball. For the most part Lids was in our D50 and Cotchin and Martin were playing either inside mid or onball because we had no-one to turn to.

I also hope we don't see your suggestion of 3 Ruckman, one as a permanent forward , plus Post playing in the one side , opposition backlines will have a field day choking up that forward line and rebounding, I can't see Vickery putting to much defensive pressure some of the leagues taller rebounding defenders ?

Ever since Hardwick has arrived he has spoken of playing a forward line with 3 talls. I also think that is why he has raised the possibility of Jack playing further up the ground, so that his defensive pressure can be better utilised. As for the 3 ruckman, they wouldn't be playing at the same time, Browne/Derickx would be the sub and would replace either Vickery or Graham depending on the situation.

BTW after watching training yesterday, I'm inclined to believe that the setup I've suggested is close to the mark. We had the 3 talls working through the fowardline and at times Cotchin and Martin were making space by playing on the outside.

 

[MightyTiger]

That would have to be one of the worst starting 22s I have seen yet on this board MT, that backline setup like that would get murdered, the Forward line is to top heavy and the days of having 2 lumbering rucks are over.

FB Newman McGuane Moore/Farmer
HB Deledio Astbury Connors/Batchelor
C Martin Cotchin Morton/Edwards
HF Houli Griffiths White/Nason
FF Taylor Riewoldt King
Foll Graham Tuck Foley
I/C Jackson Grigg Conca Vickery/Post

EMER Webberley Thursfield Miller/Post Helbig

Obviously we are creating depth in certain areas, the forward line still needs alot of work with development into Taylor/Griffiths and hopeful that Houli can kick a few goals.

The backline IMO has the potential to be quite potent, with the skill being the main priority down back (McGuane aside), with the recruitment of Batchelor I can definately see Deledio being pushed further up the ground and hopefully kicking 20+ goals playing thorugh the midfield.

Midfield, well what can be said about it, on paper there is a lot of class in there with Cotchin, Martin, Conca and Morto and Foley with players such as Tuck, Jackson and Grigg doing the majority of the in and under stuff.

Graham is my first choice ruckman as it should be for others, he is a very good ruck for his age, and what he has produced at this current point in time in his development is much better then other established older rucks in the comp.

Vickery or Post for my second ruck option, both very mobile for there size and both can play forward, with Post having the ability to play back also, versatility is the key no need for 2 lumbering rucks.

The Emergencies are quite self explanatory, Thursfield if a back goes down, Miller/Post if a forward or ruck doesn't come up with 2 small midfielders/wingers in Helbig and Webbers.

After looking at the line up a few times, there looks to be alot of competition for some spots, especially the midfield/backline, was hard to decide between Youth or Experienced players such as Tuck/Jackson, but at the stage we are at with our development we need experienced big bodied players in the team, no point throwing kids into the deep end when not necessary.

In fact I would be hopeful that Miller shows good enough form through his training and gets a spot in our forward line, I would love for Griffiths to develop like other young KPPs and that is through the Burgers.

 

[Madtiger2006]

That would have to be one of the worst starting 22s I have seen yet on this board MT, that backline setup like that would get murdered, the Forward line is to top heavy and the days of having 2 lumbering rucks are over.

FB Newman McGuane Moore/Farmer
HB Deledio Astbury Connors/Batchelor
C Martin Cotchin Morton/Edwards
HF Houli Griffiths White/Nason
FF Taylor Riewoldt King
Foll Graham Tuck Foley
I/C Jackson Grigg Conca Vickery/Post

EMER Webberley Thursfield Miller/Post Helbig

Obviously we are creating depth in certain areas, the forward line still needs alot of work with development into Taylor/Griffiths and hopeful that Houli can kick a few goals.

The backline IMO has the potential to be quite potent, with the skill being the main priority down back (McGuane aside), with the recruitment of Batchelor I can definately see Deledio being pushed further up the ground and hopefully kicking 20+ goals playing thorugh the midfield.

Midfield, well what can be said about it, on paper there is a lot of class in there with Cotchin, Martin, Conca and Morto and Foley with players such as Tuck, Jackson and Grigg doing the majority of the in and under stuff.

Graham is my first choice ruckman as it should be for others, he is a very good ruck for his age, and what he has produced at this current point in time in his development is much better then other established older rucks in the comp.

Vickery or Post for my second ruck option, both very mobile for there size and both can play forward, with Post having the ability to play back also, versatility is the key no need for 2 lumbering rucks.

The Emergencies are quite self explanatory, Thursfield if a back goes down, Miller/Post if a forward or ruck doesn't come up with 2 small midfielders/wingers in Helbig and Webbers.

After looking at the line up a few times, there looks to be alot of competition for some spots, especially the midfield/backline, was hard to decide between Youth or Experienced players such as Tuck/Jackson, but at the stage we are at with our development we need experienced big bodied players in the team, no point throwing kids into the deep end when not necessary.

In fact I would be hopeful that Miller shows good enough form through his training and gets a spot in our forward line, I would love for Griffiths to develop like other young KPPs and that is through the Burgers.

Yeah ok
I wouldn't have Tuck in the team, lacks composure under pressure. May win centre breaks but when he bombs the ball out of packs it's a 50-50 as to what happens next. Same with Jackson, lacks composure and occasionally sprays his kicks. I'd say replace them both with grigg and only have 1 of these 3 in any match. Can't afford to have more than one of them in the team. You have all 3 lol. Even worse you name Martin on the wing. I don't see Moore playing a vital role apart from his 2 games a year of the oppositions best forward. Mcguane will always be chosen ahead at full back and Moore won't be playing CHB at 190cm, when Astbury is there. Nothing wrong having Newman, Deledio and Connors in defence either, I think everyone has them in their back 6. I think playing Webberley in the back 6 is the best thing the club could do. He has the skill to allow Deledio to go into the middle at times and Gourdis coming off the bench gives us more good height. As for the forward line, I think Houli and Morton on the flanks is perfect. Remember King is not playing Round 1, but he'll be good competition. Taylor can rove packs in the forward pocket no worries and Griffiths is very quick and provides another marking option. Reiwoldt and Post take the Key positions

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

My suggested rotation through the midfield isn't Grigg Tuck & Conca. My suggest rotations are based around using Cotchin Martin Jackson Grigg Tuck Morton Conca Edwards Foley & Conca to rotate through. At a centre bounce you have 2 wingers, 2 HFF, 1 ruck rover, 1 rover & a centreman. Thats 7 positions, pick any 7 of the 10 names above and have them fill those positions. The only proviso I had was that you keep at least 2 of your genuine ball winners (bolded) rotating through the middle at all times. At least that way we can give guys like Cotchin and Martin the chance to play on the outside and have a break, which at the same time also allows us to better use their kicking skills, rather than have them trying to kick while an opponent hangs off them as they try and break away from a pack. Think about it like this an average quarter goes for 27-30 minutes, we could have Tuck & Cotchin start in the guts and go hard at it for 5 minutes, they rotate out for Martin and Jackson, who do the same, they rotate out for Grigg and Foley who follow suit. Halfway through the quarter we can then bring back Tuck and Cotchin who have had a 10 minute break from the bash and crash, who start the process again.

Why do you think sides like Collingwood and Geelong have been so successful in recent season? IMO, its because they get to rotate their better players through the middle more often thus keeping them fresher for longer. As I posted the other day Geelong had 7 midfielders who averaged 22+ possessions and 8+ contested possessions a game last year, we had 3(4 if you count Foleys 4 games). How do you expect to compete with that sort of difference?



Agree with you that Cotchin and Martin win enough of their own ball, but don't you think it would be much better to have the ball in their hands if they were able to spend some time playing on the outside, rather than being bashed and crashed inside. Thats my whole point. Guys like Tuck Jackson & Grigg allow us to play Martin and Cotchin on the outside, because we don't lose that ability to win contested footy. Not sure which games you were watching last year but there weren't many times where guys like Cotchin Martin & Lids were in space ahead of the ball. For the most part Lids was in our D50 and Cotchin and Martin were playing either inside mid or onball because we had no-one to turn to.


Ever since Hardwick has arrived he has spoken of playing a forward line with 3 talls. I also think that is why he has raised the possibility of Jack playing further up the ground, so that his defensive pressure can be better utilised. As for the 3 ruckman, they wouldn't be playing at the same time, Browne/Derickx would be the sub and would replace either Vickery or Graham depending on the situation.

BTW after watching training yesterday, I'm inclined to believe that the setup I've suggested is close to the mark. We had the 3 talls working through the fowardline and at times Cotchin and Martin were making space by playing on the outside.

It all comes down to one thing in reality, if we wish to play the 3 very biased inside mids, and that's their ability to set up play with handball . Both Tucky and Jacko arent good enough to set up play with handball to release players or find players through traffic, to allow us the luxury of playing Cotchin and Martin as outside mids , other thing is I think it would be a silly move to take our two best players in traffic and try and turn them into outside mids ?

 

[_RT_]

It all comes down to one thing in reality, if we wish to play the 3 very biased inside mids, and that's their ability to set up play with handball . Both Tucky and Jacko arent good enough to set up play with handball to release players or find players through traffic, to allow us the luxury of playing Cotchin and Martin as outside mids , other thing is I think it would be a silly move to take our two best players in traffic and try and turn them into outside mids ?

I'm not talking about turning Cotchin and Martin into purely outside mids, I'm suggesting that we do what we can to enable them to spend time playing as outside mids from time to time. The only way we'll be able to do that effectively is to include guys like Tuck Jackson & Grigg in the line up.

You say its a silly move to turn our 2 best in traffic players into outside mids, at the same time wouldn't it also be silly to keep 2 of our better ball users playing solely inside when they can be just as, if not more, damaging playing outside for periods of quarters as well.