Opinion Big Vickery - do you rate him?

[NUFC Tiger]

One thing that has interested me throughout this season and even prior has been seeing the different views people have on Vickery. Straight off the bat, I'm a fan of his so not sure why some of our fans don't rate him (maybe I am overlooking something?).

I've seen some people say if he can't make it as a ruck, he will/should be considered a failed pick. I've seen some people say if he can't make it as a forward, he's a failed pick. I've seen some people say we should trade him while he still has some currency and I've seen others say Hampson (if we land him), Mighty McBean and Azza Edwards are already ahead of him for 2014. Some have said he hasn't done enough to justify his selection or that he should be showing more.

So basically, just wanted to see where people see him playing (if at all) and why (for those who might not rate him) some don't see him as part of our best side in the coming years.

For my 2 cents, I see him as our second ruck (both at present and in future) who can share his time playing forward and providing support in the ruck. I think he had a reasonable 2013 (I said earlier in the year if he could chip in with 30 goals or so, that would be a great effort for him following a write off 2012 season). His ruck work was much improved I thought - his 2011 was arguably his career best season to date and he increased his average hitouts, disposals and marks over his 2011 averages. He also finished with 27 goals (a bit less than the 36 he kicked in 2011) playing one less game than he did in 2011 but not a bad effort for a guy coming off a shoulder reconstruction in 2012. Incidentally, he was our second highest goal kicker this season.

In saying that, he still (like nearly every other player on our list) can and needs to improve if we want to improve as a team. He can phase in and out of games from time to time so I like the idea of him pushing up the ground to try and get involved in handball chains etc. Not too keen on him dropping back or playing deep in defence like he did against Sydney this year - that would be better suited to Hampson if we get him as he can (despite his flaws), clunk a decent contested grab (Hampson is also terrible at set shots from what I've seen so Vickery probably offers more up forward anyway). I'm confident with another full preseason, Vickery will have a bigger and better 2014.

In future, I'm still not sure who I see being the number 1 ruck but with Vickery and McBean, we look like we have 2 200+ players who are quite mobile and agile for their size. Given McBean's successes at Coburg this year, perhaps we can afford to play both Vickery and McBean as key forwards who can also rotate through the ruck and get around the ground to give Maric/Hampson or someone else a breather (assuming if neither Vickery or McBean are our future number 1 rucks). At the moment, I think he is likely to be more of key forward first and back up ruck second than the other way around.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Further to the above, did a quick comparison of 2013 player stats to see how he compared


For hitouts (overall):
1. Minson - 860
2. Goldstein – 822
3. Jacobs – 622
10. Maric – 464
30. Vickery - 167

For Hitouts (average per game): have excluded players who played less than 11 games in 2013.
1. Minson – 39.1
2. Goldstein – 37.4
3. Warnock – 34.5
12. Maric – 23.2
24 (equal) Vickery – 8

For goals (only counting full time rucks and forwards with at least an average of 2 hitouts per game - to avoid key forwards who occasionally might be a chop out for their teams).
1. Roughead – 60HO, avg 2.4 – 72 goals
2. Petrie – 72HO, avg 3.3 – 48 goals
3. Westhoff – 62 HO, avg 2.7 – 31 goals
4. Pyke – 546 HO, avg 21.8 – 28 goals
5. Bellchambers – 395 HO, avg 21.9 – 28 goals.
6. Vickery – 167 HO, avg 8 – 27 goals.

 

[Mr Magic]

TV to be a good forward has to go against history.

Brendan Gale our CEO was at his best when he played in Ruck and assisted up forward.

TV is no doubt a Ruck forward. I am almost certain he cannot play against the best just as a forward.

I base this on history.

The best KPP forwards in history were shorter including in recent times. Cameron. Nick Reiwoldt, JR, Lockett, Carey, Roughhead, Brown , Walker, Dunstall, Ablett the list goes on.


In fact until we get another KPP forward back at an appropriate height(that has good mobility and ground level play) with sufficient ability at CHB or CHF we cannot win a premiership. JR needs support and so do our backs and they have not been getting it. Honestly at draft time I would have a look at McCarthy as a potential solution to fix our KPP issues


IMO Hampson now will directly be competing with TV long term as a Ruck/Forward along with others we have of similar height and mobility.

McBean might be on his own because of his freak movement for his height and be the exception like Buddy or Richo

Even the mighty Tredrea was 194cm- I rest my case.

Waiting for the future to provide the verdict experts!!

 

[Frustrated Tiger]

Further to the above, did a quick comparison of 2013 player stats to see how he compared


For hitouts (overall):
1. Minson - 860
2. Goldstein – 822
3. Jacobs – 622
10. Maric – 464
30. Vickery - 167

For Hitouts (average per game): have excluded players who played less than 11 games in 2013.
1. Minson – 39.1
2. Goldstein – 37.4
3. Warnock – 34.5
12. Maric – 23.2
24 (equal) Vickery – 8

For goals (only counting full time rucks and forwards with at least an average of 2 hitouts per game - to avoid key forwards who occasionally might be a chop out for their teams).
1. Roughead – 60HO, avg 2.4 – 72 goals
2. Petrie – 72HO, avg 3.3 – 48 goals
3. Westhoff – 62 HO, avg 2.7 – 31 goals
4. Pyke – 546 HO, avg 21.8 – 28 goals
5. Bellchambers – 395 HO, avg 21.9 – 28 goals.
6. Vickery – 167 HO, avg 8 – 27 goals.

Interesting set of figures and it shows that you have wayyyy to much time on your hands.

 

[rado]

Vickery is the least of our worries. Pretty good season coming back from shoulder reconstructions and will only get better from here. Probably the most important player in our side IMO. People who have have written him off/want to trade him have no idea, his production so far for someone of his dimensions and age is very good.

 

[Stevi_Tigers]

he's starting to grow on me for a while I thought he was the biggest spud going around, like a lot of our team consistency is not his strong point needs to work on it

 

[Hounddd]

The flak this guy receives (from our supporters) really irritates me. He's 23yrs old, and already is a permanent fixture in our forward line, along with ruck-work around the ground. His footskills for a big man are well above average, and his agility and movement in traffic for a big man is exceptional!
He came back from 2012, a year crippled by shoulder injuries, and snagged 30-odd. The guy oozes talent, and given another year or two will explode. I will put my gonads on him becoming a gun.

I think, in time however he will become a Ruck/forward, as opposed to his current 25-30% ruck work. The issue is he really surprised everyone with his 2011 season, and the bar was set for him to gradually improve from there on in. Let me just say 2012 really set him back, both physically and more critically, mentally. He lost all confidence in himself to crash into packs with his arms over his head. Give him time, we have a genuine future ruck/forward with great footskills and lateral movement, for the next 6-8yrs. He's a beauty!

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Interesting set of figures and it shows that you have wayyyy to much time on your hands.

Haha yep, slow day at work and with most of the rest of Australia on public holiday, had a lot of time to catch up on reading emails (by emails I mean bigfooty)

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Vickery is the least of our worries. Pretty good season coming back from shoulder reconstructions and will only get better from here. Probably the most important player in our side IMO. People who have have written him off/want to trade him have no idea, his production so far for someone of his dimensions and age is very good.

The flak this guy receives (from our supporters) really irritates me. He's 23yrs old, and already is a permanent fixture in our forward line, along with ruck-work around the ground. His footskills for a big man are well above average, and his agility and movement in traffic for a big man is exceptional!
He came back from 2012, a year crippled by shoulder injuries, and snagged 30-odd. The guy oozes talent, and given another year or two will explode. I will put my gonads on him becoming a gun.

I think, in time however he will become a Ruck/forward, as opposed to his current 25-30% ruck work. The issue is he really surprised everyone with his 2011 season, and the bar was set for him to gradually improve from there on in. Let me just say 2012 really set him back, both physically and more critically, mentally. He lost all confidence in himself to crash into packs with his arms over his head. Give him time, we have a genuine future ruck/forward with great footskills and lateral movement, for the next 6-8yrs. He's a beauty!

Agree with both of you guys - I just down get why he seems to not be rated by more of our fans. He's playing a difficult role and has had his share of injuries too. I think he could easily become one of the premier Ruck/Forwards in a few years time. He might not be a tap specialist ruck but if he can breakeven and still go ahead and kick 30-40 goals a year, that would be a huge boon to the side.

At the footy this year, I've heard him being labelled a spud, a showpony and useless by some of our fans which is disappointing as I think he has the tools to be a ripping player. He just needs a lot more confidence, luck in his body and more consistency - all of which should come with more time and development IMO.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

he's starting to grow on me for a while I thought he was the biggest spud going around, like a lot of our team consistency is not his strong point needs to work on it

Agree Stevi - he definitely seems to be the kind of player who needs to be involved in multiple pieces of play each quarter just to keep him involved/in game mode. I think his leading towards goal could use a bit of work but away from goal, he is quite good. If we could sort him out next year, it would be a big improvement to our forwardline IMO.

 

[TigermanM2]

Big fan.

Has improved an matured over the last couple of years (not vastly but progressively) and it will be good for him to have another genuine ruck/forward at the club competing for a spot. I think he needs it.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

TV to be a good forward has to go against history.

Brendan Gale our president was at his best when he played in Ruck and assisted up forward.

TV is no doubt a Ruck forward. I am almost certain he cannot play against the best just as a forward.

I base this on history.

The best KPP forwards in history were shorter including in recent times. Cameron. Nick Reiwoldt, JR, Lockett, Carey, Roughhead, Brown , Walker, Dunstall, Ablett the list goes on.


In fact until we get another KPP forward back at an appropriate height(that has good mobility and ground level play) with sufficient ability at CHB or CHF we cannot win a premiership. JR needs support and so do our backs and they have not been getting it. Honestly at draft time I would have a look at McCarthy as a potential solution to fix our KPP issues


IMO Hampson now will directly be competing with TV long term as a Ruck/Forward along with others we have of similar height and mobility.

McBean might be on his own because of his freak movement for his height and be the exception like Buddy or Richo

Even the mighty Tredrea was 194cm- I rest my case.

Waiting for the future to provide the verdict experts!!

Interesting post Magic - from the above, I'm guessing you hope he becomes our first ruck who can also 'rest' up forward?

I'm not sure if Vickery can become a better pure forward than Jack but obviously he has the height to be able to compete in the ruck.

If we do bring Hampson, from what I've seen, his set shots aren't great so I would prefer having him roam around the ground trying to take marks as opposed to playing more as a forward who we can throw into the ruck. I don't know a great deal about Hampson's rucking ability but can we fit all of Maric, Vickery, Hampson and even McBean into one side? That's very tall!

McBean is probably still another season away (at best) from being a lock in the best 22 anyway (assuming he can actually play at AFL level). From what Choco was saying at the B&F last week, they expect him to push for 10-12 games in 2014.

I think we also saw in the later stages of the season this year, Big O shouldering more of the ruck load with Maric playing more time forward - that might help manage his groin a bit.

 

[CHIMP MAGNET]

Rate.

Footy brain, athletic, good mark, kick & handball. Plays well up the ground and role play up fwd. Great size. Still a colt. Has his WTF moments and his work rate can drop off, lacks confidence in his body, but tracking well.

5 year deal next time round thanks Dan.

 

[Mr Magic]

Interesting post Magic - from the above, I'm guessing you hope he becomes our first ruck who can also 'rest' up forward?

I'm not sure if Vickery can become a better pure forward than Jack but obviously he has the height to be able to compete in the ruck.

If we do bring Hampson, from what I've seen, his set shots aren't great so I would prefer having him roam around the ground trying to take marks as opposed to playing more as a forward who we can throw into the ruck. I don't know a great deal about Hampson's rucking ability but can we fit all of Maric, Vickery, Hampson and even McBean into one side? That's very tall!

McBean is probably still another season away (at best) from being a lock in the best 22 anyway (assuming he can actually play at AFL level). From what Choco was saying at the B&F last week, they expect him to push for 10-12 games in 2014.

I think we also saw in the later stages of the season this year, Big O shouldering more of the ruck load with Maric playing more time forward - that might help manage his groin a bit.

I think TV is good enough to go half forward half ruck as opposed to Ruck rest forward but it depends on the team we put out on the field. If the team lacks run TV would have to play more ruck and have a player in the forward line that has more run.


I think people need to be very careful about the implications of being top heavy not just in terms of general run but forward effectiveness. Remembering the primary goal of the forward is to kick the goal. If you take a mark and cannot kick the goal with reasonable accuracy you will not win a GF anyway.

IMO we have far to many tall KKP and I thought until now we were going to play the majority of those through the ruck as they developed until we started targeting Hampson which to me gives us far too many top heavy types IMO.


We need a lot more KPP players to develop between 191cm to 195cm IMO like JR , even a guy like Schultz isn't that tall but more effective than some in his role. They have to be good though and good marks!!

I wouldn't be surprised if Freo shifts Fyfe from midfield to more a forward role next year either tbh

 

[nobulltiger]

Hard to say he's failed because he hasn't but he certainly hasn't justified his pick number

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Big fan.

Has improved an matured over the last couple of years (not vastly but progressively) and it will be good for him to have another genuine ruck/forward at the club competing for a spot. I think he needs it.

Yep, that's actually a good point TigermanM2 - I think previously Ty hasn't had a lot of pressure on his spot in the side. Bringing in someone else who can play a similar rol will hopefully give him a bit more hunger to improve and play well.

 

[mactier]

With the addition of Hampson, I think I'd like to see Ty spend more time in the forward line this year refining his game up there, working to team structures and getting some serious overhead confidence back. If Hampson is going to be roaming around the ground as our second ruck then that gives Ty free rein to just concentrate on that part of his game, and I think it would be excellent for him. He blew me away in round 1 last year against Carlton when he started to get some confidence in his marking back, his hands were so strong. I would like to see him do the same.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

I think TV is good enough to go half forward half ruck as opposed to Ruck rest forward but it depends on the team we put out on the field. If the team lacks run TV would have to play more ruck and have a player in the forward line that has more run.


I think people need to be very careful about the implications of being top heavy not just in terms of general run but forward effectiveness. Remembering the primary goal of the forward is to kick the goal. If you take a mark and cannot kick the goal with reasonable accuracy you will not win a GF anyway.

IMO we have far to many tall KKP and I thought until now we were going to play the majority of those through the ruck as they developed until we started targeting Hampson which to me gives us far too many top heavy types IMO.


We need a lot more KPP players to develop between 191cm to 195cm IMO like JR , even a guy like Schultz isn't that tall but more effective than some in his role. They have to be good though and good marks!!

I wouldn't be surprised if Freo shifts Fyfe from midfield to more a forward role next year either tbh

Yep, agree with a lot of this Magic - I don't want to be too top heavy/tall like you say. I think A. Edwards is actually a good size and option to have in the forward mix, he's about 185cm I think and so is a bit smaller and maybe more mobile than a KPP. I think I heard someone saying we should go for Karnezis from Brisbane as he is a similar medium forward type (and obviously a bit younger than Edwards). Can O'Hanlon be that third forward for us do you think?

 

[Mr Magic]

Yep, agree with a lot of this Magic - I don't want to be too top heavy/tall like you say. I think A. Edwards is actually a good size and option to have in the forward mix, he's about 185cm I think and so is a bit smaller and maybe more mobile than a KPP. I think I heard someone saying we should go for Karnezis from Brisbane as he is a similar medium forward type (and obviously a bit younger than Edwards). Can O'Hanlon be that third forward for us do you think?

With O'Hanlon you would hope so but he has to prove himself. Not sure he has done to much yet and doesn;t have the agility of someone like a SJ. Not sure if O'Hanlon moves well enough tbh for his size as a forward. He really needs to have a star quality if not the total package like great speed or great mark etc.. O'Hanlon might be able to play somewhere else as well as he is midfielder size

Don't think Karnezis is good enough, too stringy not enough strings in his bow IMO. McCarthy reads okay in phantoms for a potential swingman CHF and CHB but have to have a look at his videos before I can make a more astute prediction. Actually Karnezis may be useful in a pretty good forward set up where he could play the right role. I would only entertain getting Karnezis as a value play though! How quick is Karnezis?

Rohan is someone I would be looking at into the future and it will be interested who else the Swans are looking to release after Buddy

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Hard to say he's failed because he hasn't but he certainly hasn't justified his pick number

Having a look at the 2008 draft, you could argue that there were players picked after him that have done more to date but in saying that, the general rule is KPP draftees normally take a bit longer to hit their straps as they need to compete against mature, big bodied opponents. Vickery has also had some fairly serious injuries slowing his progress too.

I'm not sure if we went draft best available or went for needs in the 2008 draft (someone might be able to confirm) but if we went for a player who could play forward or ruck the only notable picks after Vickery would include Zac Clarke, Jordan Roughead, Shaun McKernan and Jarrad Redden (not sure if I missed anyone). Pyke also went in the rookie draft I think.

 

[wart101]

Oh **** me, he is 23......just ffs.......

 

[avengers]

Rate him, I believe he can be tippett like, big strong quick 200cm forward that can pinch hit in the ruck when the 2nd ruckman is subbed off mainly in the last quarter.
Everyone knows big guys take time except for freaks like nic nat, but in 2011 he kicked 36 goals unfortunately his shoulder injury last year has set him back but i think he can step up next year and kick around that 40 goal mark

 

[rado]

Hard to say he's failed because he hasn't but he certainly hasn't justified his pick number

Disagree. Going forward I would take him ahead of Watts, Hurley and Yarran, and would be on par with Hill and Rich and probably even Hartlett. I am aware these 3 have outperformed him currently, but given his position I would argue he is more important to a team than those 3. Only player I would trade him for is Nic Nat.
That is all the players that were drafted ahead of him, and therefore I think he will definitely justify his draft position and potentially exceed that by the time his career is over.

 

[zimma]

That is all the players that were drafted ahead of him, and therefore I think he will definitely justify his draft position and potentially exceed that by the time his career is over.

In terms of who was drafted after him though a couple of them wouldn't be too bad... Hurts more if you look at some who were drafted after Post that year though.

 

[Roachy8]

Vickery always draws plenty of comment - not sure why!
Is 50 times the player Cam Mooney was and he won what... 3 flags?

As someone posted, Vickery is the least of our worries.