Bluemour Melting Pot XXII

[Gethelred]

Not saying you are wrong but technically there is contraints in all employments - and I dare say one day some w***er will go to court over constraint of trade or whatever. Eye roll at people who think like that.

You sign up to play under the AFL rules - don't go crying to the courts when you don't get what you want. Don't like it, then don't play - simples....

There certainly are, but said constraints need to have a suitable reason behind them (ie, to prevent intellectual property theft, insider trading, to avoid damaging the original company via industry connections, etc.) and bear in mind, most restraints of trade are not taken to court. It is - in general - very expensive to do so, and so people weigh the balances in favour of just dealing with it.

The AFL in particular is a bit of a minefield, from a legal standpoint. The draft itself could very well be legal - in that, if the balance of the competition is weighed to be in the best interests of the competition and the public itself - but what occurs when a contract ends - before FA - could definitely be considered restraint of trade.

Picture this scenario: player X asks for a trade, a year out of their contract expiry. Club refuses to countenance it, holds them to their contract. Player x plays the next season, and the club fairs pretty badly. Player x asks for trade, and his contract is expired now, so by general contract law (not the AFL's rules) he is no longer bound by contract to remain there, and should be free to pursue other suitors in an open marketplace. However, in an AFL context, his original contract holder has first option to his contract, and if another club wishes to obtain his services, they must go through the original contract holder to do so. This is not in the public interest, and is not in the interests of the individual.

Therefore - in the event of GC redrafting Martin - he would have a very good case to challenge the AFL's end of contract rules, and to argue they constitute a restraint of trade. It is in the best interests of the AFL not to blow that up, because each case that goes before a courtroom is a situation the AFL cannot stagemanage, and another rule they cannot manipulate. This happens, we have UFA at the conclusion of each contract. Not sure the AFL or the public would want to go down that road.

 

[Gethelred]

Or as they would argue it - Carlton valued him less than we did, we were unable to agree to a suitable trade, we tried to convince him to sign a contract extension, he instead chose to enter the draft in an attempt to get to Carlton via that route, he agreed to the terms of the draft nomination process (ie. he nominated his contractual requirements, and in signing the nomination form agreed to play for whichever club was prepared to meet those requirements and select him with their draft pick), which we did.

... which is the other side of the argument.

However, if what you're arguing is that the end of contract rules of the AFL are unlawful, the stipulations of the PSD are not relevant to the case in question. If one tried to argue that the PSD is unlawful, that immediately becomes shaky ground, because it's a question that has been found both ways before.

 

[SickQwon]

1. No one is taking the AFL to court.

2. The AFL contacted Carlton after trade week to essentially apologise for GC being a bunch of moronic dicks over the trade for a reason.

3. TLA worked through a whole of company strategy to get Martin to Carlton for a reason.

4. All activities and statements since, by GC and Melbourne, are nothing more than posturing to make the press conferences after PSD more palatable.

Right now we are in the narrative crafting phase of the mess. Anyone who’s been in business will recognise this for what it is. I build storylines for months just to make one meeting/decision easier and this is what’s happening now albeit shorter time frames.

Martin will be at Carlton next year.

Personally, I've found this situation with AFL getting Martin to Carlton to be very transparent. It's obvious the AFL told GC to act tough at the trade table and as a reward for "playing along", Carlton still end up with Martin.
Both clubs and the AFL win in this scenario.

 

[Gethelred]

Any love for Connor Menadue? Played 6 games for the Premiers. Was pretty solid in their premiership twos. Line breaking runner. Can play, just couldn’t get the opportunities at a very strong club. Like Butler, needed to look elsewhere.

I really liked him in his draft year, but at AFL level seems to get a bit lost, and hasn't seemed to put on the size necessary for AFL. He's a runner who is not super quick, plays inside and out but struggles to find his own ball and get to good positions at AFL level. He's not a huge accumulator of the ball, either. Doesn't have a fixed position, either IMO; flanker, mid?

He'd be interesting as an option - to try an get him to show ability he hasn't at the top level yet - but I don't know if he'll ever be much more than a good VFL player.

 

[Gethelred]

With all due respect, the guy loves his footy and passionate about making Gold Coast work.
He says some weird things and weird style at times but have no doubt his heart in right place to make the club work.

I've got a question, though. Does having one's heart in the right place immediately make them the right person for the job? Especially when it's such a fragile situation for them up there, and they are genuinely fighting the rest of the AFL - the clubs, not head office - the media and the fans both at home and away.

Someone who is passionate is probably a good move, but someone who allows their passion to rule them and make them override their list management team during trade period is not someone who should be guiding a business.

 

[Jeremias]

Personally, I've found this situation with AFL getting Martin to Carlton to be very transparent. It's obvious the AFL told GC to act tough at the trade table and as a reward for "playing along", Carlton still end up with Martin.
Both clubs and the AFL win in this scenario.

I don't see how the GC win here at all, other than for the concessions they received, which will not continue every year.

If we as fans can see through the false bravado, you don't think other clubs will also?

If the Suns want to take a stand on a player, that is their prerogative, but I would argue it is the wrong player to have done so with, given he's OOC and will almost certainly end up at Carlton regardless.

I don't believe clubs are going to look at the Suns now and say, "oh we better act in good faith, because they've shown they won't be ****ed with". Every year is different. Every single negotiation about a player is different.

 

[Yubby]

5 Senior List spots and 2 Rookie List spots ...

Out - Pickett, Thomas, Lobbe, Fasolo, Garlett, Kerr, Schumacher, Phillips
Out - Lebois, DeLuca

In. - Betts, Pittonet, Newnes

Hey Gap, wasn't DeLuca a LTI selection and thus there isn't actually a real list spot there? He was brought in as Doc was out injured.

 

[Gethelred]

My bet is something will happen Melb cup day. Maybe an article about Martin talked with dew, Dew and GC have decided to part ways with Martin now etc etc etc

... because, like all shit politicians, Gill thinks they can hide bad news behind something else.

 

[Jeremias]

Hey Gap, wasn't DeLuca a LTI selection and thus there isn't actually a real list spot there? He was brought in as Doc was out injured.

Pretty sure Gibbons and Cottrell were our injury replacement selections, and that we held a spot over for a pick in the mid season draft.

 

[Gethelred]

I don't see how the GC win here at all, other than for the concessions they received, which will not continue every year.

If we as fans can see through the false bravado, you don't think other clubs will also?

If the Suns want to take a stand on a player, that is their prerogative, but I would argue it is the wrong player to have done so with, given he's OOC and will almost certainly end up at Carlton regardless.

I don't believe clubs are going to look at the Suns now and say, "oh we better act in good faith, because they've shown they won't be f’ed with". Every year is different. Every single negotiation about a player is different.

We as fans are actively engaged, and are somewhat nonplussed by their stance allowing us to get a player for nothing beyond their salary. Opposition fans and casual supporters of the sport - who don't know the rules governing the PSD or AFL contracts, and don't have BF to explain it to them - are going to eat this up. I mean, it's got all the bases covered; player wanting out of GC, Carlton being too inept to get a trade done, scandalous for the AFL (potential restraint of trade).

At this point, it isn't the Suns making the news, it's the media. The Suns have already done what they wanted to do; they demonstrated that, if you do not do what it takes to satisfy them even with the prospect of losing the player for nothing, they can and will hold firm. Paying attention, Adelaide/Port (and potentially Carlton, with Rowell in 2 years)? They need to be able to force overs for these trades, otherwise their position is utterly untenable; well, more than it already is.

 

[GoBlues!]

Is there any way that Papley can get to Carlton for 2020 season?

Interesting question JaB. First response is no, there’s a contract in place which must be honoured.

But if we talk about honour and integrity, the swans were willing trade him away to gain a more desirable player. There might be something in the constitution, or the vibe about this worth looking at..... I’ll call Dennis.

 

[RoyalParade]

Where we at right now RP? I was about to count it up but sounds like you’ve done it?

Yeah with newnes, we now have 35 on the main list, 3 on cat a rookie.

We take Martin, . That takes us to 36.

Take 3 in the draft, 1 spare for spp period, or mid year

 

[The Bighouse]

Pretty sure Gibbons and Cottrell were our injury replacement selections, and that we held a spot over for a pick in the mid season draft.

Yep but if we have 5 positions left for seniors (40/4) then only 1 rookie spot remains; Goddard, Gibbons, Cottrell currently occupy 3 of the 4 unless we split 39/5 or 38/6

 

[SickQwon]

I don't see how the GC win here at all, other than for the concessions they received, which will not continue every year.

If we as fans can see through the false bravado, you don't think other clubs will also?

If the Suns want to take a stand on a player, that is their prerogative, but I would argue it is the wrong player to have done so with, given he's OOC and will almost certainly end up at Carlton regardless.

I don't believe clubs are going to look at the Suns now and say, "oh we better act in good faith, because they've shown they won't be f’ed with". Every year is different. Every single negotiation about a player is different.

Lmao, it's not about what clubs think. It's about the players not being able to walk out of the club to wherever they choose. Lukocious won't get to Adelaide for unders like GC have done with other players in the past. Instead a suitable trade will be offered or he gets sent to the PSD where North Melbourne or someother shitty club will pick him up.

 

[elio1966]

We also have Owies as a Rookie.



On CPH1607 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Jeremias]

Lmao, it's not about what clubs think. It's about the players not being able to walk out of the club to wherever they choose. Lukocious won't get to Adelaide for unders like GC have done with other players in the past. Instead a suitable trade will be offered or he gets sent to the PSD where North Melbourne or someother shitty club will pick him up.

Everyone can see through it. Fans, players, managers, other clubs. Everyone.

They may well want to take a stand and make a statement, but Martin was the wrong player to do it with, seeing as though we're almost certain to end up with him anyway.

As I said, this is not a one size fits all situation. Every player negotiation is different, every year is different. You are kidding yourself if you think the Suns will happily continue to lose quality players for free, just to be seen to be taking a stand.

Lukosius will either re-sign with the Suns or he'll end up at the club of his choosing. Surely you don't really think they'll let the #2 pick walk for nothing 2 years into his career?

 

[footyfan1978]

There is another list lodgement on Nov 12, and another dfa period from Nov 13 to 22

Very cool. Now I am more excited again...lol.. serious roller coaster ride the last month

 

[bmaurizio]

Personally, I've found this situation with AFL getting Martin to Carlton to be very transparent. It's obvious the AFL told GC to act tough at the trade table and as a reward for "playing along", Carlton still end up with Martin.
Both clubs and the AFL win in this scenario.

Succinctly put, its all about manufacturing the right image whilst churning the turnstiles, managing a captured a market is not easy for Gil the Dill, has to earn his bacon.

 

[footyfan1978]

I've got a question, though. Does having one's heart in the right place immediately make them the right person for the job? Especially when it's such a fragile situation for them up there, and they are genuinely fighting the rest of the AFL - the clubs, not head office - the media and the fans both at home and away.

Someone who is passionate is probably a good move, but someone who allows their passion to rule them and make them override their list management team during trade period is not someone who should be guiding a business.

To answer your first question.
He can have his heart in right place and be bad at his role.
I think his passion does rule him in the media with microphone in front of him.
He is like Kennett with his mouth but not as used to media.
He does harm at times imo but I seen enough of him now to go from first impression total crackpot to seeing him also speak sense and talk about the task of Gold Coast being turned into a real football club for long term. He is a long way from perfect. For Gold Coast he does more good than harm.

I've personally not heard exactly first hand him during trade period so hear a lot of second and third hand stuff that I do not know whether correct or just what we want to believe. If he had a play in Martin not getting traded when others in Suns were willing to, that is a bad choice. Also heard Liddle might have overstepped mark at times with Ellis and list management. Hopefully they learn their lessons but I think these guys do more good than harm.

 

[SickQwon]

Everyone can see through it. Fans, players, managers, other clubs. Everyone.

They may well want to take a stand and make a statement, but Martin was the wrong player to do it with, seeing as though we're almost certain to end up with him anyway.

As I said, this is not a one size fits all situation. Every player negotiation is different, every year is different. You are kidding yourself if you think the Suns will happily continue to lose quality players for free, just to be seen to be taking a stand.

Lukosius will either re-sign with the Suns or he'll end up at the club of his choosing. Surely you don't really think they'll let the #2 pick walk for nothing 2 years into his career?

Players will stay if they're not going to be able to walk to their club of choice. It's as simple as that. This is helping GC retain their players. Additionally, when a player does end up to his club of choosing, it will be for a fair price. GC can only win from this strategy, they're not going to lose sleep for missing out on a late 2nd round pick or whatever.

 

[JustaBattler]

Wouldn't have thought so. There's direct precedent in an AFL player seeking to leave their current club whilst under contract (Buckenara v Hawthorn Football Club Ltd [1988] VR 39.) and a court found in favour of the contract holders, and forced him to sit out the term of the contract.

I am unfamiliar with the Byzantine rules regarding dates and player status and multiple times that this or that contract or status can be changed and how one could go about managing a player out of one place into another - I guess my simple question is - 'is there a mechanism this year by which Shitney and Carlton can come to some sort of agreement regarding Papley to see Papley at Carlton in 2020?

 

[Doro]

I am unfamiliar with the Byzantine rules regarding dates and player status and multiple times that this or that contract or status can be changed and how one could go about managing a player out of one place into another - I guess my simple question is - 'is there a mechanism this year by which Shitney and Carlton can come to some sort of agreement regarding Papley to see Papley at Carlton in 2020?

No, Papley plays for Sydney in 2020. Has a contract and trade period is finished.

 

[GoBlues!]

Players will stay if they're not going to be able to walk to their club of choice. It's as simple as that. This is helping GC retain their players. Additionally, when a player does end up to his club of choosing, it will be for a fair price. GC can only win from this strategy, they're not going to lose sleep for missing out on a late 2nd round pick or whatever.

I see your point SQ - the Suns (and AFL) want to send a message to future players that it won't be easy and they may not end up at their club of choice if the deal isn't to the clubs liking.

Issue is the credibility of the Suns, and whether this was the trade to make their point. If SOS offered a fair price for Jack Martin based on where that player is at now, which other AFL clubs would be aware of, then the Suns will be seen as dickheads. Either way the message to future players is clear and the Suns are probably still dickheads to deal with.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

I am unfamiliar with the Byzantine rules regarding dates and player status and multiple times that this or that contract or status can be changed and how one could go about managing a player out of one place into another - I guess my simple question is - 'is there a mechanism this year by which Shitney and Carlton can come to some sort of agreement regarding Papley to see Papley at Carlton in 2020?

Not in 2020 JaB, but if he requests a trade again at the end of the season, there'd likely be a greater chance that it will happen, given the trade wouldn't be tied in with another deal like the debacle that just happened.

Sydney's decision to acquire both Lewis Taylor and Sam Grey interesting as well....almost appears that they are stockpiling smaller forwards this year in anticipation of a trade request from Papley again at the end of the season. An additional first round pick in 2020 would be pretty handy for them as well to pick up their academy boys.

It may also be a bit of a 'moneyball' approach to get these players like Taylor and Grey on their books for not much, clearing the way for an aggressive bid for Daniher as a FA. Acquiring Daniher would also lessen the blow of losing Papley, as per this trade period. We know now that if Daniher was at the Swans right now, Papley would already be a Blue.

 

[VainGlorious]

Be careful on twitter folks, just saw cripps photoshopped into a collingwood jumper bleghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh