Bluemour Melting Pot XXII

[F_therest]

I think we've got a responsibility to not take these sorts of rumours at face value though.

There's some hypothetical discussion that's fun to have even if it feels unrealistic, but we're talking about people slamming the club CEO over SOS's exit when the rumours being thrown around have massive logic gaps.

Maybe Liddle is a power-hungry monster who outed SOS unfairly so he could play list manager himself. Maybe SOS was an egotistical tyrant who belittled and demeaned the abilities of his own team. Or maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, and the recruiting team was becoming dysfunctional, the CEO had to involve himself to try and break the deadlock, and the incumbent list manager took issue with being managed and the relationship went to sh*t.

People want a villain, someone to blame. Good for them. Life is rarely that clear cut though.

Oh for sure, what i meant was taking it at face value for the purpose of discussion...i'm not taking it as fact.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Liddle stepped in because of something said to him by Agresta/Lloyd or even Teague (who really wanted Betts), who could have felt their wishes were going unheard by SOS. Again, not to needlessly tarnish SOS, this is just a hypothetical.

 

[Aphrodite]

Ellis?

Ellis?

Who gives a fu** about Ellis

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Everyone knows this is how recruiting works.

Is that the SOS/Martin camp or the Agresta/Ellis camp?

 

[DangerousD]

I think players like Newnes and Ellis look better in strong/winning sides

We know this to be the case for Ellis, but has Newnes ever looked good in a good side? He does play for the Saints.

 

[F_therest]

Newnes and Ellis are much of a muchness.

Newnes is tougher. And came cheaper. Also provides leadership qualities (was always highly rated at Saints in this regard).

Richmond supporters always used to get frustrated at Ellis for being scared of contact. It was only last year he was suspended alongside Broad for getting blind drunk in Mildura or something during the season.

I definitely prefer Newnes.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Is that the SOS/Martin camp or the Agresta/Ellis camp?

Both.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Newnes and Ellis are much of a muchness.

No they’re not. Definitely two different people.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Newnes is tougher. And came cheaper. Also provides leadership qualities (was always highly rated at Saints in this regard).

Richmond supporters always used to get frustrated at Ellis for being scared of contact. It was only last year he was suspended alongside Broad for getting blind drunk in Mildura or something during the season.

I definitely prefer Newnes.

Ellis is the better player obviously, but with the ridiculous money he wanted and is getting at the Suns, I prefer Newnes.

The days of us grossly overpaying average players/battlers from other clubs is (hopefully) long over.

I have no issues with Ellis chasing a big pay day (He has a sick parent to take care of I believe and medical bills are so excessive these days) but i am glad our club didn't meet his financial demands.

He is not going to be a 200 game player for our club, but Newnes will be a handy atop gap/depth player until some of our raw kids develop and put some some muscle/body weight.

We have to be pragmatic and realistic about list management issues, name me the last time (if ever) there was a premiership team of 18/22 champions/star players.

Even journeyman Matt Spangher (bless his cotton socks) was a premiership player with the Hawks.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Ellis is the better player obviously, but with the ridiculous money he wanted and is getting at the Suns, I prefer Newnes.

The days of us grossly overpaying average players/battlers from other clubs is (hopefully) long over.

I have no issues with Ellis chasing a big pay day (He has a sick parent to take care of I believe and medical bills are so excessive these days) but i am glad our club didn't meet his financial demands.

He is not going to be a 200 game player for our club, but Newnes will be a handy atop gap/depth player until some of our raw kids develop and put some some muscle/body weight.

We have to be pragmatic and realistic about list management issues, name me the last time (if ever) there was a premiership team of 18/22 champions/star players.

Even journeyman Matt Spangher (bless his cotton socks) was a premiership player with the Hawks.

Ellis only demanded band 3 compo and at his age that means the avg base wage wouldn’t have been too excessive.
The way I look at it is we could’ve got him for ~$500k PA. Say that’s overpaying him by $100k PA (puts him worth $400k) then we would’ve overpaid him about $500k over five years. Overpaying him $500k out of ~$65mil of salary cap room over those years I could live with considering who we are currently overpaying for little reward.
Length of the contract was my worry but I don’t believe that it’s a foregone conclusion that he will be passed by our younger players. He made the AA squad in his third season, compare that to what our third year players are doing and it’s ambitious to
assume our players are all going to develop to go past him. He has been a reliable player on a two time premiership side so we know what we were going to get. We have seemed to put most of our salary cap room into players on potential rather then performance so I can understand that it would be a change in philosophy to over pay an average player to be average rather then a poor player who could hopefully become a gun.
I’m not a big fan of his but give me him and his contract over Newnes everyday of the week.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Ellis only demanded band 3 compo and at his age that means the avg base wage wouldn’t have been too excessive.
The way I look at it is we could’ve got him for ~$500k PA. Say that’s overpaying him by $100k PA (puts him worth $400k) then we would’ve overpaid him about $500k over five years. Overpaying him $500k out of ~$65mil of salary cap room over those years I could live with considering who we are currently overpaying for little reward.
Length of the contract was my worry but I don’t believe that it’s a foregone conclusion that he will be passed by our younger players. He made the AA squad in his third season, compare that to what our third year players are doing and it’s ambitious to
assume our players are all going to develop to go past him. He has been a reliable player on a two time premiership side so we know what we were going to get. We have seemed to put most of our salary cap room into players on potential rather then performance so I can understand that it would be a change in philosophy to over pay an average player to be average rather then a poor player who could hopefully become a gun.
I’m not a big fan of his but give me him and his contract over Newnes everyday of the week.

Meh; what's done is done.

Obviously Ellis did something which made the club walk away from offering him a contract, and I am inclined to back the club's braintrust here.

Honestly believe you are overrating Ellis, he is a serviceable player but not a match winner.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Meh; what's done is done.

Obviously Ellis did something which made the club walk away from offering him a contract, and I am inclined to back the club's braintrust here.

Honestly believe you are overrating Ellis, he is a serviceable player but not a match winner.

I’m not overly concerned, I just would’ve preferred him to Newnes. I know he isn’t a match winner, just a handy steady player. Something our bottom few don’t bring.

 

[3rd Grade Maggy]

I too think Brittain was hard done by and made a scapegoat for poor management. I think it's time to re-hash the debate.

 

[GT619]

Newnes and Ellis are much of a muchness.

Malaka

 

[Rosscoe]

This old chestnut again?

I'm still seeing massive inconsistencies in how these stories are presented.

Agresta + Co wanted Ellis for less money and no picks, which seems an understandable attitude to have regarding recruitment of senior players.
We only got Martin for no picks because Gold Coast were about as stupid as you could possibly be, not because of SOS's genius planning. There was a not insignificant risk that GC would redraft him (see their earlier stupidity) or Melbourne would take a chance.
SOS apparently decided he preferred Martin once Martin became available, but Martin's interest in us was heavily influenced by Eddie coming on board which SOS was supposedly against (and undermined on).

And I'm still really unsure as to why the conversation is supposedly Ellis vs. Martin, given we apparently still have ample salary cap space, there's no either/or when it comes to Martin and Ellis, we could have had both. If anything, it seems to me that Newnes vs. Ellis is the relevant comparison. If Ellis was supposedly gettable for $400-500k as thought, what do we reckon Newnes is on, $300-400k? Does anyone think that, for all our talk of "lots of salary space" that we couldn't have squeezed an extra $100k a year to get Ellis instead of Newnes had we wanted to?

I respectfully disagree bb..here is how I see it

I reckon Ellis management used Carlton to get a better deal from the Suns.

As far as Martin goes. SOS offered them a fair deal and they extraordinarily wanted less. If GCS had any fans I am sure they would have considered this a failure.

Martin wanted Carlton more for the Cripps connection than anything else.

The comparisons of Ellis and Martin are fair as it has been reported from various publications that they are both on 600k per year.

I think you would agree and that it is also important to note that Sos has been back at the club watching his boys play. So there is no resentment on his part as to the events that led to his exit at Carlton.

I agree bringing up SOS every time we play well is counterproductive. He was one part of a large process that goes into winning.

It is up to who is at the club now to produce the results as our list has largely been built. If they do then no doubt we will note the work SOS put in. If they don’t then we all fail together.

So there should be no division amongst our club, no liddle camp, no SOS camp..just all of us together believing that as a whole our club can and will win a flag.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I respectfully disagree bb..here is how I see it

I reckon Ellis management used Carlton to get a better deal from the Suns.

As far as Martin goes. SOS offered them a fair deal and they extraordinarily wanted less. If GCS had any fans I am sure they would have considered this a failure.

Martin wanted Carlton more for the Cripps connection than anything else.

The comparisons of Ellis and Martin are fair as it has been reported from various publications that they are both on 600k per year.

I think you would agree and that it is also important to note that Sos has been back at the club watching his boys play. So there is no resentment on his part as to the events that led to his exit at Carlton.

I agree bringing up SOS every time we play well is counterproductive. He was one part of a large process that goes into winning.

It is up to who is at the club now to produce the results as our list has largely been built. If they do then no doubt we will note the work SOS put in. If they don’t then we all fail together.

So there should be no division amongst our club, no liddle camp, no SOS camp..just all of us together believing that as a whole our club can and will win a flag.

Reckon some of what you've suggested there makes sense.

I think the Ellis camp's intentions are separate to the discussion - the debate has been around what our intentions were, or more specifically, a theory that the CEO decided he wanted to recruit Ellis and strayed outside his lane to try and make it happen. I figure if he wanted him that badly, we'd have made an offer, and it's more likely that Liddle's involvement was at the request of individuals within the List Management team (either because people under SOS felt he wasn't allowing them to do their due diligence, or because Liddle's prior connected with Ellis made him a good candidate to make an approach).

I'm seeing some support in other posts for Gold Coast's stance on Martin as something that is helping to build their culture. I disagree. A lot. I don't see any cultural benefits in forcing someone who has given a basketcase club 7 years of his life into the PSD instead of accepting a suitable trade. Maybe it scares some players into not asking to leave? Otherwise, all it says is "you're stuck here until we decide we don't want you, and if you want to get out we'll make your life hell".

Cripps connection. Eddie connection. Either way, that's a club-driven acquisition. People who are suggesting SOS didn't want Ellis because he preferred Martin overlook the fact that we could have walked away with both, but ignoring Ellis in favour of Martin may have resulted in us getting neither.

The dollar comparison is beside the point. The point is that we have salary space and could have recruited both if we wanted to, especially when it became evident Cogs wasn't happening. So it wasn't a one or the other scenario, and the choice not to pursue Ellis any further is more likely related to the acquisition of Newnes, who plays the same position, was also a FA, and while less decorated also cost less salary space.

I'm glad to hear SOS has been around the club. That's not to say there wouldn't be resentment towards individuals, though it is a good sign that the relationship wasn't as fractured as some have suggested. At the end of the day, he was a club great on the field, may end up being considered a club great off the field, and regardless of whether he was the right fit moving forward he should always feel welcome to walk through the doors. Who knows, maybe in hindsight he'll be glad he stepped back so he could just enjoy watching the club march back up the ladder, with his sons part of that coming success.

 

[Lace_Out]

Meh; what's done is done.

Obviously Ellis did something which made the club walk away from offering him a contract, and I am inclined to back the club's braintrust here.

Honestly believe you are overrating Ellis, he is a serviceable player but not a match winner.

The offer that GC made Ellis was a once in a lifetime offer for a player of his calibre. The rest is history.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[ferrisb]

I too think Brittain was hard done by and made a scapegoat for poor management. I think it's time to re-hash the debate.

Sure, but did we win the Judd trade and how should we have better managed Fev's immaturity?

 

[Robbo's my hero]

Sure, but did we win the Judd trade and how should we have better managed Fev's immaturity?

Now we didn’t win the Judd trade and Fev needed a permanent minder.

 

[Rosscoe]

Reckon some of what you've suggested there makes sense.

I think the Ellis camp's intentions are separate to the discussion - the debate has been around what our intentions were, or more specifically, a theory that the CEO decided he wanted to recruit Ellis and strayed outside his lane to try and make it happen. I figure if he wanted him that badly, we'd have made an offer, and it's more likely that Liddle's involvement was at the request of individuals within the List Management team (either because people under SOS felt he wasn't allowing them to do their due diligence, or because Liddle's prior connected with Ellis made him a good candidate to make an approach).

I'm seeing some support in other posts for Gold Coast's stance on Martin as something that is helping to build their culture. I disagree. A lot. I don't see any cultural benefits in forcing someone who has given a basketcase club 7 years of his life into the PSD instead of accepting a suitable trade. Maybe it scares some players into not asking to leave? Otherwise, all it says is "you're stuck here until we decide we don't want you, and if you want to get out we'll make your life hell".

Cripps connection. Eddie connection. Either way, that's a club-driven acquisition. People who are suggesting SOS didn't want Ellis because he preferred Martin overlook the fact that we could have walked away with both, but ignoring Ellis in favour of Martin may have resulted in us getting neither.

The dollar comparison is beside the point. The point is that we have salary space and could have recruited both if we wanted to, especially when it became evident Cogs wasn't happening. So it wasn't a one or the other scenario, and the choice not to pursue Ellis any further is more likely related to the acquisition of Newnes, who plays the same position, was also a FA, and while less decorated also cost less salary space.

I'm glad to hear SOS has been around the club. That's not to say there wouldn't be resentment towards individuals, though it is a good sign that the relationship wasn't as fractured as some have suggested. At the end of the day, he was a club great on the field, may end up being considered a club great off the field, and regardless of whether he was the right fit moving forward he should always feel welcome to walk through the doors. Who knows, maybe in hindsight he'll be glad he stepped back so he could just enjoy watching the club march back up the ladder, with his sons part of that coming success.

I hope so

 

[LanceRomance]

Apparently we are after Charlie Cameron

 

[Setterfides]

Apparently we are after Charlie Cameron

Reckon someone might’ve slipped this info to Tommy Browne to bump up his price a bit at Brisbane. Us and North have a reputation of being into everyone, so it’s believable that we’d be interested, but probably unrealistic

 

[F_therest]

Reckon someone might’ve slipped this info to Tommy Browne to bump up his price a bit at Brisbane. Us and North have a reputation of being into everyone, so it’s believable that we’d be interested, but probably unrealistic

Really seems like a ploy from Charlie's manager to get a contract extension and upgrade early from Brisbane with another year to go.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

If it’s so obvious why would a club entertain it. Just saying.

 

[bigblueboy]

Some chance we will end up in Sydney hub. Haven’t yet played Suns, Lions, Giants. Qld teams likely to return home via NSW. Expect round 6 to change - possibly our game against Swans to be shifted north and then play a ‘home’ game against Suns at the Showgrounds.

 

[F_therest]

Some chance we will end up in Sydney hub. Haven’t yet played Suns, Lions, Giants. Qld teams likely to return home via NSW. Expect round 6 to change - possibly our game against Swans to be shifted north and then play a ‘home’ game against Suns at the Showgrounds.

Ha so we could lose back to back mcg games.

To marvel vs saints and scg vs swans...