Expansion Canberra

[Engimal v3]

That's one of the benefits Canberra would have over Tasmania (still not saying we should get a team before they do). The stats above show Canberra has roughly the same amount of AFL fans as Hobart, most of which would already have a team. But with roughly double the population, it shows there are so many people without an AFL team. And if they can be brought to AFL, Canberra will be their #1 team.

It's a bit of a middle ground bid between GWS and Tasmania. More initial support and easier to start up than GWS, but more room to grow than Tasmania.

Canberra is 90%+ of the ACTs population, whereas Hobart is under 40% of Tasmania's. Not exactly a 1 for 1 comparison.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Canberra is 90%+ of the ACTs population, whereas Hobart is under 40% of Tasmania's. Not exactly a 1 for 1 comparison.

More the other way around. The ACT is only 90% of Canberra's population.

But I don't bring up Hobart to disparage a Tassie bid. I think and hope you guys will be a success. I only use you guys as a measuring stick to show that we have similar numbers and if you can be successful, then so can we. We constantly have to defend ourselves from "but Canberra's a rugby town", so if we can show that Canberra has as many AFL fans as Hobart, maybe we can finally put that argument to bed.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Andy D ain’t as smart as he thinks he is. He says repeatedly that a 19th team does not any extra games, that you need a 20th team for extra games/TV revenue. Everyone else gets it, but not AD.

It is a massive furphy that footy is popular in NQ. Yes, all the Vic expats working up there in hospitality and tourism pack out their 10k stadium once a year and fill the local teams with players, but Caines is a small city that mainly follows RL. Townsville even more so.

And I love that people are worried that it is 200km from Hobart to Launceston but think it Ok that Darwin and Cairns are 2,000km apart. Eddie has said that it is not on for a Tasmanian teams to share home grounds two hours apart. Next breath he thinks a Darwin/Cain’s combo is a winner. A Top End team is a most rediculous concept and has no merit at all.

WA3 would always struggle. There would be very few footy fans there willing to change clubs. Just because WC are so strong does not mean a third team would be popular. They already have Freo who after 30 years are still not half as Popular. Do the WA3 fans dump their beloved WC, or decimate Freo? Not a good idea.

We don’t need a 20th team, but if we did, Canberra is the best and possibly only option.

The moment Andy said they were the only logical locations, I felt like this moment from Zoolander.

By all means, I agree with expanding the game in North Queensland, but test them with a few games a year before plonking a whole club there.

One of the benefits of Tasmania getting a team is that there's suddenly eight extra home games for Victorian teams. If North is still looking to sell games, Cairns could be a could transition from Hobart.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

The Canberra Capitals haven't disappeared at all, in fact they have won nine titles in the last 25 years and made the playoffs again this season. They too have been battling with the ACT Government about a new stadium, or at least upgrades to the current stadium. It was the Cannons that disappeared, they got into financial issues in the early 00's and their licence was shipped off to Newcastle and then Singapore IIRC.

Not entirely sure why the Comets were kicked out, I'm guessing it was primarily because the quality of local talent, but it took Tasmania decades to be competitive and 30 years to win title, yet we only three or four years. The Sheffield Shield needs to be expanded to seven teams and BBL and WBBL should also have a Canberra team, but then I think every National competition should have a team from the National Capital.

One of the problems the Raiders and Brumbies have had to deal with, and perhaps it may be an issue for an AFL team as well, is most people in the city already followed a team when they entered the competition, it's starting to change now as both teams have been around for a generation or two and it has been showing as the crowd averages were increasing before Covid. The Raiders were back up to around 15,000 in 2019 which is mid table amongst NRL averages that year.

Apologies I meant the Canberra Cannons (Although I heard last week there's talk of resurrecting them)

I'm pretty sure the Comets never played Sheffield Shield, they played in the one day comp only.

The Brumbies were in a brand new competition, they were the hottest ticket in town, blitzing the Raiders when it came to crowds, I even went to a couple of games with Navy mates. Shit game to watch, even worse being given a cold can of beer at 7pm and it's 1 degree. They and the super rugby comp even prior to COVID have fallen off a cliff in this country much like basketball did in the 90s.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Yes Australian rules has a strong following there and their local comp was quite good in the late 80s and 90s, but like everything else in Canberra, they get bored after a while and history tells us they will stop going. Look at the Raiders and the Brumbies in particular who have fallen off a cliff since their halcyon days of the late 90s / early 00s. The Canberra Capitals playing basketball disappeared altogether, the Canberra Comets for cricket were short lived, how about the NSW / ACT Rams in the TAC U/18 Cup? I remember watching a game in Queanbeyan against the Dandenong Stingrays with Fevola playing it, he destroyed them.

The Raiders are doing just fine.

Rugby union in general has fallen off a cliff since their halcyon days. The Brumbies are no different to the Reds or Waratahs. Similarly, many NBL teams folded, including the Sydney Kings and Brisbane Bullets, but those markets were simply too big to not have a presence in, so they were resurrected, but Canberra weren't. (EDIT: I realise now that you acknowledged this in a later post)

Nobody cares about state cricket (distinct from the BBL) or the U18s outside of the truly obsessed. How many people are in the crowd at games in those comps?

Basically, these are all bad examples and irrelevant to whether a Canberra team will be supported.

 

[Bjo187]

It's weird nobody in the media is pushing Canberra either. I'd say people need to message in or call in to the likes of sen to put it on the agenda any time team 20 is being suggested, as I agree with others, the suggestion of the other 3 options is absurd. For 30 years apparently Tasmania couldn't have a team because the population was too small, now they are pushing a team from a location with less than half the population of tassie, crazy.

 

[Walshawk]

The moment Andy said they were the only logical locations, I felt like this moment from Zoolander.

By all means, I agree with expanding the game in North Queensland, but test them with a few games a year before plonking a whole club there.

One of the benefits of Tasmania getting a team is that there's suddenly eight extra home games for Victorian teams. If North is still looking to sell games, Cairns could be a could transition from Hobart.

Once Tassie get the nod, I would rebrand Giants as Western Sydney. Nobody lives in 'GWS' (it is not a place), but two million people are from 'Western Sydney'. 'GWS' is simply not a term anyone in WS uses, so everytime GWS is mentioned in the media, they are missing an opportunity to promote the fact that Western Sydney actually has an AFL team. The can announce it at the press conference when they appoint Clarko.
9 Games @ Showgrounds, Swans game @ ANZ, and a game in Newcastle when SHowgrounds is out of action around Easter. Maybe on in the 'Gong.
Hawks and Saints to play two games each in Canberra, North play two in Albury, maybe Wagga. If that all went well, I would bring in a Canberra team five years after Tassie. Eight games at a 20K Manuka, two in Albury and one in Wagga.
That covers all the major population centres, and there can be one off games in Cairns, Townsville, Darwin, Alice, etc.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Once Tassie get the nod, I would rebrand Giants as Western Sydney. Nobody lives in 'GWS' (it is not a place), but two million people are from 'Western Sydney'. 'GWS' is simply not a term anyone in WS uses, so everytime GWS is mentioned in the media, they are missing an opportunity to promote the fact that Western Sydney actually has an AFL team. The can announce it at the press conference when they appoint Clarko.
9 Games @ Showgrounds, Swans game @ ANZ, and a game in Newcastle when SHowgrounds is out of action around Easter. Maybe on in the 'Gong.
Hawks and Saints to play two games each in Canberra, North play two in Albury, maybe Wagga. If that all went well, I would bring in a Canberra team five years after Tassie. Eight games at a 20K Manuka, two in Albury and one in Wagga.
That covers all the major population centres, and there can be one off games in Cairns, Townsville, Darwin, Alice, etc.

It's like you're in my brain.

My other dream for the Giants is to have a marquee game against a big team at ANZ / Accor during the Easter Show. Every day the show has 90k people just 100m away. If they played it at 3 or 4pm, they could make a deal with the show for cheap tickets to capture a bunch of these patrons on their way out. Show for the kids, footy for the parents. Advertise the heck out of it, free Toby Greene bobbleheads for the first 10k through the gates.

 

[Sinnthesis]

Once Tassie get the nod, I would rebrand Giants as Western Sydney. Nobody lives in 'GWS' (it is not a place), but two million people are from 'Western Sydney'. 'GWS' is simply not a term anyone in WS uses

I suggested this on the Giants board and the response was not very pleasant. Might not be a popular move

 

[HBFlanker]

Interesting that Canberra is firmly back on the NBLs agenda for expansion. They are flying as a league too.

There will be a professional soccer team there in the short term too, especially if a second division is implemented.

This could mean there will be a professional presence in the following mens and womens sports:

Rugby Union
Rugby League
Mens Basketball
Womens Basketball
Mens Soccer
Womens Soccer

AFL may have genuinely missed the boat.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Effectively repeating what Cubs2Lions said about GWS, but there are other options out there. Newcastle has just upgraded its stadium specifically for AFL dimensions. I'm sure they'd be keen to show it wasn't in vain and have some games there.

GWS has also been keen on a USA game, which will be hard while they're still in Canberra, as they've only got so many games they can take away from their Western Sydney fans.

The GWS-Canberra relationship isn't that valuable. It's $2.3 million a year. A bunch is that is earmarked for local player development, so it ends up being about $400k per AFL men's game. Compared to $1m or so per men's game North and Hawthorn are getting. GWS also has wealthy backers. They've paid $2.4m just for the naming rights of the home ground.

But long-term, I don't think GWS can afford NOT to leave Canberra. They're not endearing as many Western Sydney fans as they could with one toe in Canberra. They receive a lot of flack for it. GWS won't be big until they leave Canberra and fully embrace Sydney.

With the amount of money they leak GWS need every cent they can get
GWS have very little appeal here let alone taking a game to the US

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Interesting that Canberra is firmly back on the NBLs agenda for expansion. They are flying as a league too.

There will be a professional soccer team there in the short term too, especially if a second division is implemented.

This could mean there will be a professional presence in the following mens and womens sports:

Rugby Union
Rugby League
Mens Basketball
Womens Basketball
Mens Soccer
Womens Soccer

AFL may have genuinely missed the boat.

They also have a professional sporting team in baseball & ice/field hockey for both genders, as well as being the main home for olympic-based athletes in Australia (throughout the year) in the sports of athletics, swimming & etc with the Australian Institute of Sport in Bruce.

Regardless though, it still amazes me how Canberra/ACT doesn't have representation in the AFL competitions though yet, with the only negative I could possibly think of being the lack of a suitable-sized stadium for a team to play on during a full-time basis.

But surely if the AFL were interested of giving that 20th spot to them and the stadium deal is the only issue, they would start proposing deals with the ACT government soon, in regards to either upgrading Manuka Oval or creating a new AFL-based stadium in the Canberra Civic (before deals get done with Raiders/Brumbies regarding a new rectangular stadium deal for them).

 

[Aussie in exile]

Interesting that Canberra is firmly back on the NBLs agenda for expansion. They are flying as a league too.

There will be a professional soccer team there in the short term too, especially if a second division is implemented.

This could mean there will be a professional presence in the following mens and womens sports:

Rugby Union
Rugby League
Mens Basketball
Womens Basketball
Mens Soccer
Womens Soccer

AFL may have genuinely missed the boat.

They also have a professional sporting team in baseball & ice/field hockey for both genders, as well as being the main home for olympic-based athletes in Australia (throughout the year) in the sports of athletics, swimming & etc with the Australian Institute of Sport in Bruce.

Regardless though, it still amazes me how Canberra/ACT doesn't have representation in the AFL competitions though yet, with the only negative I could possibly think of being the lack of a suitable-sized stadium for a team to play on during a full-time basis.

But surely if the AFL were interested of giving that 20th spot to them and the stadium deal is the only issue, they would start proposing deals with the ACT government soon, in regards to either upgrading Manuka Oval or creating a new AFL-based stadium in the Canberra Civic (before deals get done with Raiders/Brumbies regarding a new rectangular stadium deal for them).

If does seem that the Canberra sporting market is full and IF the AFL has any plans to have a club there it will have to pay out its own pocket for a Manuka Oval upgrade or a new AFL based stadium

 

[Bjo187]

Once Tassie get the nod, I would rebrand Giants as Western Sydney. Nobody lives in 'GWS' (it is not a place), but two million people are from 'Western Sydney'. 'GWS' is simply not a term anyone in WS uses, so everytime GWS is mentioned in the media, they are missing an opportunity to promote the fact that Western Sydney actually has an AFL team. The can announce it at the press conference when they appoint Clarko.
9 Games @ Showgrounds, Swans game @ ANZ, and a game in Newcastle when SHowgrounds is out of action around Easter. Maybe on in the 'Gong.
Hawks and Saints to play two games each in Canberra, North play two in Albury, maybe Wagga. If that all went well, I would bring in a Canberra team five years after Tassie. Eight games at a 20K Manuka, two in Albury and one in Wagga.
That covers all the major population centres, and there can be one off games in Cairns, Townsville, Darwin, Alice, etc.

Agree with everything you say.

Dale Holmes explains the reason for the gws name in the 'here come the giants' podcast, a great listen. A few things from that:

• they made it gws because councils and groups they spoke to in the 'greater' area told them fans wouldn't adopt the team if it were only named western sydney. So they didn't wanna exclude the possibility of fans in those areas like Campbelltown etc adopting them as their club.
• they knew it was a mouthful but wanted gws for the first 10 years or so then planned to drop a word from the team name
• they aren't allowed to be called 'Sydney' as per an agreement with the swans
• so I agree it sounds much better as either western sydney or simply greater sydney if they want to also pull fans from the more AFL friendly areas like north sydney as supporters, as the team doesn't really seem to be resonating in western sydney itself.

 

[GeTrain]

Once Tassie get the nod, I would rebrand Giants as Western Sydney. Nobody lives in 'GWS' (it is not a place), but two million people are from 'Western Sydney'. 'GWS' is simply not a term anyone in WS uses, so everytime GWS is mentioned in the media, they are missing an opportunity to promote the fact that Western Sydney actually has an AFL team. The can announce it at the press conference when they appoint Clarko.
9 Games @ Showgrounds, Swans game @ ANZ, and a game in Newcastle when SHowgrounds is out of action around Easter. Maybe on in the 'Gong.
Hawks and Saints to play two games each in Canberra, North play two in Albury, maybe Wagga. If that all went well, I would bring in a Canberra team five years after Tassie. Eight games at a 20K Manuka, two in Albury and one in Wagga.
That covers all the major population centres, and there can be one off games in Cairns, Townsville, Darwin, Alice, etc.

We've seemingly got something going on in North Queensland so 2 games in Canberra probably wouldn't work unless we abandon that. Maybe we play 1 home game in Canberra and then play the Hawks in one of their home games in Canberra.

 

[Canberra Pear]

If does seem that the Canberra sporting market is full and IF the AFL has any plans to have a club there it will have to pay out its own pocket for a Manuka Oval upgrade or a new AFL based stadium

I wouldn't really say the Canberra market if full. Of that list by HBFlanker, only the NRL runs parallel to the AFL. The rest are summer seasons with the exception the Brumbies, whose regular season is over by June.

Darwin isn't full, but there's a reason for that. They're tiny. No national league has considered them a viable city, but somehow the league with the largest running costs is supposed to thrive there?

Yes, we have an NRL team already, but AFL is incredibly popular here, too. Some metrics show it's even more popular. We're triple the size of Darwin. Even if only half of Canberra followed AFL to the levels of the NT (which is being conservative), we would still have a 58% bigger supporter base to attend games.

But the beauty of Canberra is it's a multi-code city with public servants who have nothing but time and money. The Raiders are only in town once a fortnight, there's nothing stopping NRL fans supporting and going to an AFL game when the Raiders are out of town. I've taken a few rugby league fans myself to Giants games.

I agree that the stadium will be the biggest hurdle. I don't have the answer for that. There are options, I just hope the AFL have their finger on the pulse with infrastructure decisions being made. In a dream scenario, the BBL will expand to Canberra at the same time to help justify an upgrade.

 

[Canberra Pear]

It's weird nobody in the media is pushing Canberra either. I'd say people need to message in or call in to the likes of sen to put it on the agenda any time team 20 is being suggested, as I agree with others, the suggestion of the other 3 options is absurd. For 30 years apparently Tasmania couldn't have a team because the population was too small, now they are pushing a team from a location with less than half the population of tassie, crazy.

I'm doing a bit to try an create momentum, but it's a slog.

I created a Twitter account called @CanberraAFLTeam with the intention of replicating the support Tasmania gained from their grassroots campaign. It's growing slowly. I recently started a complementary Facebook page because that's where more people are, but that's still in its infancy.

I wrote an article for The Roar back in the day, and I'm working on another based on the data I just posted. I've also been in contact with a player agent and I'm trying to get an interview with some Canberran players to see if they'd be publicly supportive.

 

[Bjo187]

I'm doing a bit to try an create momentum, but it's a slog.

I created a Twitter account called @CanberraAFLTeam with the intention of replicating the support Tasmania gained from their grassroots campaign. It's growing slowly. I recently started a complementary Facebook page because that's where more people are, but that's still in its infancy.

I wrote an article for The Roar back in the day, and I'm working on another based on the data I just posted. I've also been in contact with a player agent and I'm trying to get an interview with some Canberran players to see if they'd be publicly supportive.

Good effort, I think you definitely need to get on the radio to jump start it too though, I would call in myself but I only listen hours later on podcasts unfortunately. Sen in the mornings has Gary Lyon and then Whateley, guys that if you get through to them they have secondary opinions across a number of different football platforms during the week.

I also like the interview with a player and getting them on board, Jack steele is probably the highest profile player from Canberra off the top of my head. You wouldn't have much success with the gws guys as they'd basically be working against their own clubs wishes by advocating for a Canberra side.

 

[Pippen94]

Move giANTS to Canberra fulltime. Simples.

 

[Pippen94]

I'm doing a bit to try an create momentum, but it's a slog.

I created a Twitter account called @CanberraAFLTeam with the intention of replicating the support Tasmania gained from their grassroots campaign. It's growing slowly. I recently started a complementary Facebook page because that's where more people are, but that's still in its infancy.

I wrote an article for The Roar back in the day, and I'm working on another based on the data I just posted. I've also been in contact with a player agent and I'm trying to get an interview with some Canberran players to see if they'd be publicly supportive.

What ur doing is definition of astroturfing

 

[Canberra Pear]

Good effort, I think you definitely need to get on the radio to jump start it too though, I would call in myself but I only listen hours later on podcasts unfortunately. Sen in the mornings has Gary Lyon and then Whateley, guys that if you get through to them they have secondary opinions across a number of different football platforms during the week.

I also like the interview with a player and getting them on board, Jack steele is probably the highest profile player from Canberra off the top of my head. You wouldn't have much success with the gws guys as they'd basically be working against their own clubs wishes by advocating for a Canberra side.

Cheers. I'm much more of a writer than a speaker, so I'm not a big fan of putting myself in public, but it looks like I might have to.

The same agent represents Steele, Tom Highmore and Jackson Hately, so fingers crossed. I had the same thought about the GWS players. Even if Phil Davis and Tom Green were keen, they probably couldn't say so. Even former Canberran James Hird can't say much now he's employed by GWS. Josh Bruce would be the other big Canberran player.

I've been trying to get in contact with Mick Molloy as he's initially from Canberra, but no luck yet.

 

[Walshawk]

Civic is not big enough for an oval stadium. Barely big enough for a 20k - 25k rectangle.
And don’t think Darwin is 95% AFL like Melbourne or Adelaide. Plenty of NRL fans there.

 

[The_JHF_Clinic]

More the other way around. The ACT is only 90% of Canberra's population.

But I don't bring up Hobart to disparage a Tassie bid. I think and hope you guys will be a success. I only use you guys as a measuring stick to show that we have similar numbers and if you can be successful, then so can we. We constantly have to defend ourselves from "but Canberra's a rugby town", so if we can show that Canberra has as many AFL fans as Hobart, maybe we can finally put that argument to bed.

The thing is that you don’t have similar numbers. The Tassie gov is applying for a state-based licence, not a Hobart licence. Tassie also has the most decentralised population in the country so using your metrics, when the whole state is included, it has more than double the amount of AFL fans that Canberra has. It is also a state where AFL is king so it doesn’t have rugby league and union teams to compete against for support during winter.

I have seen how much opposition Tassie has faced over the past 30 years in our quest for a licence and we’re still no certainty to receive one this year even with bipartisan political support. I genuinely believe that Canberra is the best option for team 20, but there doesn’t seem to be much action at a gov level when compared with the NT’s proposal.

A combined ACT, Albury-Wodonga, Riverina bid would possibly alleviate the issues I raised in my first paragraph so IMO I think that needs to become a fundamental basis of the proposal moving forward. A team representing those regions makes a heap more sense in regards to population, economics, location, climate, footy culture etc than a combined NT-NQ team. I always thought that Canberra-Murray Rams or Tridents (due to repping ACT/NSW/Vic) could be decent options for a team name.


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[Canberra Pear]

Civic is not big enough for an oval stadium. Barely big enough for a 20k - 25k rectangle.
And don’t think Darwin is 95% AFL like Melbourne or Adelaide. Plenty of NRL fans there.

I haven't been to Darwin, but that's what I thought, too. The crowds they get for the one-off NRL matches are pretty close to those of the AFL. Darwin probably has a closer ratio to Canberra than Adelaide.

It would've been cool if an oval could be included. Especially with the suggestion that it might be roofed. But there's very little chance in Civic. Our only chance is if they ended up choosing EPIC, and given the restraints, they might have too. It would be silly if they got a new stadium and they had to shrink the capacity.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The thing is that you don’t have similar numbers. The Tassie gov is applying for a state-based licence, not a Hobart licence. Tassie also has the most decentralised population in the country so using your metrics, when the whole state is included, it has more than double the amount of AFL fans that Canberra has. It is also a state where AFL is king so it doesn’t have rugby league and union teams to compete against for support during winter.

I have seen how much opposition Tassie has faced over the past 30 years in our quest for a licence and we’re still no certainty to receive one this year even with bipartisan political support. I genuinely believe that Canberra is the best option for team 20, but there doesn’t seem to be much action at a gov level when compared with the NT’s proposal.

A combined ACT, Albury-Wodonga, Riverina bid would possibly alleviate the issues I raised in my first paragraph so IMO I think that needs to become a fundamental basis of the proposal moving forward. A team representing those regions makes a heap more sense in regards to population, economics, location, climate, footy culture etc than a combined NT-NQ team. I always thought that Canberra-Murray Rams or Tridents (due to repping ACT/NSW/Vic) could be decent options for a team name.


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I agree with incorporating the Riverina-Murray. Huge Aussie Rules heartland with a population itself the size of the NT.

One of the reasons I like the names Griffins is that Walter Burley and Marion Griffin did a bunch of work there, too. They designed Canberra, but also Griffith and a bit of infrastructure in the towns there. Plus a Griffin is a bad-ass mascot.

I'd still maintain they should he called Canberra though. The Brumbies removed their ACT name and they lost a bit of identity. The Raiders manage to the Wagga's team while still being called Canberra.