Leedawsom
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The P109 will get what he is given so therefore the P1BL005 will have to cover the best they can. It's a mistake but one they have to get on with.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Carlton Minus Fevola
- Thread starter Lazyboy
- Start date
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Scotland does not play in our midfield these days & realistically hasn't for the last 2-3 seasons (a poor start to the season could see him not even in our best 22).
Simpson is a wingman, who is not strong enough for the contested nature of the midfield (mind you he is a handy wingman to have, with good pace & recently very handy around the goals).
Carrazzo is a player I have a lot of time for, but he is a good player & will never be anything more than a good player (teams still need players like him). He is one of our best lock-down players at the club & with the addition of McLean & to a lesser extent Lucas (who will be given time to develop as a HFF/midfielder) will be able to perform this role on a more regular basis.
Houlihan's 25 disposals were accumulated playing between HB & HF. He is a linkman & nothing more & is another player, like Scotland, who may well struggle to be in our best 22 by the end of this season.
You can see that our midfield does fall away a bit after Judd & Murphy, with Gibbs hopefully not far off putting together good games most weeks (we sometimes forget he has yet to turn 21).
The thing that nobody is able to adequately demonstrate is which KPPs we should have drafted given the picks we had in the 2009 draft, when you are picking best available, particularly with your earlier picks. Most of the KPPs taken later in the draft were speculative picks & we did only use 3 picks in the ND.
- May 29, 2009
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- 14,883
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- LA Lakers
Why bring them into the topic then?
They put your team out of the finals race
They were two set sources of goals. Who in the Carlton team now will match the output of Hall and O'Loughlin combined from 2003 onwards?
What are you talking about? When Plugger really retired (1999) Micky O was an Eddie Betts equivalent goal wise and BBBH was a Saint.
No surprises the year after Plugger left, Micky O kicked 50+ goals for the first time in his career. When BBBH arrived at Sydney he'd kicked 40+ goals only twice in his career (41 & 44). Only after his arrival did he move into the 50+ goal bracket of player.
This hardly represents a 'set source of goals' at the time of Pluggers retirement.
If we are to crystal ball it on past form you could pluck a Waite (36 goals), Fisher (39 goals) or Betts (38 goals) as having the potential to step it up like those two did post-Lockett. Other potential candidates for the future would include Henderson and Yarran.
It's just not as outright bleak as many of you hope it is.
Gee, talk about using misleading numbers
In 2009:
Fisher - 8 goals/7 games
Waite - 10 goals/9 games
Waite is no doubt a good option, but where will he play? Fisher... Really? And I see Betts as a crumber, rather than a genuine forward target.
His figures were misleading, but so are yours.
1 - Waite kicked bags of 3 from CHF in his last 2 games before injury. He only played 3 games in the forward line, and then only in patches throughout the match. 10 goals is pretty good result from 3 games wouldn't you say?
2 - Fisher was good in 2007. However, post-2007 he turned into a steaming pile of excrement. I can't see him getting a game
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Losing Fev will hurt no doubt, but i wouldn't be suprised to see our total PF tally remain similar due to
1) our young list getting another year into the belt
2) other forwards having the ball actually kicked to them for once. Fev had something like 60% of I50's directed towards him!
Our defence will also be a lot better due to Jamo and maybe Waite at CHB. Plus overall defensive improvement across the ground. This will help increase our % and lessen the blow dealt through losing Fev.
But realistically, you would expect our attacking game to be distrupted. No one can tell how much atm however.
Waite is a very good option, having kicked 5 goals on the 2 occasions he played at FF (both times in the absence of Fev).
Henderson only needs to kick 40-50 goals for Carlton to have a good year & this is not beyond the realms of possibility given someone like Anthony wasn't even playing as a forward a couple of years ago & yet kicked 50 goals in 2009 to lead Collingwood's goalkicking. The quality of ball going into the Carlton forward line should make sure that the forwards get plenty of shots on goal.
I said Waite was a good option. Also queried where he would be playing, which covered the whole CHB thing
Also see my post a while back about being Fev centric. In summary:
Carlton didn't have to kick to Fev all the time, but Ratten obviously saw it as his best option.
Clubs were aware of Carlton being Fev centric, and put large amount of effort into stopping him, thus lifting pressure on other forwards. Other players will have the ball kicked to them more now, but will also have a proper opponent concentrating on them.
Your forward options are rubbish. Besides Betts, who is a crumber, your other goal kickers were mainly midfielders.
- May 29, 2009
- 29,823
- 14,883
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- LA Lakers
Yes, Fisher has been affected by his injuries and may well not be the answer; however in the two years prior to 2009 he did kick 25 & 39 goals in a Fev focused forward line. Am I to just ignore those tallies because people want to claim there are no possible options available to Carlton in all the universe?
Waite did his knee in 2009, yet kicked those 10 goals despite barely playing forward. He has also kicked 36 goals in a Fev-centric forward line in the past as a much less developed player. And has bags of 5 in Fev's absence.
Betts is not a main target sure, but if you watch Carlton games you will see he is a target of sorts. He was second to Fevola in having the ball directed to him in 2009 such is the truth to what I'm saying. Despite all that, the boy kicks goals and creates goals and is absolutely comparable to Mickey O at beginning of Sydney's post-Lockett era.
Someone asked about who could potentially stand up and I answered based on relative comparison of actual results, which if looking outside our own heads, is all we really have to go on.
MSR made reference to the time leading up to the 05 Grand Final thus I used that time frame.
Paddywhackers
Cancelled
Carlton in the nineties, late nineties were a football side full of players I had respect for. There were not any players that I disliked. However, this decade, they had Fevola, easily the most player I most disliked, and clearly I was not alone.
How will they go without Fevola? They won't be as good but they'll be alot more likeable. However they will remain despised and that is so for various reasons.
How will they go without Fevola? They won't be as good but they'll be alot more likeable. However they will remain despised and that is so for various reasons.
I would have thought Waite would need to be pushed up forward, as he may very well be your leading goal kicker in 2010.
Let's hope his dodgey knee doesn't set him back, or his age. If he doesn't regain his composure this year, regaining it when he's 28+ won't be so good for the near future of the CFCn terms of the forward line.
What do you think?
we all know Carltons forward line is screwed without Fev, they are going to need their midfeilders to kick a higher percentage of the goals, like West Coast from 04-07
What you don't seem realize is that Lloyd has been inconsistent for a while now, and there's no doubt some of it had to do with him messing up his hamstring back in 2006.Yawn
We got Henderson and Lucas for Fevola.
Essendon lost Lloyd, Lucas and McPhee for nothing. Their ideal replacements have a lot of trouble getting on the field. Not bagging the Bombers, it's just how it is.
Ever since then, his goal kicking consistency has been decreasing as he was getting older and older, until it eventually took a toll on his career at the dawn of his retirement. He obviously never really got back to his best. Thus the team then had to take the liberty in spreading the goal scoring abilities all over the forward line preemptively, in order to keep making some sort of impact after Lloyd's imminent departure.
We had time to get used to the idea of Lloyd not being at FF anymore, it's not as if it happened out of no where; (ala Fevola). Particularly in 2009, where he only managed to kick 35 goals in total. Most of our goals during last year's big games came from a spread of players who will make an even bigger stand next year, we haven't been reliant on him for a while now. And yet we were still able to improve on the season prior. The man was a champion at the club and many will recognize this for years to come, but it was clear his time was up.
The situation with the Blues is almost completely different here. Fevola has arguably reached the peak of his career, booting 99 goals in 2008 and another 89 in 2009 to claim his title as the reigning Coleman medalist. There was no reason for Carlton to grow any less reliant on him than they have been for a long time now. He was your main forward... you were not used to the idea of him "suddenly" leaving the club, why would you be? He was and is still young, hasn't had a game ending injury in years now and shows no signs of slowing down. After all, its not as if Carlton were in a rush to draft key position forwards (ala Essendon) as it was the mids that you needed, to ultimately supply your power forward with the ball in the long run.
You claim that the Bombers were unable to gain anything for Lloyd, this is because we didn't need to. Why would we? We've already set our our sights on Gumbleton, Neagle, Still, Carlisle and Hurley as young prospects up forward for a while now and the maturity/experience in Davey, Monfries, Hille and Williams to lead them. With Ryder in there somewhere.
In my opinion, Essendon's handling of Lloyd's departure has been more of a "transition" for it's forward line than Carlton's sudden break stop regarding Fevola. Based on this, I expect the Bombers to fair better when it comes to kicking goals and adapting to a working gameplan in 2010 compared to the Blues.
What I don't understand, is Carlton supporters hyping up their 'steak knives' acquisition of Henderson while at the same time disregarding the prospect of Gumbleton's ability to become dangerous in the near future.
Henderson has kicked the same amount of career goals as Gumbleton, this amount being 3. However, it took 15 games for Hendo to do it and 5 for Gumby. Half of Hendo's games have occurred during the 2009 season, a season in which he has kicked no goals whatsoever. When it comes to up forward, Gumbleton has made more of an early impact with less games overall. Highly regarded as a natural CHF, I don't see why anyone would harp on about Henderson and give Gumby the flick. They're no different in terms of what they've shown. I see Hendo making more of a difference in CHB, a position in which he has played most of his football, than CHF however... but that's just me I guess.
As for Lucas, his impact up forward since 2007 has minimized more so than Lloyd's. Kicking 18 goals in 2008, and 22 in 2009, it was quite obvious that being 32 wasn't helping him nor was it an indication that he was going to get any better or back to his best. As with Lloyd, Essendon have had enough time to look at other options and not rely too heavily on him in terms of winning games and moving forward.
McPhee was a good player, but will not get any better - will not make a difference in our gameplan come 2010. If there's anyone that was vital to our true aspirations, it was Lovett's speed, but he was never going to clean up his act off the field and thus Essendon have actually gained something in regards to him leaving as far as our long term future is concerned. Travis Colyer's speed will bode well to replace his impact on the field.
As I said before in this thread (as you well know Sin City) I don't know how the Blues forward line will fair in 2010. However, I think I've made it pretty clear why I think Essendon will be better off in comparison. In fact, because of this "take one step back and two steps forward" analogy that Carlton now have to take, I see the Bombers developing faster in the near future, (something I would not have assumed before Fev's shake up in 2009). Of course, we'll wait and see.
[FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Oh gee, who knows... maybe it had something to do with our 1000 day ownership of Carlton?Why bring them into the topic then?
Just as Pears made Fev his bitch (basically causing him to become invisible) - I see our backline having field day on Henderson.
Let's be honest here, you have a horrible record against us and until you change that, you have to take it on the nose and bare it. Not bagging the Blues, it's just how it is.[/FONT]
quirky_clayboy
Rookie
- Aug 16, 2009
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Yes it took 15 games for Henderson to kick 3... because he played down back. Henderson has played most of his AFL career at CHB, but most of his football has been at CHF - a position he has stated as his preferred.
It is complete speculation as to which will be the better forward. However, Gumbleton must first prove his body can even take the rigours of football before we start talking about how good he is going to be.
You should learn to read entire posts a little more carefully. Then you may understand the true point of them thereafter.
Out of a total of 15 games, Hendo has played half of these in season 2009, a season in which he has kicked no goals whatsoever. Of course this is due to him playing at CHB, a position in which has suited him more and more over time, for example - keeping Roughead to just one goal and setting up three. His standout game of recent has been in this very position.
As far as CHF goes, Gumbleton has done just as much and is naturally suited (and groomed) to the position in comparison to Henderson.
I'm not speculating on who the better forward is, no where have I made such a thing clear. But as far as Henderson's future goes, it is just as much of an unknown as is Gumbleton's. To hype Hendo and disregard Gumby (as some Carlton supporters have done in this thread) is silly and this was my point in regards to that paragraph, to put it bluntly.
My overall opinion, however, had more to do with the differences in Lloyd leaving Essendon and Fev leaving the Blues.
quirky_clayboy
Rookie
- Aug 16, 2009
- 29
- 44
- AFL Club
- Carlton
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Henderson played CHB out of necessity, or because there was no room for him up forward. I don't see how this makes the position more suited to him. He is a CHF that was played out of position.
My second paragraph was not directly responding to your post - just my opinion on the two players.
You don't fluke premierships.
Hawthorn were the only side to beat every team that year and only lost games in the middle of the season when injury struck several midfielders simultaneously.
So by your logic the difference between Hawthorn winning and losing in 2008 was when they were missing members of their midfield and not whether or not they were playing two of the top KPF of the year.
But when Carlton remove their best forward and strengthen their midfield they should be worse?
Fact of the matter is the game has moved past KPP to more utility based players. To put it simply it's akin to the transition of soccer to what the dutch called total football. Having a structure of a tall forward in the goal square and one 50m line died in the 90s. Today's football is about large midfield divisions that can out run their opponents down and mainly control the tempo of the game. Slow it down when the opposition are winning the contested ball and go flat out when its your turn. But if you don't believe me just look at the numbers.
Interchanges have increased exponentially. Of players drafted which position of which they play dominates and of those that are indicated as forward or backman how many of those also say that they play a bit in the midfield? Also it is wrong of people to say that the Brownlow is a midfielders medal, it is not, it is a midfielders game and the Brownlow just reflects that.
Yawn
We got Henderson and Lucas for Fevola.
Essendon lost Lloyd, Lucas and McPhee for nothing. Their ideal replacements have a lot of trouble getting on the field. Not bagging the Bombers, it's just how it is.
And don't forget the Bombers will also be minus Lovett had absolutely relished playing against the Blues and cut us to pieces nearly every timed he played.
absfab
Premiership Player
- Mar 8, 2009
- 3,128
- 83
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Missing the point, much?
Fisher is just an ordinary player. Yet has put together a respectable tally in a full season while taking hind T**ty behind Fev. Truth is we don't know what any of the talls who have been in and out of the Carlton forward line in recent years have got, because they have not been given normal opportunity.
Lets look at some other teams and work out where the game is won and lost.
- Hawthorn. Most dangerous forward line in the League on paper. Didn't help much in 2009 and not the reason they won in 2008.
- Bulldogs. So bereft of quality forwards they gambled on BBBH (who IMO will not take them the next step). But still the third best side in 2009.
- St Kilda. Best tall forward in the League IMO - second efforts and work rate make him worth two men. And has a dangerous second option running around beside him. But not enough to make the difference against....
- Geelong. Key forward power? Nope. Take those two goats and put them in a bottom 8 team and that team likely just got worse, not better.
VainGlorious
Unaccommodating
Dont qoute me on this,
but im pretty sure both murph and gibbsy finished top 10 last year in the brownlow.Not bad for ok players that are nowhere near their peak yet
OMFG Lions2010,
Our backline would match yours our midfield is alot better than yours(bribanes midfield really really slow). In about 5 years Brisbane will start to fall. I cant see them wining a GF during this time either.
5 years time.
Black - 36years (retired)
Power - 35years (retired)
Fevola - 34years (retired/1years)
Brown - 33years (1-2years)
Charman - 32years (retired)
Drummond - 31years (1-2years)
McGrath - 31years (1-2years)
p.s. heaps more players will be around 30-31 sooo.. yer Bribane on the down fall, 5 years time
Our backline would match yours our midfield is alot better than yours(bribanes midfield really really slow). In about 5 years Brisbane will start to fall. I cant see them wining a GF during this time either.
5 years time.
Black - 36years (retired)
Power - 35years (retired)
Fevola - 34years (retired/1years)
Brown - 33years (1-2years)
Charman - 32years (retired)
Drummond - 31years (1-2years)
McGrath - 31years (1-2years)
p.s. heaps more players will be around 30-31 sooo.. yer Bribane on the down fall, 5 years time
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