Caroline Wilson

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Mr Reliable said:
Can't you name one person out of the many hundreds of eligible legends?
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I told you Im not going to do any investigation.

I notice you conveniently dismissed the Collingwood Team of the Century argument and the criteria of selecting people to the legend status but it is absolutely relevant here.

On the criteria argument - why dont we forget the brownlow criteria and go back and award Corey McKernan and Chris Grant a brownlow medal. Maybe McKernan should ask for his rising star award. How can you disregard a selection 'criteria', its the rules of that awarding the honour?

And on the Collingwood team of the century argument - fair enough if he had a pretty good coaching record to throw into the mix with his above average playing record and long commentating record, maybe an administrative component to chuck in instead of the coaching record, but he had none of this. So he was a commentator and personality of the game for a long period and an above average player but not good enough to score a possie in collingwoods TOC (1 of 18 teams that competed in vfl/afl and thats not including all the senior clubs that make up the top level competitions in each of the states leagues). Is that enough?

What next, people calling for Rex Hunt's inclusion. Sam Newman?

Out of all the people in football there have been 22 legends named (I heard this number on the radio but not sure). 22 out of the millions of people involved over the past 150 years. Surely Richards cant join that elite list.

Barassi, Coleman, Bunton Snr, Cazaly, Louie the lip....sounds a little out of whack. Legend status would be worthless if they were going to throw it around like that.
 
Urmoe said:
I told you Im not going to do any investigation.

I notice you conveniently dismissed the Collingwood Team of the Century argument and the criteria of selecting people to the legend status but it is absolutely relevant here.

On the criteria argument - why dont we forget the brownlow criteria and go back and award Corey McKernan and Chris Grant a brownlow medal. Maybe McKernan should ask for his rising star award. How can you disregard a selection 'criteria', its the rules of that awarding the honour?

And on the Collingwood team of the century argument - fair enough if he had a pretty good coaching record to throw into the mix with his above average playing record and long commentating record, maybe an administrative component to chuck in instead of the coaching record, but he had none of this. So he was a commentator and personality of the game for a long period and an above average player but not good enough to score a possie in collingwoods TOC (1 of 18 teams that competed in vfl/afl and thats not including all the senior clubs that make up the top level competitions in each of the states leagues). Is that enough?

What next, people calling for Rex Hunt's inclusion. Sam Newman?

Out of all the people in football there have been 22 legends named (I heard this number on the radio but not sure). 22 out of the millions of people involved over the past 150 years. Surely Richards cant join that elite list.

Barassi, Coleman, Bunton Snr, Cazaly, Louie the lip....sounds a little out of whack. Legend status would be worthless if they were going to throw it around like that.
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I didn't ask you to investigate. I asked you to name one potential legend from the hundreds you claim are out there, just one. I notice you had no problem throwing up ridiculous names like Rex Hunt and Sam Newman. How about just one of your budding legends, off the top?

It's about legends of football not ruls and regulations. The original criteria excluded Jock McHale so they changed them to get coaches in. Things can be changed you know. You don't have to follow the rules as they were originally written when you're running the show like the AFL Commission.

I also like the way you dismiss Lou as an "average player". You saw him play did you? Just because someone doesn't make his club's team of the century doesn't necessarily make him an ordinary player. Otherwise it would be "here are the greatest 22 or 25 players of all time at our club, and all the rest were average players."

And admitting someone who many, if not most, people including the PM and the premier of Victoria, think is a legend is hardly "throwing it around."

Still, if you want to stick with Jeff Kennett, Caro and KB and play by the rules when it suits, that's fine.;)
 

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Mr Reliable said:
I didn't ask you to investigate. I asked you to name one potential legend from the hundreds you claim are out there, just one. I notice you had no problem throwing up ridiculous names like Rex Hunt and Sam Newman. How about just one of your budding legends, off the top?

It's about legends of football not ruls and regulations. The original criteria excluded Jock McHale so they changed them to get coaches in. Things can be changed you know. You don't have to follow the rules as they were originally written when you're running the show like the AFL Commission.

I also like the way you dismiss Lou as an "average player". You saw him play did you? Just because someone doesn't make his club's team of the century doesn't necessarily make him an ordinary player. Otherwise it would be "here are the greatest 22 or 25 players of all time at our club, and all the rest were average players."

And admitting someone who many, if not most, people including the PM and the premier of Victoria, think is a legend is hardly "throwing it around."

Still, if you want to stick with Jeff Kennett, Caro and KB and play by the rules when it suits, that's fine.;)
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"The classification of 'Legend' will be applied to honour those players and coaches who have had the most significant impact on the game of Australian Football and caused the game to change significantly for the better. Legends should be players and coaches who immediately come to mind when players and coaches at the very pinnacle are discussed."



- So how do you want to change this criteria?

- You think Rudd and the collingwood supporting premier know more about football legends than KB, Caro and Kennett? I hate these 3 blokes to bits, but really you need to concede that a reference from Rudd and Brumby is something that can be easily dismissed. Does Rudd even know who Lou is?
- Im not saying I want him in but Tony Shaw has more claims on being a legend than Richards. So too Sheedy, Hickey, Cahill, Todd, Williams

Lets just award the highest honour that can be bestowed upon someone directly involved in the game to those worthy. Not a fast talking self promoter who played about 15 years of above average football in a mostly unsuccessful team apart from 1 or 2 years.

ps. if you refer to my post I called him an above average footballer. Collingwood named 6 rovers in their team of the century. 6 of them, and Lou wasnt one of them. I dont think he even won a B&F did he, in a 15 year era where they won 1 premiership? So he was no superstar, he was definitely better than your average bloke but no superstar. Are you saying he was better than that?

I did a tiny bit of research on Collingwood (as much as it hurt). Not saying Rose deserves to be in but why would you choose Richards over a Rose for instance? Because he was in the media? Or cause he kicked more meaningless goals?

Lou Richards (Collingwood)15/3/1923
Cheeky rover adored by Magpie fans who antagonised opponents and loved a goal.
Playing career: 1941-1955
Games: 250 Goals: 423
Player honors: club leading goalkicker 1944, 1948, 1950; captain 1952-1955; premiership 1953 (captain); Victoria (3 games, 9 goals).

Bob Rose (Collingwood)7/8/1928-7/7/2003
Regarded by many as the best rover of all time. Certainly his skill and leadership set him above the pack.
Playing career: 1946-1955
Games: 152 Goals: 214
Player honors: 2nd Brownlow Medal 1953; Best & Fairest 1949, 1951, 1952, 1953; club leading goalkicker 1953; All-Australian 1953; Coll Team of the Century; Victoria (15 games, 14 goals).
Coaching record: Collingwood 1964-71, 1985-86 (192 games, 121 wins, 69 losses, 2 draws); Footscray 1972-1975 (89 games, 42 wins, 45 losses, 2 draws).
 
Mr Reliable said:
Some of you people need to take your blinkers off.

Lou is a legend of footy, whether or not he's recognised by the AFL.

I never saw him play but he played 250 games, kicked about 400 goals and captained Collingwood when they won a flag in 1953. Clearly he could play a bit. The fact that he is not in Collingwood's TOC, or that he doesn't fit the criteria, is just an excuse used by people who can't see the wood for the trees.

After he retired as a player,he was a pioneer with Ron Casey of the radio broadcasting of footy in a bright and entertaining way - day games and night games at South Melbourne. Then he did the same as a TV commentator under the most primitive of conditions.

He was a stalwart of World of Sport. Entire families grew up watching and being thoroughly entertained and informed by Lou and Jack Dyer (already a legend) on WOS on a Sunday at lunch time.

He was a superstar footy writer who publicised football as a sporting entertainment in a manner never seen before. He promised to sweep Collins St with a feather duster if a bottom team beat a top team. When the bottom team won, there he was sweeping Collins St with his feather duster. One morning he cut Ted Whitten's lawn with nail scissors after one of his big statements went awry. He was always pro-footy, always entertaining. IIRC, he was the first ever "Kiss of Death".

He has been a high profile footy person for over 50 years. He has promoted the game like nobody else has. There has never been a hint of scandal or bad behaviour about him. He is a unique person, a one-off.

As for the HOF Committee, I don't blame them. The AFL Commission could make him a legend overnight if it had the balls. The Commission makes the rules. It can change them whenever it likes. and then change them back.

Pepole will say umpires, officials and journalists might become legends of the game. Well, in the unlikely event that they do, fine. But that's no reason to fail to recognise a real legend of the game while he's still with us.

Rant over!
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Well said Mr R.

Lou Richards as a player was well before my time but Lou Richards as the face of World of Sport was a true ambassador to our great game. Whether he's recognised by the Hall of Fame or not he's a legend in my eyes.
 
Deflection from the Lou discussion, but thread title is Caro, so I read with interest her take on the Richmond circus over the last few days, and I cannot help but notice the positive slant she puts on her article about the Tiges VS the negative slant she always puts on us.

Examples:

However it is fair to say that yesterday's circus was created by the media and not the club
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(and Chicken gate was not a media driven circus?)

Opposition football teams have for years branded Richmond's playing group as selfish. The Tigers themselves are trying to shake the tag, which is why Mitch Morton was dropped earlier this month
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- Attempting to support the shake of the selfish tag - great work Caro.

he (President Gary March) seems more determined than ever to fight to save what remains of the once-ferocious Richmond Football Club
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(as opposed to cash strapped / financially struggling North Melb FC?).

Her negative spin on us just pisses me off when I read her softly softly articles about Richmond. Credibility = 0.
 
Mr Reliable said:
Some of you people need to take your blinkers off.

Lou is a legend of footy, whether or not he's recognised by the AFL.

I never saw him play but he played 250 games, kicked about 400 goals and captained Collingwood when they won a flag in 1953. Clearly he could play a bit. The fact that he is not in Collingwood's TOC, or that he doesn't fit the criteria, is just an excuse used by people who can't see the wood for the trees.

After he retired as a player,he was a pioneer with Ron Casey of the radio broadcasting of footy in a bright and entertaining way - day games and night games at South Melbourne. Then he did the same as a TV commentator under the most primitive of conditions.

He was a stalwart of World of Sport. Entire families grew up watching and being thoroughly entertained and informed by Lou and Jack Dyer (already a legend) on WOS on a Sunday at lunch time.

He was a superstar footy writer who publicised football as a sporting entertainment in a manner never seen before. He promised to sweep Collins St with a feather duster if a bottom team beat a top team. When the bottom team won, there he was sweeping Collins St with his feather duster. One morning he cut Ted Whitten's lawn with nail scissors after one of his big statements went awry. He was always pro-footy, always entertaining. IIRC, he was the first ever "Kiss of Death".

He has been a high profile footy person for over 50 years. He has promoted the game like nobody else has. There has never been a hint of scandal or bad behaviour about him. He is a unique person, a one-off.

As for the HOF Committee, I don't blame them. The AFL Commission could make him a legend overnight if it had the balls. The Commission makes the rules. It can change them whenever it likes. and then change them back.

Pepole will say umpires, officials and journalists might become legends of the game. Well, in the unlikely event that they do, fine. But that's no reason to fail to recognise a real legend of the game while he's still with us.

Rant over!
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And a very nice rant indeed, Mr Reliable. Well said.

Lou loomed large over the football community from the 50's as a wonderful player for Collingwood to easily the biggest media presence in his hay day at the Sun and World of Sport.

As a kid I remember him commentating on radio, then on TV and he was one of the very best, accurate, fair and in my view unbiased.

I am not going to get into arguing over the merits or otherwise of his selection under the "rules". In my view he fits what should be the criteria of "Legend".
 
Urmoe said:
"The classification of 'Legend' will be applied to honour those players and coaches who have had the most significant impact on the game of Australian Football and caused the game to change significantly for the better. Legends should be players and coaches who immediately come to mind when players and coaches at the very pinnacle are discussed."



- So how do you want to change this criteria?

- You think Rudd and the collingwood supporting premier know more about football legends than KB, Caro and Kennett? I hate these 3 blokes to bits, but really you need to concede that a reference from Rudd and Brumby is something that can be easily dismissed. Does Rudd even know who Lou is?
- Im not saying I want him in but Tony Shaw has more claims on being a legend than Richards. So too Sheedy, Hickey, Cahill, Todd, Williams

Lets just award the highest honour that can be bestowed upon someone directly involved in the game to those worthy. Not a fast talking self promoter who played about 15 years of above average football in a mostly unsuccessful team apart from 1 or 2 years.

ps. if you refer to my post I called him an above average footballer. Collingwood named 6 rovers in their team of the century. 6 of them, and Lou wasnt one of them. I dont think he even won a B&F did he, in a 15 year era where they won 1 premiership? So he was no superstar, he was definitely better than your average bloke but no superstar. Are you saying he was better than that?

I did a tiny bit of research on Collingwood (as much as it hurt). Not saying Rose deserves to be in but why would you choose Richards over a Rose for instance? Because he was in the media? Or cause he kicked more meaningless goals?

Lou Richards (Collingwood)15/3/1923
Cheeky rover adored by Magpie fans who antagonised opponents and loved a goal.
Playing career: 1941-1955
Games: 250 Goals: 423
Player honors: club leading goalkicker 1944, 1948, 1950; captain 1952-1955; premiership 1953 (captain); Victoria (3 games, 9 goals).

Bob Rose (Collingwood)7/8/1928-7/7/2003
Regarded by many as the best rover of all time. Certainly his skill and leadership set him above the pack.
Playing career: 1946-1955
Games: 152 Goals: 214
Player honors: 2nd Brownlow Medal 1953; Best & Fairest 1949, 1951, 1952, 1953; club leading goalkicker 1953; All-Australian 1953; Coll Team of the Century; Victoria (15 games, 14 goals).
Coaching record: Collingwood 1964-71, 1985-86 (192 games, 121 wins, 69 losses, 2 draws); Footscray 1972-1975 (89 games, 42 wins, 45 losses, 2 draws).
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Sorry for mis-quoting you on Lou's football abilities. :eek:

As for the rest, I think I'm about done, but as you were good enough to do some investigating I'll say a few more things.

Legends aren't about stats. Stats may help but legends are legends. Phar Lap, Walter Lindrum, Don Bradman, Tiger Woods one day. I don't think Roy Cazaly was one of the best footballers of all time but he was a legend known by all (not just footy fans) for his high marking. Has Makybe Diva replaced Phar Lap by winning 3 Cups in a row? Maybe she will one but her "legend" is only beginning to grow.

Sporting legends are known to the wider community and not just to the fans of the particular sport. Kevin Rudd doesn't strike me as a footy fan, or even a sports fan, yet when he said he's heard of Lou Richards I believe him. I bet he's never heard of Bob Rose.

Bob "Lexus" Rose is a Collingwood icon, maybe a legend of that footy club. He's even got a statue of himself outside the Lexus Centre. He's probably in the HOF and so he should be, but he's not an AFL legend and, in my opinion never will be. Why not? Because he's a Collingwood person, not a footy person.

Well, that's it. You can have the last word, Urmoe:). I'm done!
 
Jonnoo said:
Deflection from the Lou discussion, but thread title is Caro, so I read with interest her take on the Richmond circus over the last few days, and I cannot help but notice the positive slant she puts on her article about the Tiges VS the negative slant she always puts on us.

Examples:

(and Chicken gate was not a media driven circus?)

- Attempting to support the shake of the selfish tag - great work Caro.

(as opposed to cash strapped / financially struggling North Melb FC?).

Her negative spin on us just pisses me off when I read her softly softly articles about Richmond. Credibility = 0.
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Did you call into 3AW last night?:D

A caller told Caro she wasn't President of Richmond yet, and to stop putting a positive spin on Richmond's pathetic handling of the coaching issue. The caller then said if it was North or Collingwood, "two clubs she hates", she would be merciless in her criticism.

She fobbed the caller off by talking over him and saying Richmond had done pretty well in the circumstances.

By the way, thanks TwinkleToes, blackshadow, GoKangas and Horace for your kind remarks about my rants. I feel strongly about Lou. It's as if I've grown up with him (and yet I've never met him). :confused:
 
Mr Reliable said:
Sorry for mis-quoting you on Lou's football abilities. :eek:

As for the rest, I think I'm about done, but as you were good enough to do some investigating I'll say a few more things.

Legends aren't about stats. Stats may help but legends are legends. Phar Lap, Walter Lindrum, Don Bradman, Tiger Woods one day. I don't think Roy Cazaly was one of the best footballers of all time but he was a legend known by all (not just footy fans) for his high marking. Has Makybe Diva replaced Phar Lap by winning 3 Cups in a row? Maybe she will one but her "legend" is only beginning to grow.

Sporting legends are known to the wider community and not just to the fans of the particular sport. Kevin Rudd doesn't strike me as a footy fan, or even a sports fan, yet when he said he's heard of Lou Richards I believe him. I bet he's never heard of Bob Rose.

Bob "Lexus" Rose is a Collingwood icon, maybe a legend of that footy club. He's even got a statue of himself outside the Lexus Centre. He's probably in the HOF and so he should be, but he's not an AFL legend and, in my opinion never will be. Why not? Because he's a Collingwood person, not a footy person.

Well, that's it. You can have the last word, Urmoe:). I'm done!
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No worries, I hear what you are saying, and he was probably more influential to you growing up than me as I could only watch footy on tv when we were at my grandmothers house as we couldnt afford a tv til I was a teenager.

I really only discovered Lou in the 80's.

I think Hall of Fame is appropriate. (Which in itself is a fair acheivement dont you think?)
 
Mr Reliable said:
Kevin Rudd doesn't strike me as a footy fan, or even a sports fan, yet when he said he's heard of Lou Richards I believe him.
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Really? When Kevin Rudd says he's heard of Lou Richards, it means his press secretary told him about it that morning.

Seriously, while Lou Richards is deserving of his place in the Hall of Fame, I'd have Malcolm Blight or Kevin Sheedy as legends well before Lou.
 
Not sure if it's been mentioned but I heard that Sheahan and Wilson will be off the HOF selection panel after this year (they apparently rotate the panel members).
 
GoNorth said:
Not sure if it's been mentioned but I heard that Sheahan and Wilson will be off the HOF selection panel after this year (they apparently rotate the panel members).
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Hmm....cant wait til Hutchy and Greg Denham replace them.

Lets hope football people get the nod to replace them, not journo's or afl administrators
 

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Lou is not a Legend based on his football achievements.

Hadyn Bunton won 3 Brownlows and 3 Sandover medals and is rightfully a Legend. No way in hell should Lou's work in the media make him eligible for an honour only bestowed on the very best that have played and coached Aussie Rules Football at the highest level.
 
Firstly Lou is a Legend of our Game. Anyone that disagrees with me can lick my sweaty anus.

Secondly Caro has a BIG NOSE and MAN HANDS.

End of Story. Period. Enough Said. Say no More. Case Closed. Lock Thread.
 
Mr Reliable said:
A caller told Caro she wasn't President of Richmond yet, and to stop putting a positive spin on Richmond's pathetic handling of the coaching issue. The caller then said if it was North or Collingwood, "two clubs she hates", she would be merciless in her criticism.
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This theme is most certainly continued in her article today, the lady serpent running through the comedic hotchpotch of events that occurred at the Richmond footy club this week. The more you read it the more ridiculous it gets, it's almost difficult to follow such is the strong 'he said she said' style commentary and it's quite funny overall. What also stands out is the lack of condemnation - the common Caro staples like 'embarrased', 'embroiled', 'at the cross roads', 'in turmoil', 'sources close to the club believe everything is officially fecked'. Like the caller above, can you imagine for a second if this was any other club other than Richmond? Her editoralising would make the article twice as long. Another example of her inexcusable, blatant, laughable hypocrisy.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/rfnews/johnson-led-tiger-revolt/2009/05/20/1242498807872.html
 
ask some sportman who play at the highest level if they would be happy to be acknowledged by their sport as a legend and then put a media personality or umpire or administrator on the same pedestal

Sure there will be some , I think the majority would want the status to apply to playing .

Sure recognize them some other way , why do you think the richards family declined the lifetime achievement award cos they thought it wasn,t good enough an richards should be seen at the same level as playing legends and then run to the media to complain instead of diplomatically keeping quiet.

Much like Eddie two face , I want to leave the day for those who are achieving hall of fame recognition however (rant about richards )..........

If you want to show respect shut up until after the awards, don't be a hipocrite .
 
Archer_11 said:
This theme is most certainly continued in her article today, the lady serpent running through the comedic hotchpotch of events that occurred at the Richmond footy club this week. The more you read it the more ridiculous it gets, it's almost difficult to follow such is the strong 'he said she said' style commentary and it's quite funny overall. What also stands out is the lack of condemnation - the common Caro staples like 'embarrased', 'embroiled', 'at the cross roads', 'in turmoil', 'sources close to the club believe everything is officially fecked'. Like the caller above, can you imagine for a second if this was any other club other than Richmond? Her editoralising would make the article twice as long. Another example of her inexcusable, blatant, laughable hypocrisy.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/rfnews/johnson-led-tiger-revolt/2009/05/20/1242498807872.html
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I read it, thanks. There was an early "strife-torn club" and that was it.

It will be interesting to see how her version of events compares with Hutchy's tonight on TFS. Someone suggested her thource is Gary March and in return for his thcoops she is soft-pedalling on his administration.

She's a classic but the walls are closing in on her. Big Ed is a wake up to her and goads her constantly these days. Huddo suggested on SEN last weekend that she was a hypocrite for her hand-wringing anguish over Thomas' sacking from SEN (after she had made sure he had no future at the Age - allegedly).
 
Will we see an article from sh&t truck about its club. Well heres Terry's reaction to when his Captain came knocking earlier in the week :);)
[YOUTUBE]tNsgckvAJNQ[/YOUTUBE]
 

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