- Banned
- #14,526
sorry.. one of them is meant to be Gregory
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)
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Whispering_Jack
Norm Smith Medallist
Why bother with those two? Sensationalist "commentators" who are just in it for themselves.
eth-dog
Tier 1 WW Player
Best ting about the Saga is the timeline:
Start: "lol, Essendon. Using PEDs but still shit"
Now: "They're still reaping the rewards of illegal drugz!!!1"
Start: "lol, Essendon. Using PEDs but still shit"
Now: "They're still reaping the rewards of illegal drugz!!!1"
2one2
Premiership Player
- May 30, 2012
- 3,569
- 5,429
- AFL Club
- Essendon
And of course fat campaigner smith after his vitriol fuelled "kick them all out" calls of feb 13 is hindsight hero saying all this would be good if Evans was around. Also says that apparently Da HiRD CAMp didn't cooperate with ASADA last year? He is literally just making shit up on the fly. Thundercampaigner
cymarak
Go Gators !
'Beyond reasonable doubt' isn't the test for doping violations.
'Comfortable satisfaction' is the test - ASADA would need to establish 'to the comfortable satisaction of the AFL Tribunal' that a doping violation has occurred.
AFL shall have the burden of establishing that an Anti Doping Rule Violation has occurred. The standard of proof shall be whether AFL has established an Anti Doping Rule Violation to the comfortable satisfaction of CAS or the Tribunal bearing in mind the seriousness of the allegation which is made. This standard of proof in all cases is greater than a mere balance of probability, but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
EDIT: added quote from anti-doping code (clause 15.1).
2one2
Premiership Player
- May 30, 2012
- 3,569
- 5,429
- AFL Club
- Essendon
Old mate's "cyborgs" comment after the Carlton game still the best of all.
dougyboy
Team Captain
- Feb 8, 2013
- 461
- 565
- AFL Club
- Essendon
Dont listen to it. Turn the Cretins off. Don t ever turn it back on. The station is S__t anyway. Even IF they were all rubbed out we could field a team stonger than half the comp. Kicked out PFFFT - idiots.....
- Apr 11, 2002
- 35,003
- 36,721
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- Iggles, Georgia.
Having the night to think about it - I think this is a positive and still best case scenario situation for us. I am actually more optimistic now than I was this time yesterday.
They will never state this in any way, but they have effectively cleared all the other drugs including the legal minefield which is AOD. IMHO that would have been the worst case scenario, as the status is unclear and there is little doubt we took it.
On TB4 - it is a very questionable one, further complicated by the 2 strands having a different status, which is going to be very hard for Asada to get this over their eventual threshold - higher than balance of probabilities.
These notices were ALWAYS coming, nobody should be surprised. This isnt news. What is news is that they seemingly are only going for one of the drugs in question, and there is are so many question marks on it the lawyers are going to have a field day.
From here, I think the club should:
1. Respond to them quickly, basically saying our show cause is that we didn't take that drug.
2. Get this in court - anyway we can, attack the process in the federal court ASAP.
The reason why 2 is important is to show them that we are dead serious, and not the big mouthed-pussy cat Little turned out to be last year.
Most of the time, court works due convincing the other party you are prepared to go - then deals get done very late when all parties realise this is actually happening.
ASADA will stuff around, make hollow threats and trip over themselves all day whilst they have no fear of repurcussion.
We should have done this early in the piece against Fairfax and News as well, including certain journos personally - stop the non stop rumours. God we have handled this poorly.
They will never state this in any way, but they have effectively cleared all the other drugs including the legal minefield which is AOD. IMHO that would have been the worst case scenario, as the status is unclear and there is little doubt we took it.
On TB4 - it is a very questionable one, further complicated by the 2 strands having a different status, which is going to be very hard for Asada to get this over their eventual threshold - higher than balance of probabilities.
These notices were ALWAYS coming, nobody should be surprised. This isnt news. What is news is that they seemingly are only going for one of the drugs in question, and there is are so many question marks on it the lawyers are going to have a field day.
From here, I think the club should:
1. Respond to them quickly, basically saying our show cause is that we didn't take that drug.
2. Get this in court - anyway we can, attack the process in the federal court ASAP.
The reason why 2 is important is to show them that we are dead serious, and not the big mouthed-pussy cat Little turned out to be last year.
Most of the time, court works due convincing the other party you are prepared to go - then deals get done very late when all parties realise this is actually happening.
ASADA will stuff around, make hollow threats and trip over themselves all day whilst they have no fear of repurcussion.
We should have done this early in the piece against Fairfax and News as well, including certain journos personally - stop the non stop rumours. God we have handled this poorly.
cymarak
Go Gators !
It's somewhere in between, and I don't think anyone can give us a more precise definition than that - it's very subjective and vague.
The key point is that the AFL / ASADA have to show as an absolute minimum that it is more likely that a doping violation did occur than it did not occur. How far they have to go beyond that minimum standard depends on the mood of the tribunal.
- Banned
- #14,536
Standard of Proof/Burden of Proof:
Show Case Notices: Doping possibly occurred/ Athlete to prove it did not
ADRVP: Doping likely occurred / ASADA to demonstrate it warrants registration of findings
Infractions: Doping MORE than likely occurred to a high degree of confidence / ASADA has the burden of putting the 'banned substance IN the athlete'
Appeal: Doping occurred to a high degree of probability / Athlete to demonstrate that a) the findings were wrong or b) the investigation process was flawed.
So at this stage, ASADA doesn't need to have a slam dunk case, it merely need to have enough to warrant further investigation/questions of the athlete.
The best course of action would be for every player to categorically state "I believed I was receiving the legal variant, I consented to receiving the legal variant, I was given the legal variant"
At the same time, the club launches an action in court to show that the investigation has been compromised, not followed protocol and all evidence should be inadmissible on that basis.
Show Case Notices: Doping possibly occurred/ Athlete to prove it did not
ADRVP: Doping likely occurred / ASADA to demonstrate it warrants registration of findings
Infractions: Doping MORE than likely occurred to a high degree of confidence / ASADA has the burden of putting the 'banned substance IN the athlete'
Appeal: Doping occurred to a high degree of probability / Athlete to demonstrate that a) the findings were wrong or b) the investigation process was flawed.
So at this stage, ASADA doesn't need to have a slam dunk case, it merely need to have enough to warrant further investigation/questions of the athlete.
The best course of action would be for every player to categorically state "I believed I was receiving the legal variant, I consented to receiving the legal variant, I was given the legal variant"
At the same time, the club launches an action in court to show that the investigation has been compromised, not followed protocol and all evidence should be inadmissible on that basis.
- Banned
- #14,537
Perfectly said.. I duplicated at the same time sorry.
But you are spot on that this is the right course of action and VERY important for the club to stop posturing and actually lodge action. Bring it to a head and quickly.
I hope the players get off, but I would hate for it to drag on. Even if the legal process takes a long time, these players would have this hanging on their heads for a while. Highly doubt they will enjoy playing football. The club is screwed either way I think because it is looking unlikely that there will be no suspensions. Any suspensions and the players will sue the sh*t out of the club. Lengthy legal process and the club will lose so much money. If this delays the suspensions, players will sue the sh*t out of the club once they get suspended.
This means that any sort of finals appearance or premiership window is 10+ years away. Would need a complete rebuild after this mess is finished. To think that all of this started to get ahead of the pack...
By rebuild, I mean a complete rebuild, from top to bottom. Yes I am including Hird here too because he played a role in this mess. Not going to have the media circle around for the next 5+ years for a single person and this is what some Essendon supporters need to see. There is no way the senior coach has no responsibility in what happened. If anything, he should resign so that the club stops sinking down even more than what it already has. Hird continuing will do this club absolutely no favours with the media circling around like vultures. It is not like the general public will ever change their mind about Hird.
This mess will stunt the growth of the club for the next decade if it hasn't already. Clubs like Collingwood, Hawthorn and Richmond (if they sort themselves out) will pass us by a mile and continue widening the gap.
This BS has affected two seasons already and will continue to affect every season that it drags into. Just as we were looking like building towards premiership number 17 after years of sh*tness.
The AFL banning Essendon from last year's finals was for nothing to be honest.
In all honesty, I am just about done with AFL all together. Screw it.
This means that any sort of finals appearance or premiership window is 10+ years away. Would need a complete rebuild after this mess is finished. To think that all of this started to get ahead of the pack...
By rebuild, I mean a complete rebuild, from top to bottom. Yes I am including Hird here too because he played a role in this mess. Not going to have the media circle around for the next 5+ years for a single person and this is what some Essendon supporters need to see. There is no way the senior coach has no responsibility in what happened. If anything, he should resign so that the club stops sinking down even more than what it already has. Hird continuing will do this club absolutely no favours with the media circling around like vultures. It is not like the general public will ever change their mind about Hird.
This mess will stunt the growth of the club for the next decade if it hasn't already. Clubs like Collingwood, Hawthorn and Richmond (if they sort themselves out) will pass us by a mile and continue widening the gap.
This BS has affected two seasons already and will continue to affect every season that it drags into. Just as we were looking like building towards premiership number 17 after years of sh*tness.
The AFL banning Essendon from last year's finals was for nothing to be honest.
In all honesty, I am just about done with AFL all together. Screw it.
cymarak
Go Gators !
ASADA had enough evidence 12 months ago to issue show cause notices.
What is unknown is whether they have any evidence that's not been leaked yet.
cymarak
Go Gators !
Hird should resign because otherwise the media will try to make the club's life hard ?
If you like, I can arrange a meeting of the leading footy journos, and we can get them to select our next coach for us. While we're at it, we can also get them to decide for us who to draft, who our board should be and whether Carlisle should play forwards or back.
- Banned
- #14,541
Yeah.. but they didn't want to issue SC notices because they knew they wouldn't go further..
So the big question is HAS anything changed now.. or is this a last ditch effort to salvage a 16 month investigation from being the mess it is?
Time will tell.. the other point being that IF the club has been open and honest then they SHOULD know whether banned substances were used.. in which case I think they would have come forward earlier to negotiate an outcome. 6 months as victims of fraud or whatever..
No matter what happens from here..the club is stuffed anyway..
Come on, it is not like there are no other available coaches to steer us to our next premiership.Hird should resign because otherwise the media will try to make the club's life hard ?
If you like, I can arrange a meeting of the leading footy journos, and we can get them to select our next coach for us. While we're at it, we can also get them to decide for us who to draft, who our board should be and whether Carlisle should play forwards or back.
Hird should resign because he took part in this mess and I don't think the club can move on with him coaching us. It may be harsh from my part, but this reality
boncer34
Formerly "Dos23"
What'd I miss?
ASADA statement?
The ****? I thought they couldn't and wouldn't comment or confirm any of this shit? It's supposed to be confidential
Ben the Gooner
Stand by Hird
What the actual ****?
cymarak
Go Gators !
Should everyone who 'took part in this mess' resign ?
What about the players ? They made the same fundamental mistake as Hird - trusting the sports science staff too much and not doing enough of their own checking - should they resign as well ?
(for the record, I do NOT believe the players should resign)
- Banned
- #14,547
How about the novel approach of waiting to see where this ends up before we sack people or ask them to resign.
Maybe don't accept the worst punishments in the league history BEFORE ensuring you have finished ALL aspects of the case.. that might have been a good idea.
Fair Dinkum heck up after heck up..
Maybe don't accept the worst punishments in the league history BEFORE ensuring you have finished ALL aspects of the case.. that might have been a good idea.
Fair Dinkum heck up after heck up..
interesting because it shows what ****ing knackers they are. No clues
Kong
Hall of Famer
- Oct 11, 2007
- 32,200
- 16,872
- AFL Club
- Essendon
The Josh Bootsma Defence.
Yeah excuse my rant lol and half of it probably doesn't make sense. To make it simple, I want to watch my team play like any other supporter without this BS hanging on top of it. Those who contributed to the current state of the club need to leave so that we can go back to playing football.
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