Asia China's growing influence

[barreness]

We do indirectly have a say. If there was an action that the overwhelming majority were against then one of the parties would run its campaign against it. Thats how democracy works. This hasnt happened on those issues because most australians are for them. Whether you like it not most australians are for AUKUS. And its not just at elections that people have a say. The parties are regularly polling the people for their views and they change policies when the polling suggests they should.

Is our democratic system perfect? Far from yes. But its way way ahead of how it works in China. When the people are against something the government often responds by running propaganda campaigns and cracking down on dissidents until the majority have changed their view to suit the ruling party.

This is peak irony

Chinese people are currently being primed to invade Taiwan and taking that country as their own.

It's a civil war artefact and they've been waning to finish it since the 40's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis

US aligned nations are being primed for a war with China. China hasn't changed policy in decades. WE DON'T RECOGNISE Taiwan ffs

Its not their fault. They have been fed too much propaganda. Xi wants reclaiming taiwan to be his legacy (not all party members do but unfortunately the one that leads the party very much does). Whens the last time western countries population have been wanting such actions. Sure they have wanted to overthrow dictators at times. But the majority doesnt want to claim another country amd its people as their own (I cant even remember when there was a minority that did to be honest).

You're so close to the reality, just one more hurdle

 

[Aussie in exile]

This is peak irony

It's a civil war artefact and they've been waning to finish it since the 40's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis

US aligned nations are being primed for a war with China. China hasn't changed policy in decades. WE DON'T RECOGNISE Taiwan ffs

You're so close to the reality, just one more hurdle

I give you and Ilovethepied credit for comefy value.
Both you you keep posting as it makes us laugh.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

We do get to elect governments, hold protests etc all rights denied to the Chinese people under Xis increasingly dictatorial and aggressive government. 43 ALP (and I would.assume all Greens) publically attacked the war on Iraq (good on them for standing up for what they believed- under Xi, they and their families would have disappeared or had sudden health problems).

Yep, all true. I mean, f*ck load of good it did that we the people in our democratic majority opposed the 2003 Iraq invasion on the streets as we did, the truth of it all was we were not ground under tank treads nor machinegunned with live ammunition.

We were simply ignored and war policy carried the day. Democracy truly means f*ck all sometimes.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

So in those polls you have 45-50 percent who support it and 10 percent or less against it. The others either dont care or dont know. So of those whose vote may be influenced by this issue 80 percent want it to stay and only 20 percent want it to end. This is why it stays. Its proof of my point. If the numbers were the other away around im guessing one party comes out against it.

That is a wrong interpretation. According to the given poll only 49% are for it. In a voting situation they can never gain majority as the undecided/against, however fractured, will always make up 51%. Even if you allow a plus/negative of 5 or 10 percent that's still undecisive enough to be decisive.

If that makes sense

 

[Seeds]

That is a wrong interpretation. According to the given poll only 49% are for it. In a voting situation they can never gain majority as the undecided/against, however fractured, will always make up 51%. Even if you allow a plus/negative of 5 or 10 percent that's still undecisive enough to be decisive.

If that makes sense

But why would you assume the 40 percent who dont know or dont care are all voting against it? By very definition they dont know or dont care. Even if they are forced to vote in a mandatory referendum they are going to vote roughly 50-50 either way. That gives you 70 percent for and 30 percent against. Which is an overwhelming yes. Thats how a referendum would play out.

 

[Rob R]

I give you and Ilovethepied credit for comefy value.
Both you you keep posting as it makes us laugh.

I wouldn't put Baroness into the same class as ilovedpies. Whilst Baroness is totally loyal to the CCP even referring to China as "we" their arguments are much more coherent and often raise some good points albeit out of context. Often made easier by the fact that what Xi is doing is what the West did but largely grew out of last century (the Iraq war of course being the awful decision that continues to be exploited to attack the west)

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Rob R]

Yep, all true. I mean, f*ck load of good it did that we the people in our democratic majority opposed the 2003 Iraq invasion on the streets as we did, the truth of it all was we were not ground under tank treads nor machinegunned with live ammunition.

We were simply ignored and war policy carried the day. Democracy truly means f*ck all sometimes.

That was a sh*tty time period, hard to believe how many people had no clue about how diverse Islam was and how few actually supported Bin Laden. What made it worse though was the stupid decision to disarm the Iraqi army turning what had largely been welcomed as a liberating force into an occupation force.

PS. would never call you a bot as you actually listen and acknowledge other views.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

But why would you assume the 40 percent who dont know or dont care are all voting against it? By very definition they dont know or dont care. Even if they are forced to vote in a mandatory referendum they are going to vote roughly 50-50 either way. That gives you 70 percent for and 30 percent against. Which is an overwhelming yes. Thats how a referendum would play out.

Yeah. If you look at the absolute numbers there are more absolute 'yes' than absolute 'no' votes. I am opposed to AUKUS but if that is the way people see it that is the way they see it. Us opposed need to work on our messaging.

I've always been for the non-aligned 'independent power' approach, myself.

 

[Carringbush2010]

China has been imperialist for a couple of thousand years and still is. Just because someone threw a label at it in the 19th century doesn't mean imperialism didn't exist before then.

I'm sure their neighbours want their fishing grounds annexed. Slicing off bits of Bhutan is another stellar non-imperialist move.

It depends on how you use the word "imperialist"

If you wish to use it as an epithet for an ancient civilisation based on a pre-capitalist economy with an emperor as the ruling political figure, that is fine, but then it has no scientific content which can illuminate our understanding of the current situation. In other words, it is devoid of any significant meaning.

If however, the word is used in a scientific historical sense, in relation to the development of capitalism (which is our current reality), then it is being used in a rational manner which can actually shed light on the contemporary conditions. It is in this sense that I am using tthe word "imperialist", and in this sense, China is not an imperialist nation. Nor is Russia.

I think the term expansionist explains Xi well, how imperialism is, is probably defined by ones opinion of the term and how much it overlaps with expansionism.

 

[IlovethePies]

I think the term expansionist explains Xi well, how imperialism is, is probably defined by ones opinion of the term and how much it overlaps with expansionism.

China has not:

a) bombarded another country and annihilated its infrastructure
b) invaded another country and tried to set up puppet governments
c) fomented regime change operations in another country
d) carried out random drone assassinations in another country
e) funded genocide.
f) encircled the territory of another major power with a constellation of military bases
g) sent ships within close proximity to the coast of another country
h) frozen the assets of another country held in the international banking system...

I will let you guess which country/countries have done some or all of the points mentioned in the above check list.

 

[Carringbush2010]

China has not:

a) bombarded another country and annihilated its infrastructure
b) invaded another country and tried to set up puppet governments
c) fomented regime change operations in another country
d) carried out random drone assassinations in another country
e) funded genocide.
f) encircled the territory of another major power with a constellation of military bases
g) sent ships within close proximity to the coast of another country
h) frozen the assets of another country held in the international banking system...

I will let you guess which country/countries have done some or all of the points mentioned in the above check list.

Not the point though is it, again not a question, a statement.

Whether or not China has used your points to expand, doesn't take away from the fact that China IS an expansionist.

Your points are irrelevant as to whether or not China is an expansionist, quite clearly China IS.

 

[Smeg Head]

Its done all of those bar h

 

[IlovethePies]

Not the point though is it, again not a question, a statement.

Whether or not China has used your points to expand, doesn't take away from the fact that China IS an expansionist.

Your points are irrelevant as to whether or not China is an expansionist, quite clearly China IS.

From whose viewpoint is China expansionist?
From the viewpoint of one of the imperialist governments alluded to in the checklist above, certainly.
And this is because the very growth of China's economy is leading inevitably to an expansion of its weight in the world economy, which threatens the financial and economic stability of the old imperialist powers.

 

[Carringbush2010]

From whose viewpoint is China expansionist?
From the viewpoint of one of the imperialist governments alluded to in the checklist above, certainly.
And this is because the very growth of China's economy is leading inevitably to an expansion of its weight in the world economy, which threatens the financial and economic stability of the old imperialist powers.

Then you're in the wrong thread, perhaps jump on the US bashing threads.

 

[IlovethePies]

Then you're in the wrong thread, perhaps jump on the US bashing threads.

Don't think the response of the US to China's growing economic influence is irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Don't think the response of the US to China's growing economic influence is irrelevant to this thread.

Either or, China IS an expansionist, and they do have influence, that is the point of the thread.

Jump on the US bash threads if that's what you wanna do, clearly that is your prerogative.

 

[IlovethePies]

Either or, China IS an expansionist, and they do have influence, that is the point of the thread.

Jump on the US bash threads if that's what you wanna do, clearly that is your prerogative.

China's influence in the world economy is growing, there is no doubt.
But this does not imply that China is an imperialist nation. That is the only point I am making.

 

[Carringbush2010]

China's influence in the world economy is growing, there is no doubt.
But this does not imply that China is an imperialist nation. That is the only point I am making.

OK, if they're not imperials they're definitely expansionists.

 

[sdfc]

China has not:

a) bombarded another country and annihilated its infrastructure
b) invaded another country and tried to set up puppet governments
c) fomented regime change operations in another country
d) carried out random drone assassinations in another country
e) funded genocide.
f) encircled the territory of another major power with a constellation of military bases
g) sent ships within close proximity to the coast of another country
h) frozen the assets of another country held in the international banking system...

I will let you guess which country/countries have done some or all of the points mentioned in the above check list.

Has anyone argued that west isn't imperialist?

China has, and continues to bully its neighbours and has colonised foreign territory over long period of time

How is that not imperialism?

 

[rank and file]

Panda diplomacy kicking in.
WA crayfish crew stoked and Chinese crew loving that they can eat crays while letting off fireworks on New Years.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10...restrictions-on-australian-lobsters/104457368

 

[CD Xbow]

Indonesian Navy have driven off a Chinese coast guard ship that tried to stop a geological survey in Indonesia's EEZ, in the waters around North Natuna - its somewhere amongst all those red markers. I'm not seeing any of the PRC near those islands, I guess they fall within the fanciful 9 dash line.

Indonesia says its coast guard drove away Chinese ship that interrupted survey in disputed sea

Indonesian patrol ships drove a Chinese coast guard vessel away from a survey vessel in a disputed area of the South China Sea for the second time in three days, Indonesian authorities said Thursday.

apnews.com

The PRC behaviour reminds me of a cartoon from my childhood.

If only I could find a similar scene with Winnie the poo.

 

[CD Xbow]

Surprise, surprise. The PRC is up to fishy business in the Southern Ocean

China’s fishy behaviour demands a rethink on Southern Ocean | The Strategist

A new element of strategic competition is emerging in the Southern Ocean—in Australia’s backyard—in the form of Beijing’s push to control and exploit fisheries. The situation demands that we bolster capability while also cultivating consensus ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Note - the PRC and Russia have stopped any progress on the Antarctic Treaty regarding conservation since 2016

China-Russia cooperation blocks Antarctic conservation proposals

Analysts say two nations could challenge continent’s status quo

www.voanews.com

PRC, with it's love of peace and harmony, have been prodding at Prabowo Subianto’s new administration, now with three successive incursions by China Coast Guard vessels into Indonesia’s exclusive economic zone.

Indonesian coast guard drives away a Chinese vessel in disputed waters for the third time in a week

Indonesian patrol ships have driven a Chinese coast guard vessel away from a survey ship in a disputed area of the South China Sea for the third time in a week, according to a statement from Indonesia’s Maritime Security Agency

abcnews.go.com

 

[Sqotty from office works]

Surprise, surprise. The PRC is up to fishy business in the Southern Ocean

China’s fishy behaviour demands a rethink on Southern Ocean | The Strategist

A new element of strategic competition is emerging in the Southern Ocean—in Australia’s backyard—in the form of Beijing’s push to control and exploit fisheries. The situation demands that we bolster capability while also cultivating consensus ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Note - the PRC and Russia have stopped any progress on the Antarctic Treaty regarding conservation since 2016

China-Russia cooperation blocks Antarctic conservation proposals

Analysts say two nations could challenge continent’s status quo

www.voanews.com

PRC, with it's love of peace and harmony, have been prodding at Prabowo Subianto’s new administration, now with three successive incursions by China Coast Guard vessels into Indonesia’s exclusive economic zone.

Indonesian coast guard drives away a Chinese vessel in disputed waters for the third time in a week

Indonesian patrol ships have driven a Chinese coast guard vessel away from a survey ship in a disputed area of the South China Sea for the third time in a week, according to a statement from Indonesia’s Maritime Security Agency

abcnews.go.com

And the idiots in Tassie keep selling the lobster stock to them.
Good luck with that fishery in 30 years time.

 

[CD Xbow]

And the idiots in Tassie keep selling the lobster stock to them.
Good luck with that fishery in 30 years time.

Stock meaning lobsters to eat or lobsters to breed?

 

[Aussie in exile]

Surprise, surprise. The PRC is up to fishy business in the Southern Ocean

China’s fishy behaviour demands a rethink on Southern Ocean | The Strategist

A new element of strategic competition is emerging in the Southern Ocean—in Australia’s backyard—in the form of Beijing’s push to control and exploit fisheries. The situation demands that we bolster capability while also cultivating consensus ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Note - the PRC and Russia have stopped any progress on the Antarctic Treaty regarding conservation since 2016

China-Russia cooperation blocks Antarctic conservation proposals

Analysts say two nations could challenge continent’s status quo

www.voanews.com

PRC, with it's love of peace and harmony, have been prodding at Prabowo Subianto’s new administration, now with three successive incursions by China Coast Guard vessels into Indonesia’s exclusive economic zone.

Indonesian coast guard drives away a Chinese vessel in disputed waters for the third time in a week

Indonesian patrol ships have driven a Chinese coast guard vessel away from a survey ship in a disputed area of the South China Sea for the third time in a week, according to a statement from Indonesia’s Maritime Security Agency

abcnews.go.com

For those of us who have worked in China this just confirms that China can't be trusted on any level, but i dare those who have never worked there will defend China's actions.