Current Claremont Murders - The Bunker

[ms finch]

I don't know whether he's got it or not LAM, just thought it was interesting that another serial killer did.

From the reading, Klinefelter ranges from mild forms to severe so I'm not sure the baggies contents would mean a great deal.

Regarding the sperm, I do not think (and I am happy to be corrected by a medical professional here) that just because people with Klinefelter syndrome produce no sperm they produce no fluid. I think they can still ejaculate; it’s just a low or zero count.

In theory if Edwards was told this, it may be why he was so obsessed with his sperm that he kept it in baggies.

However, one thing that strikes me is that Klinefelter syndrome is usually accompanied by weaker muscles. Is that something that Edwards seemed to have? He looked like a pretty fit bloke in his younger years, although obviously I am only going on pictures and could be completely wrong on that.

Totally appreciate that you are just putting information out there; I’m just continuing the various trains of thought. I think it’s interesting as a possibility.

 

[Girlnextdoor]

Further to the unusual gait, turned foot of BRE I just found this photo which clearly shows a turned left foot (I thought it was the right one in previous photos, looks like he has problems with both?)
Again I don't know how to load these properly so you have to click the download button, then open button so you can see it, but this is a very good image to study, I think)

Also, his wrist looks very small for a man? Could this mean weaker muscle/tendon development?

 

[Kurve]

However, one thing that strikes me is that Klinefelter syndrome is usually accompanied by weaker muscles. Is that something that Edwards seemed to have? He looked like a pretty fit bloke in his younger years, although obviously I am only going on pictures and could be completely wrong on that.

Totally appreciate that you are just putting information out there; I’m just continuing the various trains of thought. I think it’s interesting as a possibility.

Here's serial killer Bobby Joe Long who had Klinefelter's XXY, he also had children. From my reading if it's picked up early enough testosterone can help development through puberty and that treatment can continue into adult life.

There's been quite a bit of debate about whether there's an increased frequency among criminal offenders, more specifically sex offenders who have Klinfelters.

 

[Girlnextdoor]

"Until 1996, men with Klinefelter syndrome were considered infertile. Since then, however, developments in microsurgical techniques and advances in artificial reproductive technologies (ART) have enabled over 50% of men with Klinefelter syndrome to sire their own children. Success has been achieved through a combination of microsurgical testicular sperm extraction (TESE) and the use of freshly retrieved sperm for in-vitro fertilization (IVF). "

"Men with Klinefelter mosaic cell lines may have viable sperm in their ejaculate and hence be able to father a child without assisted reproductive technology."

Klinefelter Syndrome Treatment & Management: Medical Care, Surgical Care, Consultations

In 1942, Klinefelter et al published a report on 9 men who had enlarged breasts, sparse facial and body hair, small testes, and an inability to produce sperm. In 1959, these men with Klinefelter syndrome were discovered to have an extra X chromosome (genotype XXY) instead of the usual male sex...

www.medscape.com

And this is something I thought I'd research so I put in my search transgender and this came up, fascinating?

"These three reports are further examples of gender dysphoria in Klinefelter’s syndrome. The role of biological factors in gender identity is affirmed. Caution is urged in prescribing testosterone." BBM

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

 

[Likeamystery]

I don't know whether he's got it or not LAM, just thought it was interesting that another serial killer did.

From the reading, Klinefelter ranges from mild forms to severe so I'm not sure the baggies contents would mean a great deal.

Think you're onto something with the Klinefelter Syndrome, some of the symptoms are interesting. It also mentions the chromosome which is an extra X or Y. I suppose if someone has a syndrome it doesn't necessarily mean that they know they have one. It would be interesting to know when testing for KS was available.

Perhaps we should have a look at the complete symptoms and discuss. Check out his stature and whether he's hairy or not.

Further to the unusual gait, turned foot of BRE I just found this photo which clearly shows a turned left foot (I thought it was the right one in previous photos, looks like he has problems with both?)
Again I don't know how to load these properly so you have to click the download button, then open button so you can see it, but this is a very good image to study, I think)

Also, his wrist looks very small for a man? Could this mean weaker muscle/tendon development?

I’ve replied to both Rockman 928 and GND – GND thanks for the photos,

Yes, by using the Telstra vehicle BRE had unlimited fuel, with no questions asked. Prowling was fully funded by the taxpayer.

BRE doesn't have toned muscular arms. What about a form of arthritis (osteoporosis i.e. Klinefeldter's Syndrome)?

BRE definitely attended a local sleep apnoea clinic for a while then stopped attending. Loud snoring would probably cause a spouse to sleep within another room. If that was the case, BRE probably felt rejected.

I’m sure back in 1994/95 tests were available for sperm count. Perhaps BRE had a test which came back with a low count. Could certainly explain why DF was introduced into the family home – a donor who was lured?

Perhaps whilst BRE grew up, the mother may have mollycoddled him if he’d had health problems. Thinking telstical/s may not have dropped (i.e. Klinefeldter’s Syndrome). Also, a displaced hip would need a bulky plaster cast. Of course, I'm only guessing that he may have had a displaced hip because his foot seems to be slightly turned inward.

The mother may have tolerated the dressing up both I’d think the father would have become angry and BRE almost, certainly ridiculed.

The photo of BRE as an early high school student. He’s so small and certainly looks innocent. I’m sure he would have been bullied because he was short and possibly had other ailments. I wonder if BRE actually liked himself or not.

 

[Kurve]

And this is something I thought I'd research so I put in my search transgender and this came up, fascinating?

"These three reports are further examples of gender dysphoria in Klinefelter’s syndrome. The role of biological factors in gender identity is affirmed. Caution is urged in prescribing testosterone." BBM

This might refer more to current treatment, we know a lot more now about gender conflict/dysphoria than we did back in the 80s. I'm not surprised either that caution is now being urged in loading them up with testosterone. It can wreak havoc.

 

[Girlnextdoor]

This might refer more to current treatment, we know a lot more now about gender conflict/dysphoria than we did back in the 80s. I'm not surprised either that caution is now being urged in loading them up with testosterone. It can wreak havoc.

Very interesting legal settlement in UK about Klinefelter's Syndrome.

“A very curious state of affairs”: success for Daniel Sokol in rare clinical negligence case - 12 King's Bench Walk

Daniel Sokol acted for the Claimant in a remarkable case which eventually settled for £700,000. He was instructed by Daniel Thomas, of New Law. In 1968, the Claimant was 13 when he underwent an operation for undescended testicles. After the operation, the surgeon wrote to the GP about a “very...

www.12kbw.co.uk

 

[Girlnextdoor]

Regarding first marriage breakdown and BRE's response (or lack of) and some Klinefelter Syndrome research.

"The break wasn't clean.

While living with her new lover, the woman returned to the matrimonial home and had sex with Edwards.

The next morning, she asked him if they were doing the right thing, suggesting they sort out their marriage, but he was non-responsive.

"He didn't say anything to me at all," she said.

"He never made any comment about us separating.

"He did not ask me to return."

Edwards remained expressionless in the dock as the intimate details emerged" BBM

Claremont serial killings: Ex-wife of accused killer Bradley Edwards testifies

The first witness to testify in the Claremont serial killings trial is the accused's first wife, who revealed he barely reacted during their messy break-up.

www.sbs.com.au

"Although boys and men have been described in the literature as withdrawn, unassertive, or passive (Visootsak & Graham, 2009), many adolescents and men may also seek professional help for impulsive behaviors and emotional outbursts in stressful or frustrating situations." BBM

Emotion regulation in adults with Klinefelter syndrome (47,XXY): Neurocognitive underpinnings and associations with mental health problems - PMC

The aim of this study is to evaluate if language and executive functioning deficits in individuals with the 47,XXY chromosomal pattern contribute to emotion regulation problems and related symptoms of psychopathology. A group of 26 adult men with ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Rockman928]

Fabulous post, really enjoyed reading it Rockman928! Just one question, BRE was a bad snorer, you have this from a "reliable source", so someone who slept with him? Or stayed over his house after a party, or is a close family member?

Of course you can't tell us, but is it one of these options? Or perhaps someone who worked in a Sleep Clinic BRE attended, now that WOULD be an interesting option!

Yes it is one of those options.


Not sure if I'm sold on the 'sperm donor' aspect of DF moving in...just another person coming in to help with the rental payments IMO. But no way to be certain, I suppose.

 

[Likeamystery]

Regarding first marriage breakdown and BRE's response (or lack of) and some Klinefelter Syndrome research.

"The break wasn't clean.

While living with her new lover, the woman returned to the matrimonial home and had sex with Edwards.

The next morning, she asked him if they were doing the right thing, suggesting they sort out their marriage, but he was non-responsive.

"He didn't say anything to me at all," she said.

"He never made any comment about us separating.

"He did not ask me to return."

Edwards remained expressionless in the dock as the intimate details emerged" BBM

Claremont serial killings: Ex-wife of accused killer Bradley Edwards testifies

The first witness to testify in the Claremont serial killings trial is the accused's first wife, who revealed he barely reacted during their messy break-up.

www.sbs.com.au

"Although boys and men have been described in the literature as withdrawn, unassertive, or passive (Visootsak & Graham, 2009), many adolescents and men may also seek professional help for impulsive behaviors and emotional outbursts in stressful or frustrating situations." BBM

Emotion regulation in adults with Klinefelter syndrome (47,XXY): Neurocognitive underpinnings and associations with mental health problems - PMC

The aim of this study is to evaluate if language and executive functioning deficits in individuals with the 47,XXY chromosomal pattern contribute to emotion regulation problems and related symptoms of psychopathology. A group of 26 adult men with ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If he'd wanted EE back he would have said so, there and then. Thinking BRE might be the sort of person who expects other people to read his mind. Sounds like he was lost for words - completely dumbfounded. It wasn't the first time EE had been unfaithful and initially she'd left a boyfriend to be with BRE.

 

[Girlnextdoor]

If he'd wanted EE back he would have said so, there and then. Thinking BRE might be the sort of person who expects other people to read his mind. Sounds like he was lost for words - completely dumbfounded. It wasn't the first time EE had been unfaithful and initially she'd left a boyfriend to be with BRE.

I think LAM that was one of the frustrations for Wife 1 and Wife 2 with BRE, he didn't say much at all and that could be because of the Klinefelter Syndrome too?

"Boys and men with Klinefelter syndrome tend to have better receptive language skills (the ability to understand speech) than expressive language skills (vocabulary and the production of speech) and may have difficulty communicating and expressing themselves.Sep 8, 2020"

Klinefelter syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics

medlineplus.gov

.

 

[Girlnextdoor]

I thought so! Small wrists are also a symptom of Klinefelter Syndrome!
Here's "young Bradley" looking like poetry in motion, doing a big specky leap. Please notice his outstretched arm and his abnormally thin wrist (for a bloke) You can see the mark from where he wears his watch way up on his arm away from his wrist?

I'm wondering IF BRE has Kleinfelter, if he was ever properly diagnosed? Back when he was a young lad it was often missed, by the looks of this article.

"Klinefelter syndrome is a genetic condition affecting males, and it often isn't diagnosed until adulthood." BBM

Klinefelter syndrome - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

"wrists are so small, just like a female."

Symptoms may indicate genetic syndrome

[...] my shoulders are small, my chest has fatty tissue and looks like (I have) "man...

www.ctpost.com

 

[Likeamystery]

I thought so! Small wrists are also a symptom of Klinefelter Syndrome!
Here's "young Bradley" looking like poetry in motion, doing a big specky leap. Please notice his outstretched arm and his abnormally thin wrist (for a bloke) You can see the mark from where he wears his watch way up on his arm away from his wrist?

I'm wondering IF BRE has Kleinfelter, if he was ever properly diagnosed? Back when he was a young lad it was often missed, by the looks of this article.

"Klinefelter syndrome is a genetic condition affecting males, and it often isn't diagnosed until adulthood." BBM

Klinefelter syndrome - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

View attachment 992896

"wrists are so small, just like a female."

Symptoms may indicate genetic syndrome

[...] my shoulders are small, my chest has fatty tissue and looks like (I have) "man...

www.ctpost.com

Yes, BREs wrists are considerably small. He's arm and leg muscles don't look very big, like they're wasting. Most of the symptoms are interesting. The article suggests patients tend to be shy, quiet and undemanding.

The alleles (chromosomes) were mentioned in the court paperwork. BRE would probably realize by now he's got some sort of syndrome, but probably didn't know beforehand.

Manifestations of this disorder can be divided into physical symptoms, language issues and social development. When it comes to physical manifestations, you have already described many of them. Taller, less-muscular body, less facial and body hair, and broader hips are also common. Certain medical problems may happen in patients with XXY syndrome: autoimmune disorders, breast cancer, vein diseases, osteoporosis and tooth decay. Because their bodies don't make a lot of sperm, males with Klinefelter syndrome may be infertile. Language is also affected. Boys learn to read late and some may have some issues expressing themselves with words. As adults, XXY males may have a harder time doing work that involves reading and writing, but most hold jobs and have successful careers. Socially, patients with this disorder tend to be shy, quiet and undemanding, which does not stop them from having families, friends and fulfilling lives!

 

[ms finch]

So I had a chat with a friend who was checked out for Klinefelter Syndrome (doesn’t have it but he had a doctor who was determined to diagnose him that way for some reason). Things to look for:

- Tend to have problems growing beards due to the difference in hormones to an XY male. This is almost standard, apparently;

- Rarely does the hairline recede at all due again to the hormone differences;

- Hip structure tends to be more feminine than masculine;

- Longer legs; shorter torso - it’s the ratios here that are important and they are more in line with a woman’s;

- Reduced sex drive

There are many men who fit the physical structure of Klinefelters but don’t have it, apparently. In his case he is truly unusually tall and quite thin and has very long legs in comparison to his torso (this appears to be the doctor’s reason for obsessing over it). He also has the appearance of low muscle tone and his hip structure tends on the feminine side, along with having very small wrists (he can fit my bracelets).

(Quite amusing story actually, with him pointing out to the doctor that he was absolutely inconsistent with some of the attributes.)

 

[Girlnextdoor]

Here's serial killer Bobby Joe Long who had Klinefelter's XXY, he also had children. From my reading if it's picked up early enough testosterone can help development through puberty and that treatment can continue into adult life.

There's been quite a bit of debate about whether there's an increased frequency among criminal offenders, more specifically sex offenders who have Klinfelters.

Hmmm.. asked to use the bathroom
?? Where have we heard THAT before Kurve? And his MO was very similar to BRE. Wonder if BRE displayed his victims in a particular way? I know they were both covered with branches, but if I remember rightly both had an arm extended, and Paul Ferguson said the sites were "mirrors" of each other? Could BRE have read about this killer who was active in 1984 and copied him because he identified with his Kleinfelter Syndrome?

"When Long found a woman alone, he asked to use the bathroom, took out his "rape kit" and brutally r*ped and robbed the woman. These crimes were never prosecuted by the local California authorities, in part because the statute of limitations had already expired by the time he was caught.[6][7]:BBM
"Modus operandi
In 1984, while on probation for assault, Long began driving around, in a 1978 Dodge Magnum looking for victims in areas known for prostitution and in bars where women were found alone. Long claimed that his victims approached him, and he would persuade them to enter his car and took them to his apartment. Long would then bind the victims with rope and ligature collars he had fashioned, using a variety of rope knots. Long later confessed that he derived sadistic pleasure from the abduction, rape, and brutal murder of his victims, some of whom he strangled to death.[9]

Others he killed by slitting their throats or bludgeoning them. Long would then arrange his victims' bodies in unique positions, or "display." Of Long's 10 known victims, five of the women were identified as known prostitutes, two as exotic dancers."BBM

Bobby Joe Long - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[ms finch]

Hmmm.. asked to use the bathroom
?? Where have we heard THAT before Kurve? And his MO was very similar to BRE. Wonder if BRE displayed his victims in a particular way? I know they were both covered with branches, but if I remember rightly both had an arm extended, and Paul Ferguson said the sites were "mirrors" of each other? Could BRE have read about this killer who was active in 1984 and copied him because he identified with his Kleinfelter Syndrome?

"When Long found a woman alone, he asked to use the bathroom, took out his "rape kit" and brutally r*ped and robbed the woman. These crimes were never prosecuted by the local California authorities, in part because the statute of limitations had already expired by the time he was caught.[6][7]:BBM
"Modus operandi
In 1984, while on probation for assault, Long began driving around, in a 1978 Dodge Magnum looking for victims in areas known for prostitution and in bars where women were found alone. Long claimed that his victims approached him, and he would persuade them to enter his car and took them to his apartment. Long would then bind the victims with rope and ligature collars he had fashioned, using a variety of rope knots. Long later confessed that he derived sadistic pleasure from the abduction, rape, and brutal murder of his victims, some of whom he strangled to death.[9]

Others he killed by slitting their throats or bludgeoning them. Long would then arrange his victims' bodies in unique positions, or "display." Of Long's 10 known victims, five of the women were identified as known prostitutes, two as exotic dancers."BBM

Bobby Joe Long - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Someone else on here awhile ago (I read it when trying to get through all the CSK threads before posting) suggested that Edwards’ MO may have been to copy others. I thought that was fascinating.

He spent a lot of time online obsessing over some pretty sick things. It wouldn’t surprise me if he got some of his ideas from things he read.

 

[one eyed spy]

Someone else on here awhile ago (I read it when trying to get through all the CSK threads before posting) suggested that Edwards’ MO may have been to copy others. I thought that was fascinating.

He spent a lot of time online obsessing over some pretty sick things. It wouldn’t surprise me if he got some of his ideas from things he read.

Sure it was Edwards MO? It may have been, I don't recall it myself but that was certainly an idea being touted for a time by someone posting online but who appeared to have someone else in their sights for the CSK, who was also posting online & still is.

 

[ms finch]

Sure it was Edwards MO? It may have been, I don't recall it myself but that was certainly an idea being touted for a time by someone posting online but who appeared to have someone else in their sights for the CSK, who was also posting online & still is.

I am going off memory and I was reading through about a hundred pages at once so I may be misremembering or misinterpreting the post. It was definitely after Edwards’ arrest because I didn’t bother to go back further than that.

Either way, I think the application of it to Edwards is valid.

 

[sprockets]

WA legal bills rise for Clive Palmer, Claremont serial killer cases

Western Australia’s legal fight with mining magnate Clive Palmer over a stalled iron ore project has so far cost taxpayers more than $900,000 in fees, a parliamentary hearing has heard.

www.news.com.au

"... The estimates hearing also heard the long-running Claremont serial killer case had cost almost $12 million in just two years.
Bradley Robert Edwards, 51, was last month found guilty of murdering Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon, but was acquitted of killing Sarah Spiers, whose body has never been found.
Prosecutors spent $5.1 million in the previous financial year, while another $2.8 million was budgeted for this year.
A further $3.5 million was spent on Edwards’ Legal Aid defence and that figure is expected to increase for his sentencing. ..."

 

[Girlnextdoor]

Hmmm.. asked to use the bathroom
?? Where have we heard THAT before Kurve? And his MO was very similar to BRE. Wonder if BRE displayed his victims in a particular way? I know they were both covered with branches, but if I remember rightly both had an arm extended, and Paul Ferguson said the sites were "mirrors" of each other? Could BRE have read about this killer who was active in 1984 and copied him because he identified with his Kleinfelter Syndrome?

"When Long found a woman alone, he asked to use the bathroom, took out his "rape kit" and brutally r*ped and robbed the woman. These crimes were never prosecuted by the local California authorities, in part because the statute of limitations had already expired by the time he was caught.[6][7]:BBM
"Modus operandi
In 1984, while on probation for assault, Long began driving around, in a 1978 Dodge Magnum looking for victims in areas known for prostitution and in bars where women were found alone. Long claimed that his victims approached him, and he would persuade them to enter his car and took them to his apartment. Long would then bind the victims with rope and ligature collars he had fashioned, using a variety of rope knots. Long later confessed that he derived sadistic pleasure from the abduction, rape, and brutal murder of his victims, some of whom he strangled to death.[9]

Others he killed by slitting their throats or bludgeoning them. Long would then arrange his victims' bodies in unique positions, or "display." Of Long's 10 known victims, five of the women were identified as known prostitutes, two as exotic dancers."BBM

Bobby Joe Long - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The similarities just keep on coming (no pun intended!) Interesting also that Long had head injuries, after the later one (a motor bike accident) his violence and sexual obsession began. If BRE did have a car accident, could he also have suffered a head injury?

"For instance, in the case of Long, he fell off a swing and suffered his first of several head injuries at just age five. He was also mercilessly bullied at school when he developed breasts upon reaching puberty, due to a genetic disorder called Klinefelter syndrome. BBM

"While in the hospital, he began to have unpredictable and violent outbursts and developed a burgeoning obsession with sex. Even while in a body cast, Long managed to masturbate some five times a day while recovering in an attempt to relieve himself." BBM

Gotta give him 10 out of 10 for effort there!

 

[Likeamystery]

The similarities just keep on coming (no pun intended!) Interesting also that long had head injuries, after the later one (a motor bike accident) his violence and sexual obsession began. If BRE did have a car accident, could he also have suffered a head injury?

"For instance, in the case of Long, he fell off a swing and suffered his first of several head injuries at just age five. He was also mercilessly bullied at school when he developed breasts upon reaching puberty, due to a genetic disorder called Klinefelter syndrome. BBM

"While in the hospital, he began to have unpredictable and violent outbursts and developed a burgeoning obsession with sex. Even while in a body cast, Long managed to masturbate some five times a day while recovering in an attempt to relieve himself." BBM

Gotta give him 10 out of 10 for effort there!

Evidently David Birnie had a head injury, and that's when the problems started - according to his ex-wife KB. I don't suppose KB knew half of what he got up to.

 

[Kurve]

Please continue to Claremont Murders - The Bunker Part 2