BIGGUS 64
Premiership Player
I think that Lyon is right - you can't really quantify an intangible like "competitiveness", so lists like these are highly subjective.
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Analysis Competitive players
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I think that Lyon is right - you can't really quantify an intangible like "competitiveness", so lists like these are highly subjective.
- Thread starter
- #27
Yep. So where’s your list?
To play football there is one simple premise. Win the game! When I analyse losses there may be one or more reasons as to why we have lost.
Competitiveness is difficult to quantify in a game of football. How many times does a good team win the game with a good quarter of footy? Nothing to do with how hard you have been in the game. You’ve just been outclassed by a more skilled side.
I don’t want to ramble on but key points for me.
As a player you must be switched on from the start. It’s vital to beat your direct opponent early in the game. It gets inside your opponent’s head.
Maintain the effort. Don’t get ahead of yourself. Remember it’s not the end of the world if you lose a contest as long as you maintain the desire to win the next contest.
When you win the contest make it count. No use giving it back to the other side. Scoreboard pressure kills as well. Kick goals not behinds.
Be team oriented. Rarely does one player win the game. In fact individuals ruin team structure.
Lack of discipline is a momentum killer as well. Don’t give up the advantage through stupid acts.
I’m sure I could think of others however I’ll stop there.
Now think of the Carlton list and judge the players on what they do during a game. It’s not as simple as saying certain players are not competitive.
Competitiveness is difficult to quantify in a game of football. How many times does a good team win the game with a good quarter of footy? Nothing to do with how hard you have been in the game. You’ve just been outclassed by a more skilled side.
I don’t want to ramble on but key points for me.
As a player you must be switched on from the start. It’s vital to beat your direct opponent early in the game. It gets inside your opponent’s head.
Maintain the effort. Don’t get ahead of yourself. Remember it’s not the end of the world if you lose a contest as long as you maintain the desire to win the next contest.
When you win the contest make it count. No use giving it back to the other side. Scoreboard pressure kills as well. Kick goals not behinds.
Be team oriented. Rarely does one player win the game. In fact individuals ruin team structure.
Lack of discipline is a momentum killer as well. Don’t give up the advantage through stupid acts.
I’m sure I could think of others however I’ll stop there.
Now think of the Carlton list and judge the players on what they do during a game. It’s not as simple as saying certain players are not competitive.
gardiner stand
Premiership Player
- Banned
- #29
Fisher has competitiveness in spades just a bit harder to show it with his frame atm but it’s definitely there
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
- May 31, 2012
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Another potentially decent player butchered by a non-system and the cult of 'The Chosen Ones'.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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In my experience, most that do that have had a skin full at the time
thylacine60
Post-Human
- Banned
- #32
not dylan clown.........his dad.........
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
- May 31, 2012
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here ya go OP:
HAVES
Cripps - by the truck load
Doc - same as above
Simmo - too proud not to give it all his got - but never seen him hurt anyone - ever.
Fisher - natural lil mongrel lookout if he gets bigger
Curnow x 2 - both in different ways
Dow -put some size on him and watch him murder 'em
Williamson - natural
Bugg un proven in Blue
Newman - see above
my additions:
Kennedy has a big mean streak - watch him when he is fit .
LoB goes hard for a skinny runt
Polson goes hard - but doesn't usually know where he is going or how to get there
Harry is a sneaky mongrel - will develop into a gorilla in a few years
McGovern - mongrel runs in the family
Kreuzer - Humphrey isn't dirty but he is hard at it - most rucks think he is the toughest to play against over 4 quarters
Jones - fearless - I wish sometimes he didn't play like he was brainless too.
Plowman - very competitive
Thomas - fearless
Walsh - will be a champion player for Carlton
Staker - could be anything
Setterfield - should be a champion player if his body allows him.
I reckon you are wrong with:
Cuningham - confused by Bolton's lack of game plan - natural gun
Levi - I've seen him monster blokes - someone told him to pull his head in for some stoopid reason
Pickett - has got PLENTY you need to watch games
Marchbank - got plenty
Weitering - got even more
Garlett - started off mean and nasty then bunged his shoulder and the CLub bunged his treatment - lets see...
You maybe right with
Lang - none shown so far - but strikes a good pose at times
SPS - jury is out
Phillips - dunno
Murphy - preservation is teh mark of 'an ultimate professional' - also too small and too bunged up - but in better company now and might develop a late mean and nasty streak....
Chin up Bolton has plenty to work with.
HAVES
Cripps - by the truck load
Doc - same as above
Simmo - too proud not to give it all his got - but never seen him hurt anyone - ever.
Fisher - natural lil mongrel lookout if he gets bigger
Curnow x 2 - both in different ways
Dow -put some size on him and watch him murder 'em
Williamson - natural
Newman - see above
my additions:
Kennedy has a big mean streak - watch him when he is fit .
LoB goes hard for a skinny runt
Polson goes hard - but doesn't usually know where he is going or how to get there
Harry is a sneaky mongrel - will develop into a gorilla in a few years
McGovern - mongrel runs in the family
Kreuzer - Humphrey isn't dirty but he is hard at it - most rucks think he is the toughest to play against over 4 quarters
Jones - fearless - I wish sometimes he didn't play like he was brainless too.
Plowman - very competitive
Thomas - fearless
Walsh - will be a champion player for Carlton
Staker - could be anything
Setterfield - should be a champion player if his body allows him.
I reckon you are wrong with:
Cuningham - confused by Bolton's lack of game plan - natural gun
Levi - I've seen him monster blokes - someone told him to pull his head in for some stoopid reason
Pickett - has got PLENTY you need to watch games
Marchbank - got plenty
Weitering - got even more
Garlett - started off mean and nasty then bunged his shoulder and the CLub bunged his treatment - lets see...
You maybe right with
Lang - none shown so far - but strikes a good pose at times
SPS - jury is out
Phillips - dunno
Murphy - preservation is teh mark of 'an ultimate professional' - also too small and too bunged up - but in better company now and might develop a late mean and nasty streak....
Chin up Bolton has plenty to work with.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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HTF would I know - when his dad was playing fairy football for Carlton I was playing tight head front row in the game they play in heaven up in Shitney the home of beautiful wimmin, teh Opera hOse decent weather , surf beaches with warm water chikas in 'kinis and bogan kulcha - everywhere.
- Sep 26, 2004
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- #35
Kreuzer is a strange omission from the OP.
He's as competitive as it gets.
He's as competitive as it gets.
Yes: Cripps, Doc, Simpson, Fisher, Ed, Charlie, JSOS, Dow, Daisy
Most of the time: Kruezer, LOB, Levi, Weiters, Marchbank,
Sometimes: Murphy,
Need more: SPS,
I think with Cripps and Doc flying the flag, the others will step up. We all know Murph wasn’t like that so I expect a big change next year.
Most of the time: Kruezer, LOB, Levi, Weiters, Marchbank,
Sometimes: Murphy,
Need more: SPS,
I think with Cripps and Doc flying the flag, the others will step up. We all know Murph wasn’t like that so I expect a big change next year.
Like when on the bus?
If you think there is so much as a gram of this man that is not competitive...well, well I don't know what I'll do.
I think the premise of the thread is total bollocks.
It hinges on two things: that you can't measure competitiveness, and that some players have some intangible quality, a 'burning desire' to win contests that others don't.
The second part of that statement is a metaphor, and its useless. The idea that some players have some driving passion that helps them win contests is a fallacy. Every player out on the field wants to win. Some are vocal, chest-beating, aggressive. Others, like Bruce Doull, Kade Simpson, etc are soft spoken, quiet.
You can, and clubs do, measure competitiveness, through the proportion of contests a player wins (and it is one of the most important stats in the modern game). This ability in turn depends on a whole heap of tangible abilities and attributes: Physical fitness, strength, speed and agility. Ability to read the ball in flight, on the ground, and to read opponents actions. Reaction time. Hand-eye coordination. Technique is a huge part of this as well - knowing how, when, and why to use the body, hands, etc to best advantage, where to be positioned.
I think you could go through every player listed as 'Have Nots' in the OP and identify a clearly definable attribute that explains their lack of 'competitiveness':
- Cuningham: fitness, agility, reaction time, ability to read the ball and opponents
- Levi: agility, ability to read ball on the ground, technique
- Murphy: size, physical health/fitness,
- Pickett: ability to read the ball in flight and on the ground, reaction time, technique, strength
- Lang: agility, strength, ability to read the ball and opponents
- Marchbank: Physical fitness/health, strength, ability to read opponents, technique
- Weitering: physical fitness, strength, speed, agility, technique (hasn't adjusted from juniors to bigger and faster opponents)
- SPS: physical fitness, ability to read opponents, technique
- Garlett: strength, physical fitness, ability to read ball on ground, ability to read opponents, technique
- Phillips: agility, fitness, reaction time, ability to read ball in flight and ground,
That's ok - most players have weaknesses. Some will develop/improve. Some you can put in spots that address weaknesses (eg: don't play Philips as a small forward). Some just can't make it at AFL level but are bloody good at VFL level, etc.
There can be a mental aspect too, but it is much more situational - confidence and motivation. Motivation is so heavily dependent on context. Lots of players look soft in round 23 when you are getting thumped by 18 goals, and the body is worn down after a long year. Very few players look soft in the grand final. Confidence plays into this - it affects reaction times, affects technique, etc. But motivation and confidence aren't innate; they aren't something you can identify in a draftee and just plug in. Great players have confidence slumps, and go through the motions at times. Poor players catch lightning in a bottle and can be amongst the most motivated players on the list (and if motivation related to the ability to win contests, then Dylan Buckley would be a Brownlow medallist!).
It hinges on two things: that you can't measure competitiveness, and that some players have some intangible quality, a 'burning desire' to win contests that others don't.
The second part of that statement is a metaphor, and its useless. The idea that some players have some driving passion that helps them win contests is a fallacy. Every player out on the field wants to win. Some are vocal, chest-beating, aggressive. Others, like Bruce Doull, Kade Simpson, etc are soft spoken, quiet.
You can, and clubs do, measure competitiveness, through the proportion of contests a player wins (and it is one of the most important stats in the modern game). This ability in turn depends on a whole heap of tangible abilities and attributes: Physical fitness, strength, speed and agility. Ability to read the ball in flight, on the ground, and to read opponents actions. Reaction time. Hand-eye coordination. Technique is a huge part of this as well - knowing how, when, and why to use the body, hands, etc to best advantage, where to be positioned.
I think you could go through every player listed as 'Have Nots' in the OP and identify a clearly definable attribute that explains their lack of 'competitiveness':
- Cuningham: fitness, agility, reaction time, ability to read the ball and opponents
- Levi: agility, ability to read ball on the ground, technique
- Murphy: size, physical health/fitness,
- Pickett: ability to read the ball in flight and on the ground, reaction time, technique, strength
- Lang: agility, strength, ability to read the ball and opponents
- Marchbank: Physical fitness/health, strength, ability to read opponents, technique
- Weitering: physical fitness, strength, speed, agility, technique (hasn't adjusted from juniors to bigger and faster opponents)
- SPS: physical fitness, ability to read opponents, technique
- Garlett: strength, physical fitness, ability to read ball on ground, ability to read opponents, technique
- Phillips: agility, fitness, reaction time, ability to read ball in flight and ground,
That's ok - most players have weaknesses. Some will develop/improve. Some you can put in spots that address weaknesses (eg: don't play Philips as a small forward). Some just can't make it at AFL level but are bloody good at VFL level, etc.
There can be a mental aspect too, but it is much more situational - confidence and motivation. Motivation is so heavily dependent on context. Lots of players look soft in round 23 when you are getting thumped by 18 goals, and the body is worn down after a long year. Very few players look soft in the grand final. Confidence plays into this - it affects reaction times, affects technique, etc. But motivation and confidence aren't innate; they aren't something you can identify in a draftee and just plug in. Great players have confidence slumps, and go through the motions at times. Poor players catch lightning in a bottle and can be amongst the most motivated players on the list (and if motivation related to the ability to win contests, then Dylan Buckley would be a Brownlow medallist!).
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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Worth showing again - if for no other reason to underline how much was achieved by Ratten - with so little compared to what we have now. Kreuzer ended Jolly's career btw with a legal mongrel crunching of a few ribs in a tackle full of menace and meaning - that is competitiveness. Can't wait till opposition players start looking over their shoulders worrying about every Carlton players smashing them in a tackle- perceived pressure is a vital component of getting on top of any opposition. Carlton as a Club has earned a reputation for softness - time to reverse the rep and get back to being feared and therefore respected.
thylacine60
Post-Human
- Banned
- #43
I'll be there to shake his hand at the end of his career and thank him for all the heart he showed, the courage, the commitment, the way he brought those lesser lights around him into the game. Then I'll stand back while others tell him his stats show he wasn't a very good player.
First line won me.
Every time I think I’m out they drag me back in.
thylacine60
Post-Human
- Banned
- #46
kreuzer = pea heart
If they make a movie...
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Not after his recent heart enlargement surgery
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