The Law Conscription/National Service

[Grand Uncle Horace]

We should have allied with the Germans in WW1, or the Commies in Korea and Vietnam?

We had no business in WW1 which was a ruling class country. My family was actively opposed to conscription and the War.

Ditto Korea and Vietnam. I was pro Vietnam by the end of that war. Liberal Party war mongers had begged the Seppos to formally invite us in to that ‘party’.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

How would conscription help then?

for control of the local population as is the norm.

Armies are usually the way nations mop up unemployment among the not so smart and sociopathic folks.

 

[Freomaniac]

Without allies, suppressing our air force and Navy wouldn't take too long for a country like China.

We'd have other regional powers (Indonesia etc) sorted on our own. They don't have the logistics to project, deploy and sustain a force onto mainland Australia.

China beats us with sheer weight of numbers.

Of course, that's where the Seppos come in.

Couldn't Indonesia beat Australia In sheer weight of numbers?

What's the population of Indonesia? 200 million?

 

[rank and file]

Given Trump is giving NATO the finger and saying that unless they up their defence spending, they can eff off in terms of expecting US support, we'll need to up our spending to 3-5% of GDP - currently at 2%. That means finding another $25b - $75b annually.

No Australia in NATO,don't have to find FA billions.

China doesn't invade,they'll take Taiwan when they're ready and Australia will do nothing.
No need for conscription.

Trump playing games appealing to voters who are losing interest as there country bleeds billions funding wars.

 

[Captivating]

why would China bother tho. We already sell them our resources for sweet FA. Besides that we have nothing they want.

People thought that about PNG and Soloman Islands too, and yet here we are.

 

[faible]

They wouldn't mind our land.

Meh, easier to snatch land from around China than to blockade, invade and occupy Australia via air and sea thousands of kilometres away.

There's a fair chunk of Russia right on their border they could go after, and once controlled.

 

[faible]

People thought that about PNG and Soloman Islands too, and yet here we are.

They've invaded PNG and the Solomons?

 

[Malifice]

Ditto Korea and Vietnam. I was pro Vietnam by the end of that war. Liberal Party war mongers had begged the Seppos to formally invite us in to that ‘party’.

You dont think stopping the spread of Communism was worth it, but stopping Fascists (WW2) was?

 

[Freomaniac]

You dont think stopping the spread of Communism was worth it, but stopping Fascists (WW2) was?

And you think democracy worked when George W bush was voted in?

ever since he got in as president, the standard has dropped. How come Donald trump got elected?

 

[Malifice]

And you think democracy worked when George W bush was voted in?

Democracy isn't in opposition to Communism (although Communist regimes invariably suppress Democracy).

Liberal Capitalism is in opposition to Communism.

How come Donald trump got elected?

The same reason Brexit happened. Blue collar working class people, who increasingly feel left behind by globalism, turned to a snake.

I don't blame Trump, or his supporters for Trump. I blame the Democrats. It's people that should be voting for them, voting for Trump.

Same deal here in Oz with the 'Howards battlers' demographic (that also voted for Abbott). Blue collar working class that have every reason to vote for labor, barring their often conservative social values, and who feel that the center left parties care more about minorities, LGBTI+ causes and woke shit and not enough about their interests (even though it's not actually true).

 

[Malifice]

For those people saying we shouldn't have tried to stop the Russians (and Chinese) in Vietnam and Korea, do you also think we should sit back and let them annex Ukraine and cease support for the Ukrainians as well?

Grand Uncle Horace

 

[Freomaniac]

Democracy isn't in opposition to Communism (although Communist regimes invariably suppress Democracy).

Liberal Capitalism is in opposition to Communism.



The same reason Brexit happened. Blue collar working class people, who increasingly feel left behind by globalism, turned to a snake.

I don't blame Trump, or his supporters for Trump. I blame the Democrats. It's people that should be voting for them, voting for Trump.

Same deal here in Oz with the 'Howards battlers' demographic (that also voted for Abbott). Blue collar working class that have every reason to vote for labor, barring their often conservative social values, and who feel that the center left parties care more about minorities, LGBTI+ causes and woke s**t and not enough about their interests (even though it's not actually true).

and good on the middle class for voting Trump in 2016. lol.

And I am Sure Tough man Tony Abbott was a memorable Prime minister.

He wanted to Shirt front Vladimir Putin, didn't he? We All know how that resulted. lol

As an Australian, we have less human rights now as we had 20-30 years ago.

I would have no Issues having Putin as our Prime minister. lol

 

[Freomaniac]

More chance seeing Lady Gaga line up a full forward for the Crows in 24 than me going overseas to fight in one of the many wars that barely have anything to do with us.

Utter madness.

How did we get to this point where that article could even be posted. Ridiculous

I agree....

there is nothing worth fighting or even dying for these days.

 

[Freomaniac]

Democracy isn't in opposition to Communism (although Communist regimes invariably suppress Democracy).

Liberal Capitalism is in opposition to Communism.



The same reason Brexit happened. Blue collar working class people, who increasingly feel left behind by globalism, turned to a snake.

I don't blame Trump, or his supporters for Trump. I blame the Democrats. It's people that should be voting for them, voting for Trump.

Same deal here in Oz with the 'Howards battlers' demographic (that also voted for Abbott). Blue collar working class that have every reason to vote for labor, barring their often conservative social values, and who feel that the center left parties care more about minorities, LGBTI+ causes and woke s**t and not enough about their interests (even though it's not actually true).

Also I want your opinion on Bob Katter....

Would he make a good Prime minister? lol

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

You dont think stopping the spread of Communism was worth it, but stopping Fascists (WW2) was?

you seem to have an issue with Communism..

 

[Episode IV]

For those people saying we shouldn't have tried to stop the Russians (and Chinese) in Vietnam and Korea, do you also think we should sit back and let them annex Ukraine and cease support for the Ukrainians as well?

Grand Uncle Horace

I don't think you can make too many comparisons between those wars. Completely different situations and motivations.

For the record, I'm with Horace on that one, Vietnam was a ridiculous thing to become involved in, and even more so to use conscripted soldiers to fight. Same goes for Korea, although to the best of my knowledge conscripts weren't actually used to do any fighting in that one.
I'm not denigrating Australia soldiers in any way by saying that, conscripted or otherwise, and I have to give at least a nod to the idea that involvement in any war serves at least one purpose, which can be summed up in one word without further explanation - experience.

I'm saying that, in my opinion, Australia had no business being in either Korea or Vietnam, and I could list a few other conflicts we've been involved in post-Word War two as well.

With regard to Ukraine, you didn't qualify "ceasing support" at all, did you mean military or humanitarian aid, or both?

 

[Malifice]

and good on the middle class for voting Trump in 2016. lol.

What? Are you serious?

He's been an unmitigated disaster for not only the USA, but also Australia and the world (barring Russia).

As an Australian, we have less human rights now as we had 20-30 years ago.

30 years ago it was still a crime to be homosexual, let alone the fact same sex couples dudes couldn't marry. Victoria didnt yet have its human rights charter. As a whole, we had only just had our second Female State/ Territory premier, and still had not yet had a Female PM. Marital rape was still lawful in many Australian jurisdictions (South Australia was the first to outlaw the practice in 1976), and women were barred from most jobs in the military. The Federal Sex discrimination Act had only just come into force in 1985.

No fault divorce was only legalized in 1975. Capital punishment was still in effect in WA till 1984.

The NDIS didnt exist, and the Disability discrimination Act of 1992 had only just come into effect, the same year Mabo was handed down by the High Court affirming the existence of Native title.

What rights have we lost over the past 20-30 years?

I would have no Issues having Putin as our Prime minister.

What the ****?

 

[Malifice]

you seem to have an issue with Communism..

I do. Any sane person does.

It's just behind fascism as a steaming pile of tyrannical unitary party genocidal horseshit.

List of communist states - Wikipedia

Above is a list of all Communist States that are or have ever been. Literally scores of them.

Pick one that wasn't (or isn't) a tyrannical unitary party genocidal shithole.

Or save yourself some time, because there isn't a State that isn't (or wasn't) a tyrannical unitary party shithole on that list.

 

[Malifice]

Australia had no business being in either Korea or Vietnam

It was (and remains) in our national interest to be strong allies with the USA, and for our military to be able to work seamlessly with the Yanks military, with full interoperability.

They're the worlds largest economy, and the worlds largest military, and the worlds premier innovators and inventors with a cultural impact that cant be denied.

We have a free trade agreement, a hugely favorable public opinion directed towards Australians, a military alliance (and a favored one at that), access to (extensive) American intelligence via the Five Eyes agreement, a special visa category all to our own and more.

You think China was bullying us bad a few years ago? Imagine what they would have been doing without that US alliance.

With regard to Ukraine, you didn't qualify "ceasing support" at all, did you mean military or humanitarian aid, or both?

Choose your poison.

The Allies of WW2 tried appeasement with Hitler first remember. How did that work out?

 

[ferball]

They wouldn't mind our land.

Maybe the farmland and its produce but I don't think they want to take over the country and live here.

 

[ferball]

Couldn't Indonesia beat Australia In sheer weight of numbers?

What's the population of Indonesia? 200 million?

But how do they get here? The north of Australia is huge and either incredibly hot and dry or hot and wet. It would be a logistical nightmare to invade thru the top end.

 

[ferball]

People thought that about PNG and Soloman Islands too, and yet here we are.

Sorry? Has China invaded PNG and the Solomons?

I must have missed that.

 

[ferball]

And you think democracy worked when George W bush was voted in?

ever since he got in as president, the standard has dropped. How come Donald trump got elected?

He didn't actually get voted in, except by the electoral college. He literally stole that election. Imagine if he hadn't. 9/11 might not have happened or it might have been prevented.

 

[faible]

Couldn't Indonesia beat Australia In sheer weight of numbers?

What's the population of Indonesia? 200 million?

Their numbers don't count for much if they're stuck across an ocean from us.

Geographical isolation is by far our biggest advantage.

 

[Episode IV]

It was (and remains) in our national interest to be strong allies with the USA, and for our military to be able to work seamlessly with the Yanks military, with full interoperability.

They're the worlds largest economy, and the worlds largest military, and the worlds premier innovators and inventors with a cultural impact that cant be denied.

We have a free trade agreement, a hugely favorable public opinion directed towards Australians, a military alliance (and a favored one at that), access to (extensive) American intelligence via the Five Eyes agreement, a special visa category all to our own and more.

You think China was bullying us bad a few years ago? Imagine what they would have been doing without that US alliance.

Yes, I know. I'm not disagreeing with you on any of that, on the surface level.

It's a very difficult question, Malifice.
I don't think I could write a short post in response.

I'm loathe to use the worn metaphor of a bar fight, but I'm going to anyway.
The Australian character is (or has been) one of helping out your mates when they get into a fight, regardless of circumstances. It's a part of the national psyche.
There a times, though, when one should sit back, think about the situation, and ask whether or not your mate has gotten himself into (or started) something he shouldn't have, and it might be a better idea to just make sure he doesn't get too badly hurt, rather than blindly rush in and take on all comers.

It doesn't mean you're going to abandon your mates. It merely means that sometimes, a lesson might be in order, even if it might result in a bloody nose.

The Allies of WW2 tried appeasement with Hitler first remember. How did that work out?

I think there are many factors to be considered in the modern situation than simple comparisons between Hitler and Putin would do service to.
Which is to say that "appeasement" is a word used to reduce the entire situation to a level the general public can understand and sympathise with. It's an oversimplification.

I already know we disagree on the causes of World War Two, we've been here before.
My personal belief is that World War One was the single, most disastrous point in the history of Western Civilisation. It set the West back decades, if not centuries.
I'm including the immediate aftermath in that assessment.