Cummins Overrated?

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Black Diamond said:
Go on believing this despite all of the evidence that it was going on for ages. The whole team including the coach knew and supported it.

CA have successfully covered it up since.



Far closer to the reality is that only three of them took the blame.
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Evidence is facts, like it being caught on camera. Your guesswork doesn't count as evidence.
 
Teen Wolf said:
The evidence is clear that Smith, Warner and Bancroft are such bozos, they were guaranteed to get caught cheating as soon as they attempted it.
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Do you honestly believe that was the first time they had attempted such a thing?

A lot went on after the 2015 Hobart test.

So the "it was going on for ages" horseshit makes about as much sense as your description of Cummins as "a good bloke... and also a liar who hung his teammates out to dry".
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Cummins, like all of them, is just part of the cover-up and toeing the line. Multiple things can be true at once. They aren’t all either “good blokes” or “shit blokes”.
 

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gordo2016 said:
I realise that but what I don't understand is if they had been doing it for a long time , why wasn't it picked up on camera?
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Because they had a good strategy for doing it.

A more senior player wasn’t able to handle it that day, and it ended up falling to Bancroft who had not done it before.

There was a lot of scrutiny on the Australian team leaders that day. They were being watched very closely.
 
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Will be one of the all time great Australian bowlers by the time he finishes up, and whatever his tactical shortcomings, is clearly a brilliant leader off the field. Anyone who has met Pat will tell you he is a terrific bloke and couldn’t be happier for the success he has led us to.

Unfortunately no matter how great his achievements as a bowler and captain and no matter how great he is as a bloke, there just isn’t that warm fuzzy feeling towards him among the Australian public. If you cast your mind back to just before the JL saga kicked off, Patty was absolutely loved by everyone. It’s just a shame that episode (and the subsequent Alinta Energy bit, which wasn’t great timing) will continue to dog him in the mind of the average punter. He's just not going to be as loved as a Lillee, Chappell, Border, Warne, McGrath or Ponting is, even though he probably will deserve to be once his time is up.

Mind you, it’s mostly casual cricket fans that watch cricket for two weeks per year that feel this way, but that is a bloody large segment of the population.
 
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eltrain said:
Will be one of the all time great Australian bowlers by the time he finishes up, and whatever his tactical shortcomings, is clearly a brilliant leader off the field. Anyone who has met Pat will tell you he is a terrific bloke and couldn’t be happier for the success he has led us to.

Unfortunately no matter how great his achievements as a bowler and captain and no matter how great he is as a bloke, there just isn’t that warm fuzzy feeling towards him among the Australian public. If you cast your mind back to just before the JL saga kicked off, Patty was absolutely loved by everyone. It’s just a shame that episode (and the subsequent Alinta Energy bit, which wasn’t great timing) will continue to dog him in the mind of the average punter.

Mind you, it’s mostly casual cricket fans that watch cricket for two weeks per year that feel this way, but that is a bloody large segment of the population.
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The Langer saga was largely CA’s doing anyway, being too weak to just sack him when it clearly had to be done. Cummins handled himself admirably through that.

Hayden, Johnson and other past players continue to embarrass themselves with their carry-on.
 
Black Diamond said:
The Langer saga was largely CA’s doing anyway, being too weak to just sack him when it clearly had to be done. Cummins handled himself admirably through that.

Hayden, Johnson and other past players continue to embarrass themselves with their carry-on.
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Hayden seems like a bloke who's never quite found his place post playing career, he was on the CA board for a bit, he's been in and out of commentary boxes, he's tried his hand at coaching and never quite found his niche. I guess people can draw their own conclusions from this.
 
Gough said:
Hayden seems like a bloke who's never quite found his place post playing career, he was on the CA board for a bit, he's been in and out of commentary boxes, he's tried his hand at coaching and never quite found his niche. I guess people can draw their own conclusions from this.
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Could be on to something. Hadn’t thought about this way.
 
Gough said:
Hayden seems like a bloke who's never quite found his place post playing career, he was on the CA board for a bit, he's been in and out of commentary boxes, he's tried his hand at coaching and never quite found his niche. I guess people can draw their own conclusions from this.
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Website designer?

:drunk:
 
Gough said:
Hayden seems like a bloke who's never quite found his place post playing career, he was on the CA board for a bit, he's been in and out of commentary boxes, he's tried his hand at coaching and never quite found his niche. I guess people can draw their own conclusions from this.
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There was a video going around this week in which Ricky Ponting said he didn't get his driver's licence until he was 26.

These guys don't lead normal lives, so it's not unexpected that he doesn't conform to a normal working life of one job/career once they stop playing cricket.
 
Black Diamond said:
The Alinta Energy comments and his position in particular.

I disagree or have concerns with the climate orthodoxy. I also wonder if he considered the broader impact of these comments. Perhaps he would carry on as a well remunerated sportsman. What is the impact on the back-office staff? How is their salary paid?
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Okay, then say that you disagree with his position on climate change. Why say woke? It’s such a meaningless catchphrase that certain sections of the media try to use to push people with legitimate political or social opinions into the margins with more extreme points of view. Also does one point of view justify the comment “woke stuff”?

But does his opinion regarding that issue really matter here? Matty Hayden use to cross himself on the field all the time, I’m not a fan of the Catholic Church but I’ll still admire him as a cricketer and supported him while he had the Aussie shirt on.
 
Gough said:
Hayden seems like a bloke who's never quite found his place post playing career, he was on the CA board for a bit, he's been in and out of commentary boxes, he's tried his hand at coaching and never quite found his niche. I guess people can draw their own conclusions from this.
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When you listen to him commentate he strikes me as a guy who doesn’t actually understand the game that well. I think he’s one of those players who was so good that he could belt anyone around, any time, any place, that the need for astute tactics was never really there.

He’s very different to someone like Ponting when every time he speaks about the game you want to listen because he’s giving you insight you hadn’t heard before.

eltrain said:
Unfortunately no matter how great his achievements as a bowler and captain and no matter how great he is as a bloke, there just isn’t that warm fuzzy feeling towards him among the Australian public. If you cast your mind back to just before the JL saga kicked off, Patty was absolutely loved by everyone. It’s just a shame that episode (and the subsequent Alinta Energy bit, which wasn’t great timing) will continue to dog him in the mind of the average punter. He's just not going to be as loved as a Lillee, Chappell, Border, Warne, McGrath or Ponting is, even though he probably will deserve to be once his time is up.
Click to expand...

The thing is Cummins has carried himself through the Langer saga exceptionally well. It was CA that handled it poorly.

Cummins is captain did the right thing and stood up for his players and what he felt they needed at the time in terms of coaches style. I think the results speak for themselves that he was right that the team needed to move away from Langer’s approach towards McDonald’s.

CA should have been more direct and upfront with Langer which may have worked out better. That being said, Langer’s carry on indicates that no matter how he lost the job, he wasn’t going to take it well.

Since then Langer has taken multiple pot shots at Cummins in the media, as has his mates (I’m sure if Langer wanted that to stop he’d be on the phone pretty quickly about it). Cummins has had multiple chances where he could have fired back, either about Langer’s coaching, or the success the team has had without him, but hasn’t. Yet Cummins is in the wrong in all this?

Some people in the media are out to get Pat, and it’s sad that a lot of the cricket public, casual or not, have got sucked in by it. I even remember reading some of the comments on an article where Cummins said that getting back to cricket after losing his mum was tough. A scary percentage of them were even bagging him for that.

He’s in our best all time XI, and although he tactically might be lacking a little, his captaincy record is outstanding. It’s time Australia got off his back.
 

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Soggy2112 said:
Okay, then say that you disagree with his position on climate change. Why say woke? It’s such a meaningless catchphrase that certain sections of the media try to use to push people with legitimate political or social opinions into the margins with more extreme points of view. Also does one point of view justify the comment “woke stuff”?

But does his opinion regarding that issue really matter here? Matty Hayden use to cross himself on the field all the time, I’m not a fan of the Catholic Church but I’ll still admire him as a cricketer and supported him while he had the Aussie shirt on.
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It's a compliment. "Woke" is the new "SJW" in that the RWNJ's use it as an insult because they don't have the brain capacity to understand what it actually means.
 
What I never understood with the whole Langer saga is that past players have consistently downplayed the role of the coach and emphasized the importance of the captain. Warne used to say that it's the "Captain's team" with the coach playing a secondary player management role. Likewise Ian Chappell has said similar things. The prevailing idea is that cricketers perform best when they coach themselves and develop their own game.

Langer comes in to run the whole show during a period of turmoil to reset the culture. He did an admirable job at this albeit acting like an overly emotive, overly controlling nutcase at times. After a few years, the team makes a call that they want to define the culture and environment of the team, led by Cummins, and accept responsibility for performance. A coach - McDonald - fits this ethos perfectly. He takes a back seat, gives freedom to players to play to their strengths and gives the players confidence in themselves individually and collectively and yet people still take pot shots at Cummins and the team.

So what do people want? A team that is wholly in service of a coach or a team that defines their own destiny?

Cricket Australia should have shown some spine and sacked Langer to take the heat off the players. But they didn't which forced the players to have to justify why this person didn't fit the environment they wanted to cultivate.

It's the Captain's team. The coach is there to support them not define them. It's not AFL but even in AFL the modern approach is empowering the leaders to drive the team. All the great teams in recent years have had this model of leadership.
 
Soggy2112 said:
When you listen to him commentate he strikes me as a guy who doesn’t actually understand the game that well. I think he’s one of those players who was so good that he could belt anyone around, any time, any place, that the need for astute tactics was never really there.

He’s very different to someone like Ponting when every time he speaks about the game you want to listen because he’s giving you insight you hadn’t heard before.



The thing is Cummins has carried himself through the Langer saga exceptionally well. It was CA that handled it poorly.

Cummins is captain did the right thing and stood up for his players and what he felt they needed at the time in terms of coaches style. I think the results speak for themselves that he was right that the team needed to move away from Langer’s approach towards McDonald’s.

CA should have been more direct and upfront with Langer which may have worked out better. That being said, Langer’s carry on indicates that no matter how he lost the job, he wasn’t going to take it well.

Since then Langer has taken multiple pot shots at Cummins in the media, as has his mates (I’m sure if Langer wanted that to stop he’d be on the phone pretty quickly about it). Cummins has had multiple chances where he could have fired back, either about Langer’s coaching, or the success the team has had without him, but hasn’t. Yet Cummins is in the wrong in all this?

Some people in the media are out to get Pat, and it’s sad that a lot of the cricket public, casual or not, have got sucked in by it. I even remember reading some of the comments on an article where Cummins said that getting back to cricket after losing his mum was tough. A scary percentage of them were even bagging him for that.

He’s in our best all time XI, and although he tactically might be lacking a little, his captaincy record is outstanding. It’s time Australia got off his back.
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Cummins' record sits him in the elite tier of Australian cricket. He often stands up in the big moments and goes about it in a calm and composed manner. The players love and respect him!

If he wasn't crippled by injuries earlier in his career he could have given McGrath a nudge. Even so, he'll likely finish his career as taking the second most wickets for an Australian fast bowler in test cricket.

I wish we appreciated Cummins and this team more than we do. We have been blessed to watch this side as the 2010s were very up and down. The 2020s thus far has been an absolute success. WTC, Ashes, World Cups(t20 and ODI).

Edit: in the top 20 wicket takers for Australia in test cricket history only McGrath has a better average (21.64 vs 22.85). Elite.
 
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Black Diamond said:
The Alinta Energy comments and his position in particular.

I disagree or have concerns with the climate orthodoxy. I also wonder if he considered the broader impact of these comments. Perhaps he would carry on as a well remunerated sportsman. What is the impact on the back-office staff? How is their salary paid?
Click to expand...

Both Alinta and CA have come out and said that Cummin's position had absolutely no impact on their decision not to renew the sponsorship deal. In other words, it had no flow-on impact to the salaries of back-office staff.

So when we eliminate that argument... your issue basically boils down to having a different position on climate change? Whether you personally agree with the science or not, it's widely accepted by scientists and generally accepted by most politicians and everyday Australians. So you are effectively accusing Cummin's of being "woke" for holding a mainstream opinion. It really doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
Soggy2112 said:
Okay, then say that you disagree with his position on climate change. Why say woke? It’s such a meaningless catchphrase that certain sections of the media try to use to push people with legitimate political or social opinions into the margins with more extreme points of view. Also does one point of view justify the comment “woke stuff”?

But does his opinion regarding that issue really matter here? Matty Hayden use to cross himself on the field all the time, I’m not a fan of the Catholic Church but I’ll still admire him as a cricketer and supported him while he had the Aussie shirt on.
Click to expand...

I have made it pretty clear in this thread that I like Cummins. Even in the post you quote, for example.

We can argue around the margins of a term like woke. Point is this off-field stuff including stances taken in certain issues are impactful as a captain. There is no shortage of Australians who disagree with his position. Statistically, this would include some of his teammates. I don’t think it is good to go there in public.

Tyberious Funk said:
Both Alinta and CA have come out and said that Cummin's position had absolutely no impact on their decision not to renew the sponsorship deal. In other words, it had no flow-on impact to the salaries of back-office staff.

So when we eliminate that argument... your issue basically boils down to having a different position on climate change? Whether you personally agree with the science or not, it's widely accepted by scientists and generally accepted by most politicians and everyday Australians. So you are effectively accusing Cummin's of being "woke" for holding a mainstream opinion. It really doesn't make a lot of sense.
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It is great they said his comments didn’t impact the sponsorship.

Unless he was assured of this before he said what he said, my point stands.
 
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Foucault1989 said:
What I never understood with the whole Langer saga is that past players have consistently downplayed the role of the coach and emphasized the importance of the captain. Warne used to say that it's the "Captain's team" with the coach playing a secondary player management role. Likewise Ian Chappell has said similar things. The prevailing idea is that cricketers perform best when they coach themselves and develop their own game.

Langer comes in to run the whole show during a period of turmoil to reset the culture. He did an admirable job at this albeit acting like an overly emotive, overly controlling nutcase at times. After a few years, the team makes a call that they want to define the culture and environment of the team, led by Cummins, and accept responsibility for performance. A coach - McDonald - fits this ethos perfectly. He takes a back seat, gives freedom to players to play to their strengths and gives the players confidence in themselves individually and collectively and yet people still take pot shots at Cummins and the team.

So what do people want? A team that is wholly in service of a coach or a team that defines their own destiny?

Cricket Australia should have shown some spine and sacked Langer to take the heat off the players. But they didn't which forced the players to have to justify why this person didn't fit the environment they wanted to cultivate.

It's the Captain's team. The coach is there to support them not define them. It's not AFL but even in AFL the modern approach is empowering the leaders to drive the team. All the great teams in recent years have had this model of leadership.
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Added to all this the past era guys who have been so critical of current team are same generation who knifed the successful long term coach in bobby simpson so they could bring in their old mate marsh as coach, its just typical pulling up ladder behind you stuff from ponting era guys they loved player power when it suited them and as soon as they retired they switch and say well **** the current players the guys from our era should still hold all power in side.
 
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Cummins stopped doing ads for a Hong Kong mining company. Bradman lobbied the PM to stop increasing the minimum wage.

Accusations of indifference to the "back-office staff" belong in a thread about a different Australian captain.
 
Black Diamond said:
I have made it pretty clear in this thread that I like Cummins. Even in the post you quote, for example.

We can argue around the margins of a term like woke. Point is this off-field stuff including stances taken in certain issues are impactful as a captain. There is no shortage of Australians who disagree with his position. Statistically, this would include some of his teammates. I don’t think it is good to go there in public.
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Sorry, I get frustrated when people throw the term woke around because it has completely poisoned any social or political discourse in this country.

I get the idea that the captain shouldn’t be presenting his views as those of the Australian cricket team, but I don’t think he’s done that. I think he’s been quite clear that he’s sharing his views. What he did was to me similar to when Uzzie chose to not have the VB logo on his shirt.
 

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