Danger Game Style 2011: Over the Back

[RPNT]

This isn't a roast or a rant. Disappointed at the result tonight, especially considering we had an extra player for almost four quarters with Porplyzia off the ground. But it's round one. Still big upside for the Hawks.

Noticed tonight that we gave up alot of easy goals tonight with the crows kicking long over our version of the "press". After half time, every single time an Adelaide player booted the ball 50-60m out of defence, my heart was in my mouth.

It's one thing to have a press, and I understand that if the other team can't get through it, we win the game, plain and simple. But geez, when a team really gets through the press against Hawthorn, man, it seems about a 95% chance of being a goal. Not just a score, a goal

Team surges long over the press, gain possession, look inboard, finds loose player in the corridor, this kick usually results in a mark/shot at goal from within 30m of goal directly in front.

Surely we have to maintain SOME semblance of a structure down back when the press is broken through? At least if there is some structure, we can hold them up or push them wide, at least make it somewhat difficult to score goals. We give up far too many goals over the back from inside 30m with little to no pressure.

Still having nightmares of Stokes over the back in the Geelong game last year, or plenty of the goals booted by whoever the Freo players were in the final we lost last season...

Hawks need to watch this...

 

[Glebehawk]

100% agree as would anyone who saw that game.

Can't remember ever seeing another team burnt so badly by that kind of rebound before. It's the main reason they got back into the match and once their tails were up...well they beat us in most areas by the end.

poor coaching.

 

[THEHIGHFLYINGHAWKER]

to be honest... maybe clarkson is overrated?

 

[TAITA]

This isn't a roast or a rant. Disappointed at the result tonight, especially considering we had an extra player for almost four quarters with Porplyzia off the ground. But it's round one. Still big upside for the Hawks.

Noticed tonight that we gave up alot of easy goals tonight with the crows kicking long over our version of the "press". After half time, every single time an Adelaide player booted the ball 50-60m out of defence, my heart was in my mouth.

It's one thing to have a press, and I understand that if the other team can't get through it, we win the game, plain and simple. But geez, when a team really gets through the press against Hawthorn, man, it seems about a 95% chance of being a goal. Not just a score, a goal

Team surges long over the press, gain possession, look inboard, finds loose player in the corridor, this kick usually results in a mark/shot at goal from within 30m of goal directly in front.

Surely we have to maintain SOME semblance of a structure down back when the press is broken through? At least if there is some structure, we can hold them up or push them wide, at least make it somewhat difficult to score goals. We give up far too many goals over the back from inside 30m with little to no pressure.

Still having nightmares of Stokes over the back in the Geelong game last year, or plenty of the goals booted by whoever the Freo players were in the final we lost last season...

Hawks need to watch this...

You can't have both.

Not many teams will win games relying on not having players putting themselves in the position to contest.

We didn't make the most of our opportunities, subbed our best player off, and ran out of puff.

Pretty simple really.

We live to fight another day.

 

[BrownPearHookers]

Hope you dont mind me intruding.

Watched your game vs the Cows, you are right when they got over your zone they looked like scoring each time, Just food for thought, maybe you defenders are not quiet of the quality of collingwoods to pull this game plan off.
Another thing I noticed was how congested your forward line was, I would have thought you guys would like it much more open for Buddy and Roughy.
maybe Clarkson has it up side down, Maybe you are better flooding the defense and opening up your own forward line, what are your thoughts?

Rioli was quiet something by the way, skill was as good as gets.

 

[71" GF]

Same sh$t different day,Clarkson was again outcoached ,our disposal was crap and we remain the most frustrating team to support in the AFL. We looked nothing like a team that some experts say will be challenging Collingwood for the flag come September.Bruce was pathetic! why did we bother?? I know it was only the first round but the same thing happened last year and before we knew it ,5 rounds had gone and we barely had won a game.If there isn't dramatic changes i doubt Clarkson will last the season. Leigh Matthews is available and should be on the radar.When we get hurt so much on the rebound with easy goals to the opposition as is the topic of this thread ,that is a fundamental coaching error.

 

[grizzlym]

Hope you dont mind me intruding.

Watched your game vs the Cows, you are right when they got over your zone they looked like scoring each time, Just food for thought, maybe you defenders are not quiet of the quality of collingwoods to pull this game plan off.
Another thing I noticed was how congested your forward line was, I would have thought you guys would like it much more open for Buddy and Roughy.
maybe Clarkson has it up side down, Maybe you are better flooding the defense and opening up your own forward line, what are your thoughts?

Rioli was quiet something by the way, skill was as good as gets.

No problem.

You make some good points.

Forward line did look crowded for mush of the night.

Cyril, for mine, did some amazing things, but I'd prefer him closer to goal.

And yes, when the zone was sliced open, it looked awful and we paid for it big time.

I wondered whether fitness had a part to play in it too - some of our players dropped their intensity.

 

[Spursfan]

We looked nothing like a team that some experts say will be challenging Collingwood

No one's challenging for Collingwood for the flag they're on another level at the moment

Leigh Matthews is available and should be on the radar.

He's not coaching anymore. He's said numerous times

 

[TheFourPillars]

No one's challenging for Collingwood for the flag they're on another level at the moment

He's not coaching anymore. He's said numerous times

Long way to go mate remember what they were saying about the bulldogs last year a lot of things can happen between now and october. who knows whose going to be the flavour of the month next month.

 

[TAITA]

No one's challenging for Collingwood for the flag they're on another level at the moment

He's not coaching anymore. He's said numerous times

Have to agree with TFP, Collingwood are perenial autumn front runners.

Their structure is hardly imposing.

 

[QuietB]

Over the back goals killed Hawthorn last night and have killed them for years.

It must be the most morale sapping thing possible for the players to work their arses off just to see the opposition pop it over the top to 5 free players and waltz into open goals. Last night it must have happened 10 times.

Hawks have to keep some sort of structure down back to protect the goals. Every top 4 team does. It seams that the Hawks players get sucked further and further and further up the ground until bang - turnover - no one home - goal!

Goals over the back is the single reason that the Hawks lost last night and this is a 100% coaching issue.

 

[wallyt99]

The question goes down to who should be - and who should NOT be in the forward line.

Last night early in the last - Both Birchall and Ladson were in the Froward 50 at the same time. Now I am all for 'building a wall' and trapping the ball in (I learnt that in Under 12's) - but the wall is at or behind the edge of the centre square - NOT inside the 50 metre arc.

When I saw Birchall get the ball I just thought 'Christ - Here we go goal on the rebound' and sure enough there was.



The forward line - is for FORWARDS....

Players like Buddy Franklin.... Jarryd Roughhead.... Cryil Rioli..... Osborne. Hell.... I would even let a few midfielders sneak in like Burgoyne.... Whitecross.... Savage..... IF it became congested.

Clinton Young is the only player who should be on or around the 50 metre arc.
Everyone else centre square or behind.

Christ.... this is seriously under 12's shit.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

At the centreline, the field is what, 120m wide? At the 50m line, it's probably only 60m.

Your 'last' line of the zone contains about 6 players. Setting up on the centre-line means they each have to cover 20m. At the 50m line it's only 10m.

It takes about 3 seconds to sprint 20m, and about 1.8 seconds to kick the ball that far. It takes ~1.7 seconds to sprint 10m, and about 1.6 seconds to kick that far.

A 6-man zone along the 50m arc requires a "cm perfect" kick, and the player recieving is still under pressure. At a breakthrough, there's still 150m to cover to reach the goals.

A 6-man zone along the centreline requires a "good kick", and a great one not only beats the zone, but puts the player into space as well. They are also only 100m from goals.

==============
All that said, I believe we've gone too far into the defensive forwards mantra. Every small forward of centre looks to stop their opponents drive - at times we had 3 forwards tagging their opponents. It means we are extremely predictable when bringing the ball in.

The days of dinosaur KPDs are over - Davis, Stevens, and even Rutten cut us up with their rebounding disposals. How?

I honestly believe if we played a traditional gameplan, we'd only be exposed by Gilham and Renouf. We have the depth and experience, and could play a much more defensively styled game, but we don't.

There's only so long you can put blind faith into the individual elements of a gameplan coming together. 08 started during the 06 pre-season, but only came together late-season in 08. How long until the work of the last 3 years is put together?

 

[THEHIGHFLYINGHAWKER]

seriously.... leave roughead one out in the goal square, he's a good overhead mark. Everyone else pushes to half forward and get back to old fashion full forward play. all this tactical bullshit seems to be getting us nowhere.

 

[Spursfan]

Have to agree with TFP, Collingwood are perenial autumn front runners.

Their structure is hardly imposing.

I want to agree, but being objective unless they get a bad run of injuries I can't see them losing more than 2 or 3 games this season at most.

seriously.... leave roughead one out in the goal square, he's a good overhead mark. Everyone else pushes to half forward and get back to old fashion full forward play. all this tactical bullshit seems to be getting us nowhere.

This, he looked good on the lead last night lets see more of it

 

[pipcoo]

seriously.... leave roughead one out in the goal square, he's a good overhead mark. Everyone else pushes to half forward and get back to old fashion full forward play. all this tactical bullshit seems to be getting us nowhere.

Well said,kicking the ball to a 1 on 3 contest JUST DOESN'T WORK.
It didn't work in 2009 or 2010 so don't do it in 2011
.
The CROWS just wanted the WIN more then we did, no RUN no WIN.

 

[Furn]

The same thing happens to the Pies when teams get thru the press quickly.

The key is not to miss tackles and make spoils etc. and dont turn it over. The plan was working and we scored goals from turnovers. Once the pressure dropped off a bit they got out the back and scored easy goals.

 

[Glenferrie Oval]

Over the back goals killed Hawthorn last night and have killed them for years.

It must be the most morale sapping thing possible for the players to work their arses off just to see the opposition pop it over the top to 5 free players and waltz into open goals. Last night it must have happened 10 times.

Hawks have to keep some sort of structure down back to protect the goals. Every top 4 team does. It seams that the Hawks players get sucked further and further and further up the ground until bang - turnover - no one home - goal!

Goals over the back is the single reason that the Hawks lost last night and this is a 100% coaching issue.

Yep, it was not just last night, it been happening for the last couple of season, it just that we let at least 3 or 4 goals (hay, 20 points) a game through the 'over the back' goals.
Blind Freddy could see that we were nackered ar 3/4 time and the crows were full of run. I was amazed that we kept continually clogging the half forward line at a stoppage as they continually won the ball and had a 'runner' break the line and 'over the back' it went for a goal.
Have a look at the lead up to the goal that after he kicked it the d*ckhead did the 'T' sign. Perfect example.
When we are knackered drop 1 players back and let everyone know that this is occurring. Can't hurt to try this.
At the moment we are going into every game 3 goals down.

 

[Great 2008]

I think the problem is we are not a hard running side..........not even in the same class as the Pies. Also why we will struggle against teams like the bombers again this year unfortunately.

The games I saw towards the end of last year.....when we borke from the oppositions defensive 50 we did not get forward quick enough to take advantage (as the Crows did) and our players looked shagged at 3/4 time.

Unfortunately the game plan we are probably best suited to is one similar to the what the Cats and Saints trotted out on Friday night (please no).........and why we seem to match up well against these two sides over the last few years.

 

[QuietB]

This is what I think happens;

1. Hawks win the ball and move it forward. Forward pressure is actually pretty good and the ball gets held up in the Hawks half.
2. As this continues more and more players are sucked into the contest. Hawks players definately getted sucked into the contest.
3. Opposition coaches are aware of this and instruct their players to sneak out the back into the space. We do not man these guys up.
4. Contest continues. 12v14 or whatever it is basically no different to 16v16 when it is that congested - so Hawks weight of numbers is not a significant advantage.
5. When the opposition wins the ball they are kicking over the congestion to a 2v4 or 3v5 or whatever it ends up being. That is a massive advantage to them with so much space.
6. With so many numbers numbers against and so much space to work with the Hawks defence is absolutely no hope at all.

The goals that the Hawks gave up as a result of this on the weekend are the reason they lost IMO. Not only the scores but the morale that they would have sapped from the players is massive.

You do not need every player on the ground to set up an effective zone. The Hawks have to leave enough defensive players at home to cover all the cheats sneaking out the back.

This flaw is being exploited in a massive way by opposition coaches and it has to be addressed. When players start to sneak out the back they have to be marked.

 

[QuietB]

And another thing, it is inexcusable that an opposition player should be in so much space over the back of zone that they can recieve a 55/60m kick under no pressure at all. They are under no pressure to mark the ball. And they are under no pressure to stop them playing on.

Maybe once is ok, things break down. But 4 or 5 or more times in a match? These guys have to be marked.

 

[The Post Man]

You are onto something there QuietB.

The zone did collapse in the front half, particularly through the corridor once the hawks turned the ball over. Whenever this occured, the crows were able to run the ball through the half arsed zone virtually uncontested. From there, 2-3 Crows forwards would push hard into their forward half - out numbering the Hawthorn defenders and most times kicking an uncontested goal.

The zone can and will work. The key is for all players to know and understand their roles within the zone and then be diciplined enough not to get sucked into the contest.

At this stage it is still a work in progress.

 

[Lord Mud of Glenferrie]

Hundreds of posts about our game plan.

Is any one prepared to bite the bullet and give a detailed description. And I mean a detailed description not an overall summary.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Over the back goals are nothing new.

It is just that the year we won the premiership we backed ourselves to kick more goals than the opposition most weeks because we played to our strengths with hard offensive running.

 

[gouhawks]

i've read a lot about Clarkson looking at other sports and implementing the zone and press structures of soccer etc... but one thing that must not be forgotten is that in soccer we have the offside rule but in our Aussie rules that doesn't apply! we got caught out a few times on Saturday night when the Crows players booted over the last line of defence to an open unmarked player and the result was an easy goal!! back to the drawing board AC!!